Chelsea vs Arsenal, 12:45, BT Sport

tigger123

tigger123 wrote: »

A deliberate handball in the box.

Why did you quote my post?

Panthro

LiamoSail wrote: »

Circumstances, you could argue that his abrasive management created.

Granted, he had huge competition in Barcelona, but that doesn't explain the lack of European success, or his failure last season when Barca were at their lowest ebb in a long time

how'd he get on at Inter?
Rhetorical question.
Jose's a fcukin' genius at management.

Andersonisgod

LiamoSail wrote: »

Circumstances, you could argue that his abrasive management created.

Granted, he had huge competition in Barcelona, but that doesn't explain the lack of European success, or his failure last season when Barca were at their lowest ebb in a long time

Real Madrid is a different situation to any other club, you could argue that his all-encompassing management style was never going to suit Real Madrid, also things like the Spanish national team being on such a high played against him as he looked to create an us vs them mentality.

monkey9

Deleted User wrote: »

So because the referee thought it was going in that makes it a correct decision? If the referee thinks someone is offside and calls it offside, and all the replays show that he wasn't offside does that mean the right call was made?

Different scenario and you know it.

monkey9

monkey9 wrote: »

Different scenario and you know it.

How? He made a mistake, simple as that. Hilarious that people who don't even know the guy can't admit it.

tigger123

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why did you quote my post?

I thought you were arguing that because the ball was going wide that it wasn't a red card.

Quazzie

tigger123 wrote: »

I thought you were arguing that because the ball was going wide that it wasn't a red card.

Do you think that a deliberate handball in the box is an automatic red card?

tigger123

tigger123 wrote: »

I thought you were arguing that because the ball was going wide that it wasn't a red card.

If people want to argue that a deliberate handball in the box is automatically a red (which a few probably will once they admit it wasn't going in) then that's a separate issue. The fact is the ball wasn't going in.

LiamoSail

Panthro wrote: »

how'd he get on at Inter?
Rhetorical question.
Jose's a fcukin' genius at management.

Nobody's disputing the fact he's a great manager

tigger123

Quazzie wrote: »

Do you think that a deliberate handball in the box is an automatic red card?

I can see why the ref sent him off, he thought the player handled it off the line.

LuckyLloyd

Arsenal's collapses against the teams that matter this year are astonishing. 6 - 0. Such a gutless display. Arsenal fans must be raging.

Quazzie

tigger123 wrote: »

I can see why the ref sent him off, he thought the player handled it off the line.

I can too. I said earlier that it is understandable why he was sent off. I don't think I ever denied that, but that doesn't make it the right decision.

tigger123

Quazzie wrote: »

I can too. I said earlier that it is understandable why he was sent off. I don't think I ever denied that, but that doesn't make it the right decision.

TBH, if it was reversed, and it was a Chelsea player sent off in those circumstances, I'd be more pissed at the player, than the ref.

tayto lover

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Arsenal's collapses against the teams that matter this year are astonishing. 6 - 0. Such a gutless display. Arsenal fans must be raging.

Haven't you a bit of moaning to do on your own match thread :D

Duck Soup

I don't think that Wenger's 'lost' the dressing room, but I do think that they're not exactly busting a gut to play for him. The players know that Wenger is there for as long as he wants, they also know Wenger's not the roaring and shouting type. So they can turn in lacklustre performances with little chance of either serious blowback or major instability.

monkey9

Deleted User wrote: »

How? He made a mistake, simple as that. Hilarious that people who don't even know the guy can't admit it.

Listen, if Ox swung a punch, a proper punch and he missed, it's still a red card. Ox deliberately made a goalkeeper save to prevent conceding a goal. It's a red card.

LiamoSail

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Real Madrid is a different situation to any other club, you could argue that his all-encompassing management style was never going to suit Real Madrid, also things like the Spanish national team being on such a high played against him as he looked to create an us vs them mentality.

It still dosent alter the fact he failed there. He could have adapted, but didn't.

As I said, great manager, and his achievements at Porto and Inter were huge. But failing at Real, irrespective of circumstances, shows he's not the greatest manager in the world right now.

As I said, great manager, but the finest? I think that's a bit extreme. There's plenty of managers who could have Chelsea performing as they are with that size of a budget

MisterAnarchy

The sending off decision and whether the ref got it right /wrong ,and the mistaken identity had no outcome on the game ,Arsenal would still have been 3-0 down and dead and buried even if the player wasnt sent off.

Quazzie

monkey9 wrote: »

Listen, if Ox swung a punch, a proper punch and he missed, it's still a red card. Ox deliberately made a goalkeeper save to prevent conceding a goal. It's a red card.

Simple question: Did Ox prevent a goal from being scored?

tigger123

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

The sending off decision and whether the ref got it right /wrong ,and the mistaken identity had no outcome on the game ,Arsenal would still have been 3-0 down and dead and buried even if the player wasnt sent off.

+1 The sending off didn't effect the outcome.

tigger123

tigger123 wrote: »

+1 The sending off didn't effect the outcome.

I can't remember a single person saying it did.

Andersonisgod

LiamoSail wrote: »

It still dosent alter the fact he failed there. He could have adapted, but didn't.

As I said, great manager, and his achievements at Porto and Inter were huge. But failing at Real, irrespective of circumstances, shows he's not the greatest manager in the world right now.

As I said, great manager, but the finest? I think that's a bit extreme. There's plenty of managers who could have Chelsea performing as they are with that size of a budget

Why would he adapt? He has a philosophy, he stays true to it. I don't see who can be considered better, he won the Champions League with Porto and Inter! Not to mention what he did at Chelsea.

I disagree entirely, I would argue that there is no manager who could have turned this Chelsea squad around so quickly, or have them playing with such conviction and belief in the system.

Quazzie

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I would argue that there is no manager who could have turned this Chelsea squad around so quickly, or have them playing with such conviction and belief in the system.

Aye, and to do it on such a small budget too. What a guy!!!

monkey9

Quazzie wrote: »

Simple question: Did Ox prevent a goal from being scored?

Yeah he did. It would have curled back in towards the inside of the post splendidly.

Prove that it wouldn't have!

Andersonisgod

Quazzie wrote: »

Aye, and to do it on such a small budget too. What a guy!!!

Big budgets come with big clubs.

Andersonisgod

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Why would he adapt? He has a philosophy, he stays true to it. I don't see who can be considered better, he won the Champions League with Porto and Inter! Not to mention what he did at Chelsea.

I disagree entirely, I would argue that there is no manager who could have turned this Chelsea squad around so quickly, or have them playing with such conviction and belief in the system.

Turn them around from what? Winning the Europa league last year? 15-4-4 form from last season (2.13 ppg compared to 2.23 this season). Chelsea were pathetically underperforming before Rafa came in, he got them pretty much back to where they should've been given their squad, Mourinho got to add players to that.

MisterAnarchy

LiamoSail wrote: »

It still dosent alter the fact he failed there. He could have adapted, but didn't.

As I said, great manager, and his achievements at Porto and Inter were huge. But failing at Real, irrespective of circumstances, shows he's not the greatest manager in the world right now.

As I said, great manager, but the finest? I think that's a bit extreme. There's plenty of managers who could have Chelsea performing as they are with that size of a budget

He is an overly defensive manager and he couldnt adapt his style to play open football at Real.

Chelsea have by and large been very poor to watch this season,they are a counter attacking side that try to win a game with one or two good moves but play poor football for most of the matches.

I thought Abramovich wanted Mourinho to make his Chelsea team play good football like prime Barcelona but Benitez's Chelsea were better to watch.
Its the same old counter attacking stuff that he employed at Chelsea before and at Inter and its painful to listen to his young players/eggs/building for the future bull.
You'd think he was managing an impoverished lower league team the way he carries on .

Quazzie

monkey9 wrote: »

Yeah he did. It would have curled back in towards the inside of the post splendidly.

Prove that it wouldn't have!

:rolleyes:

It's like arguing with a child.

Andersonisgod

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Turn them around from what? Winning the Europa league last year? 15-4-4 form from last season (2.13 ppg compared to 2.23 this season). Chelsea were pathetically underperforming before Rafa came in, he got them pretty much back to where they should've been given their squad, Mourinho got to add players to that.

Exactly, Europa League winning side who finished a mile off top. If you really think Mourinho come grind some of the performances from Chelsea that Mourinho has this season then I'd have to wonder if you simply have something against Mourinho or you or a huge Rafa Benitez fan.

monkey9

Quazzie wrote: »

:rolleyes:

It's like arguing with a child.

I know the feeling.

Quazzie

Andersonisgod wrote: »

If you really think Mourinho come grind some of the performances from Chelsea that Mourinho has this season

LiamoSail

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Why would he adapt? He has a philosophy, he stays true to it. I don't see who can be considered better, he won the Champions League with Porto and Inter! Not to mention what he did at Chelsea.

I disagree entirely, I would argue that there is no manager who could have turned this Chelsea squad around so quickly, or have them playing with such conviction and belief in the system.

Part of management is adapting. One size doesn't fit all. Look at David Moyes, did an excellent job at Everton but needed to adapt his style to that required as manager of United, and hasn't.

I'm not comparing Moyes to Mourinho, just citing him by way of example.

That Chelsea side are probably the best in the league. Yes, he's done very well, but has he done any better this season then Pelligrini or Rodgers? I don't see how he has. City will still go ahead of Chelsea if they win their games in hand,while Rodgers has a far inferior Liverpool side there or there abouts

As I said, his achievement at Porto and Inter were phenomenal, but he has done nothing at Chelsea, either in this period or the previous that would be grounds to suggest he's the worlds best. If he were, he'd have succeeded at Real

Andersonisgod

Quazzie wrote: »

That should obviously say Rafa, I'm currently watching Cardiff vs Liverpool while also continuing that rather tedious debate.

Andersonisgod

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Exactly, Europa League winning side who finished a mile off top.[

Because they had a clueless manager until Rafa came in.

If you really think Mourinho come grind some of the performances from Chelsea that Mourinho has this season

Well when you put it like that...

...then I'd have to wonder if you simply have something against Mourinho or you or a huge Rafa Benitez fan.

I don't like Mourinho as a person. I don't think he's the best in the world (tm). He's performing to where any top class manage should be with what he has at his disposal at Chelsea.

MisterAnarchy

Quazzie wrote: »

:rolleyes:

It's like arguing with a child.

Seriously that was a blatant red card ,it was blatant cheating ,he obviously thought the ball was going in,why else would he have handled it ?
The shot was hit quite hard and it took a few slow motion replays to work out if it the initial shot was going in ,I cant see how anyone would think the ref got it wrong.

Quazzie

Andersonisgod wrote: »

That should obviously say Rafa, I'm currently watching Cardiff vs Liverpool while also continuing that rather tedious debate.

Wasn't a cheap dig, I honestly didn't know what you were trying to say. I'm assuming now you meant "Rafa could" in place of "Mourinho come"

Quazzie

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Seriously that was a blatant red card ,it was blatant cheating ,he obviously thought the ball was going in,why else would he have handled it ?
The shot was hit quite hard and it took a few slow motion replays to work out if it the initial shot was going in ,I cant see how anyone would think the ref got it wrong.

Because it wasn't going in. It really is as simple as that to be honest.

Andersonisgod

LiamoSail wrote: »

Part of management is adapting. One size doesn't fit all. Look at David Moyes, did an excellent job at Everton but needed to adapt his style to that required as manager of United, and hasn't.

I'm not comparing Moyes to Mourinho, just citing him by way of example.

That Chelsea side are probably the best in the league. Yes, he's done very well, but has he done any better this season then Pelligrini or Rodgers? I don't see how he has. City will still go ahead of Chelsea if they win their games in hand,while Rodgers has a far inferior Liverpool side there or there abouts

As I said, his achievement at Porto and Inter were phenomenal, but he has done nothing at Chelsea, either in this period or the previous that would be grounds to suggest he's the worlds best. If he were, he'd have succeeded at Real

Nothing, first title in 50 years, overtaking Arsenal's invincibles, creating a side that would form the bedrock of the side that would go on to lead the club to their most successful period in the club's history. Currently top of the league this season despite having a squad bereft of a top striker and with a centre back that the beloved Rafa Benitez seemed to think was finished. A fantastic record against the top sides this season and an upcoming Champions League quarter final. Nothing.

City's squad is far stronger with more depth. We have yet to see if Rodgers can keep Liverpool at the top season after season.

I love that we can ignore circumstances. We all know there were existential circumstances that hindered his run at Madrid but who cares? If he wins more leagues and a Champions League at Chelsea, who will care?

Andersonisgod

Andersonisgod wrote: »

We all know there were existential circumstances that hindered his run at Madrid but who cares? If he wins more leagues and a Champions League at Chelsea, who will care?

Not you, we get it.

Andersonisgod

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Because they had a clueless manager until Rafa came in.

Well when you put it like that...

I don't like Mourinho as a person. I don't think he's the best in the world (tm). He's performing to where any top class manage should be with what he has at his disposal at Chelsea.

We've had top class managers. I'd say that not since Mourinho left have I seen a Chelsea side play with such conviction and belief in a system. A Chelsea side playing with real togetherness all with the same aim, like cogs in a machine. The closest we've come since Mourinho left was under Hiddink.

MisterAnarchy

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I love that we can ignore circumstances. We all know there were existential circumstances that hindered his run at Madrid but who cares?

I find it thoroughly bizarre that you can be such a fan of Mourinho and also Barcelona FC .Its very strange.

Andersonisgod

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

I find it thoroughly bizarre that you can be such a fan of Mourinho and also Barcelona FC .Its very strange.

I know, I'm an entirely 3 dimensional person with layers and various preferences and respect for certain traits. Bizarre.

Turtwig

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Wengers suicidal tactics played right into his hands.
Every man and his dog knew how Chelsea would setup today and Wenger played right into his hands with his high back line and weak central midfield.
Mourinho couldnt believe his luck I'd imagine.

This. Arsenal played to all Chelsea's strengths. Teams in Spain just let Mourinho's team have the ball and try to break them down. It lead to less exciting affairs but it avoided them being trounced. Why, oh why, Arsenal missing so many players, chose to stay play that way is beyond me. It's almost as Bad as Barcelona insisting on maintaining a High Line with an unfit Lionel Messi and Bayern Munich's gameplan set to exploit it at every opportunity. At least in that game you had excuse that the coach was recovering from cancer and an idealogue of a certain philosophy and a novice in his role. In this game it was suicidal stuff from a guy managing his 1,000th game. I can't understand it.

LiamoSail

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Nothing, first title in 50 years, overtaking Arsenal's invincibles, creating a side that would form the bedrock of the side that would go on to lead the club to their most successful period in the club's history. Currently top of the league this season despite having a squad bereft of a top striker and with a centre back that the beloved Rafa Benitez seemed to think was finished. A fantastic record against the top sides this season and an upcoming Champions League quarter final. Nothing.

City's squad is far stronger with more depth. We have yet to see if Rodgers can keep Liverpool at the top season after season.

I love that we can ignore circumstances. We all know there were existential circumstances that hindered his run at Madrid but who cares? If he wins more leagues and a Champions League at Chelsea, who will care?

Come on, as well as Mourinho did, surely it's apparent that any good manager, with such a budget at Chelsea, would have done similar.

As for Rodgers, agree its early doors, but if its too early to judge Rodgers at Liverpool, surely the seamen applies to Mourinho at Chelsea this time around

Mourinho is remarkably successful at what he does, but if were going to talk about him being the finest, then were neglecting two fundamental attributes in managers that have been considered such, an ability and bravery to bring through young players and integrate them coupled with an ability to produce an attacking, attractive style of football. With the budget Mourinho has had at both Real and Chelsea, failing on both counts demonstrates his limitations

Andersonisgod

LiamoSail wrote: »

Come on, as well as Mourinho did, surely it's apparent that any good manager, with such a budget at Chelsea, would have done similar.

As for Rodgers, agree its early doors, but if its too early to judge Rodgers at Liverpool, surely the seamen applies to Mourinho at Chelsea this time around

Mourinho is remarkably successful at what he does, but if were going to talk about him being the finest, then were neglecting two fundamental attributes in managers that have been considered such, an ability and bravery to bring through young players and integrate them coupled with an ability to produce an attacking, attractive style of football. With the budget Mourinho has had at both Real and Chelsea, failing on both counts demonstrates his limitations

I'm not sure if you missed the last 7 years or so but other managers have had that budget and team, intact other managers have had a more experienced, settled team of proven winners, Mourinho is currently building a team. None of those managers looked like replicating or out-doing the first Mourinho reign or have looked like building a dynasty which Mourinho threatened to do and is threatening to do again.

2 Champions Leagues, 1 UEFA Cup, 2 Premier Leagues, 2 Serie A's, 1 La Liga and a host of domestic cups mean that I can prejudge him a little.

Why is that essential? By the way, there are players in this Chelsea side who are quite young who are currently blossoming under Mourinho. Why is that essential? He wins, he wins games, he wins trophies. Obviously I missed the bit where he failed at Chelsea because I've only seen a glorious side flourish under the Portuguese man of war.

MaroonAndGreen

Jesus wheres all this Mourinho failing at Madrid talk coming from?

3 seasons at Madrid

2010/11:

League 2nd with 92 points
Champions League Semi Final
1st Copa Del Rey win in 18 years

2011/12:

League 1st with 100 points (record total)
Champions League Semi
Copa Del Rey Quarter Final

2012/13:

League 2nd with 85 points
Champions League Semi
Copa Dey Rey Runners-Up

Jose faced competition from the best team Spain has ever seen (Pep's Barcelona) and still achieved the above. How on earth that can be seen as a failure I dont know.

Some people will try anything to knock him.

LiamoSail

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I'm not sure if you missed the last 7 years or so but other managers have had that budget and team, intact other managers have had a more experienced, settled team of proven winners, Mourinho is currently building a team. None of those managers looked like replicating or out-doing the first Mourinho reign or have looked like building a dynasty which Mourinho threatened to do and is threatening to do again.

2 Champions Leagues, 1 UEFA Cup, 2 Premier Leagues, 2 Serie A's, 1 La Liga and a host of domestic cups mean that I can prejudge him a little.

Again, doing better thean most former Chelsea managers doesn't necessarily equate to being the best manager in the world

Why is that essential? By the way, there are players in this Chelsea side who are quite young who are currently blossoming under Mourinho. Why is that essential? He wins, he wins games, he wins trophies. Obviously I missed the bit where he failed at Chelsea because I've only seen a glorious side flourish under the Portuguese man of war.

I never he said he failed at Chelsea, he did well there. But he did no better than you would expect any of the others who could be described as the finest manager in the world could have.

An inability to bring through players shows a reliance on the cheque book and isn't sustainable in most cases. The great managers in history have all brought through players, yet Mourinho's echoed in this regard is abysmal. There maybe some young players in the Chelsea side, but these are players that were playing European football long before Mourinho rocked up.

As for the style of play, well it's down to personal preference. However, with a budget the size of his there's something wrong when the description of Chelsea; organised, hard to beat, physical, defensive, could easily be confused with that of Stoke during the Pulis reign.

Obviously we're not going agree on this, while I concede Mourinho is an excellent manager, without a prolonged period of success at a club not spending far an above what their rivals are, and without bringing through young players, he'll always be in the shadow of the likes of Ferguson, Guadiola, Wenger

LiamoSail

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

Jesus wheres all this Mourinho failing at Madrid talk coming from?

3 seasons at Madrid

2010/11:

League 2nd with 92 points
Champions League Semi Final
1st Copa Del Rey win in 18 years

2011/12:

League 1st with 100 points (record total)
Champions League Semi
Copa Del Rey Quarter Final

2012/13:

League 2nd with 85 points
Champions League Semi
Copa Dey Rey Runners-Up

Jose faced competition from the best team Spain has ever seen (Pep's Barcelona) and still achieved the above. How on earth that can be seen as a failure I dont know.

Some people will try anything to knock him.

Dress it up however you like. A league and a cup in a three year stint with Real is not the return of the worlds greatest manager.

MaroonAndGreen

LiamoSail wrote: »

Dress it up however you like. A league and a cup in a three year stint with Real is not the return of the worlds greatest manager.

Very easy to say that without taking circumstances into account.

For the previous 3 seasons there was no silverware at all in Madrid!!!

cathalio11

Mourinho is a victim of his own success when it comes to Madrid.

His success with Inter and Chelsea makes Madrid look lackluster, but he still did well there. He was a poison to the football club eventually though and had to go.