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Parking and Apartment rental dispute.

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24

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    #32
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Thomas D wrote: »
    He has agreement from the landlord and agent that parking should be provided. Therefore a contract.

    Prove it.


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    #33
    The_Morrigan
    Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    Thomas D wrote: »

    If it were me, I'd completely stop paying rent. An absentee landlord is great for free lodging. You tried playing by the rules now you might as well profit. Maybe rent out a space from a neighour in the mean time.

    Mod Note: do not give advice that is contrary to the RTA 2004 and that encourages taking advantage of absentee landlords.


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    #34
    Thomas D
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 554 ✭✭✭Thomas D


    The_Morrigan wrote: »
    Mod Note: do not give advice that is contrary to the RTA 2004 and that encourages taking advantage of absentee landlords.

    I can give whatever advice I want. Legal advice is banned on boards.ie so give yourself a card.


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    #35
    Thomas D
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 554 ✭✭✭Thomas D


    djimi wrote: »
    Prove it.

    You just put it in writing into the PRTB. Done. It is a tribunal and not a court of law.


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    #36
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Thomas D wrote: »
    You just put it in writing into the PRTB. Done. It is a tribunal and not a court of law.

    Put what in writing? Tenant says I have a parking space, landlord says no you dont, lease backs up landlords claim. How do you expect the tenant to prove otherwise?


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    #37
    neckedit
    Registered Users Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭neckedit


    Thomas D wrote: »
    You just put it in writing into the PRTB. Done. It is a tribunal and not a court of law.

    What??
    Its not in the lease!
    Im sorry, but you cant assume the space comes with the property and putting it in writting does what exactly? If I put pen to paper and claim you owe me 10 grand......does that prove anything?

    OP, did you see the apt on Daft or any site that may have a copy of the add that states parking is included??


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    #38
    Thomas D
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 554 ✭✭✭Thomas D


    neckedit wrote: »
    What??
    Its not in the lease!
    Im sorry, but you cant assume the space comes with the property and putting it in writting does what exactly? If I put pen to paper and claim you owe me 10 grand......does that prove anything?

    OP, did you see the apt on Daft or any site that may have a copy of the add that states parking is included??

    That is how the tribunal works. They look at all of the evidence. On balance they would take the tenants side unless the landlord had a convincing argument and didn't look a shifty eyed liar. Doubtful he'd even turn up.

    Welcome to the real world boys.


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    #39
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Thomas D wrote: »
    That is how the tribunal works. They look at all of the evidence. On balance they would take the tenants side unless the landlord had a convincing argument and didn't look a shifty eyed liar. Doubtful he'd even turn up.

    Welcome to the real world boys.

    The landlord has a convincing argument; a lease that makes no mention of a parking space.


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    #40
    Thomas D
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 554 ✭✭✭Thomas D


    djimi wrote: »
    The landlord has a convincing argument; a lease that makes no mention of a parking space.

    That would carry very little weight. To an barstool solicitor that might sound crazy but again you have to understand what a tribunal is about.


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    #41
    The_Morrigan
    Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    Thomas D wrote: »
    That would carry very little weight. To an barstool solicitor that might sound crazy but again you have to understand what a tribunal is about.

    A tribunal is a fact finding mission...the lease which the entire tenancy is based on doesn't include parking. That's pretty water tight with regards facts.


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    #42
    neckedit
    Registered Users Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭neckedit


    Thomas D wrote: »
    That is how the tribunal works. They look at all of the evidence. On balance they would take the tenants side unless the landlord had a convincing argument and didn't look a shifty eyed liar. Doubtful he'd even turn up.

    Welcome to the real world boys.

    Thanks for the patronising and condesention....always an intelligent way to get your point across and make it believable.......well played!!

    The OP needs some sort of proof that the space was agreed......I recently looked at a place where the LL swore blind there was parking.....not stated in add or terms of lease.......it had none....I checked it out fully...... Last managed building I was in I triple checked....even asked the agent to show me where it was. Im not trying to sound harsh OP but, Not all apts come with Spots..even though they are numbered or if the MC give out permits, the permits belong to the owner of the Apt and can do with them as they wish.
    The agent really is the one to be talking to if you honestly feel you were mis sold the benifits of the property.


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    #43
    Thomas D
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 554 ✭✭✭Thomas D


    The_Morrigan wrote: »
    A tribunal is a fact finding mission...the lease which the entire tenancy is based on doesn't include parking. That's pretty water tight with regards facts.

    An entire tenancy is not based on a lease. It is part of the story and only comes into play when the argument is about fixed terms.
    Some of you really need to read the 'tribunal findings" at the end of each hearing.
    http://www.prtb.ie/dispute-resolution/tribunals/tribunal-reports-orders/2013


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    #44
    Santa Cruz
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Santa Cruz


    A tribunal will look at all evidence that is available regarding the tenancy and ask themselves the following:

    Is availability of parking mentioned in the lease Yes/No
    When the property was advertised was parking availability mentioned in the ad Yes/No.
    If the parking is enclosed did the landlord/agent provide a zapper to the tenant Yes/No.


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    #45
    Thomas D
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 554 ✭✭✭Thomas D


    It's usually mentioned in the ad. You should be able to dig up a cached version of the ad on daft.


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    #46
    Paulw
    Registered Users Posts: 13,381 ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    davo10 wrote: »
    What have the clamping company said about this situation? Have you explained that you are a tenant but cannot get discs from LL.

    It has nothing to do with the clamping company. No permit - vehicle clamped. Simple.

    The fact that the landlord has the permits has nothing to do with the clamping company.

    The whole issue is simply between tenant and landlord.


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    #47
    neckedit
    Registered Users Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭neckedit


    Thomas D wrote: »
    It's usually mentioned in the ad. You should be able to dig up a cached version of the ad on

    But I thought all you had to do is write it down and hand it in to The Tribunal and boom sorted?
    Slams it into reverse.


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    #48
    Thomas D
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 554 ✭✭✭Thomas D


    neckedit wrote: »
    Thomas D wrote: »
    It's usually mentioned in the ad. You should be able to dig up a cached version of the ad on

    But I thought all you had to do is write it down and hand it in to The Tribunal and boom sorted?
    Slams it into reverse.

    Correct.


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    #49
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    djimi wrote: »
    No such things as assumptions here; if the space is not mentioned on the lease then its going to be a difficult case to fight to prove that its part of the tenancy.

    Not correct. I own an apartment which has an allocated space with the apartment number painted on the space. The allocated space was part of the purchase agreement. A few years ago the management company started this clamping crack with tags because the apartments are near a busy train stop and commuters were parking there. My car was clamped while I was in there doing maintenance. I refused to pay and they were about to tow when I informed them that they were taking my car which was legally parked IN MY PROPERTY. A quick phone call to head office and they removed the clamp and apologised. So djimi, if the OP is renting the property and a defined car park space is part of that property, well you can figure out the rest for yourself.


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    #50
    neckedit
    Registered Users Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭neckedit


    davo10 wrote: »
    Not correct. I own an apartment which has an allocated space with the apartment number painted on the space. The allocated space was part of the purchase agreement. A few years ago the management company started this clamping crack with tags because the apartments are near a busy train stop and commuters were parking there. My car was clamped while I was in there doing maintenance. I refused to pay and they were about to tow when I informed them that they were taking my car which was legally parked IN MY PROPERTY. A quick phone call to head office and they removed the clamp and apologised. So djimi, if the OP is renting the property and a defined car park space is part of that property, well you can figure out the rest for yourself.

    "IF" is the key word here.......


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    #51
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    Any development that has apartment numbers painted on spaces is a massive security risk. Apartment numbers and space numbers/letters should be different so as not to identify empty units. It would be rare that unit numbers correspond with spaces, OP can you confirm if yours do? Much harder to prove if they don't


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    #52
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Paulw wrote: »
    It has nothing to do with the clamping company. No permit - vehicle clamped. Simple..

    Ah, wrong. If the parking space is defined for each property and formed part of the purchase agreement then OP is legally parking on part of the property he is renting and the clampers would have no right to charge him for it. Simpler.


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    #53
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    neckedit wrote: »
    "IF" is the key word here.......

    Hence the question in my first post to OP " is it allocated parking?", the replies came immediately (incorrectly) that it doesn't matter.


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    #54
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    athtrasna wrote: »
    Any development that has apartment numbers painted on spaces is a massive security risk. Apartment numbers and space numbers/letters should be different so as not to identify empty units. It would be rare that unit numbers correspond with spaces, OP can you confirm if yours do? Much harder to prove if they don't

    Athtrasna, it's a massive pain in the ass. Owners/tenants get mightily pissed off when someone parks in their space.

    By the way the clampers didn't last too long there after one got into an argument with an owner who's car he was about to tow and hit him.


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    #55
    Paulw
    Registered Users Posts: 13,381 ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    davo10 wrote: »
    If the parking space is defined for each property and formed part of the purchase agreement then OP is legally parking on part of the property he is renting. Simpler.

    IF. But, if the parking is not in the purchase agreement, or if the agreement just states that there is a specific parking space mapped, then you may be correct.

    However, more often than not, the public area, including parking spaces, are common area, under the control of the management company. Parking spaces are then allocated to the units. This allocation is subject to the management company, and may be subject to change.

    Also, with common area allocated parking, the management company are entitled to bring in any regulation of parking they desire, including clamping and permit parking.

    You have no idea how the parking is allocated. Neither would the OP. So, for the current situation, it is purely between the OP and the landlord.


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    #56
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Paulw wrote: »
    IF. But, if the parking is not in the purchase agreement, or if the agreement just states that there is a specific parking space mapped, then you may be correct.

    However, more often than not, the public area, including parking spaces, are common area, under the control of the management company. Parking spaces are then allocated to the units. This allocation is subject to the management company, and may be subject to change.

    Also, with common area allocated parking, the management company are entitled to bring in any regulation of parking they desire, including clamping and permit parking.

    You have no idea how the parking is allocated. Neither would the OP. So, for the current situation, it is purely between the OP and the landlord.

    Again, read my first post, it starts with a simple question, I made no assumption but others posted that it wouldn't matter either way, it would. Simplest.


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    #57
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    davo10 wrote: »
    Not correct. I own an apartment which has an allocated space with the apartment number painted on the space. The allocated space was part of the purchase agreement. A few years ago the management company started this clamping crack with tags because the apartments are near a busy train stop and commuters were parking there. My car was clamped while I was in there doing maintenance. I refused to pay and they were about to tow when I informed them that they were taking my car which was legally parked IN MY PROPERTY. A quick phone call to head office and they removed the clamp and apologised. So djimi, if the OP is renting the property and a defined car park space is part of that property, well you can figure out the rest for yourself.

    If the space is part of the purchase agreement then the landlord owns (or has exclusive use of the space). This is not to say that the landlord is renting said space along with the apartment however. It would depend how the lease is worded I would imagine.


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    #58
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    In fairness, my original point was that if a space is not mentioned in the lease then it is going to make the OPs case tricker to fight. Im not suggesting that it will be impossible, or that no mention of the space in the lease automatically means they dont have the use of it, but its nowhere near as straightforward as if the OP has an agreement with the landlord in writing that allows them use of the space as part of the rent. If the landlord wants to be a prick about it then it becomes a case for the PRTB to decide, and the whole thing gets a lot messier. And all the while the OP does not have use of the space as they have no permit and will continue to get clamped.


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    #59
    Grandpa Hassan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭Grandpa Hassan


    djimi wrote: »
    If the space is part of the purchase agreement then the landlord owns (or has exclusive use of the space). This is not to say that the landlord is renting said space along with the apartment however. It would depend how the lease is worded I would imagine.

    Correct. The car park space might not be rented with the apartment even if it has the same number. The cost of my space was rolled up into the apartment cost for the purposes of the mortgage, but is completely separate from the apartment, with it's own title deeds, and can be sold separately. I rent out the apartment now, but the numbered space that goes with it is not part of the agreement, and if my tenant uses it they will be clamped.


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    #60
    Grandpa Hassan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭Grandpa Hassan


    davo10 wrote: »
    Ah, wrong. If the parking space is defined for each property and formed part of the purchase agreement then OP is legally parking on part of the property he is renting and the clampers would have no right to charge him for it. Simpler.

    It is likely that the space has a separate title than the apartment, even if it was effectively one purchase, so the tenant would need explicit permission in writing to use it. It can't be assumed the space is part of the property that is being rented. Certainly isn't in my case.


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    #61
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Grandpa Hassan wrote: »
    It is likely that the space has a separate title than the apartment, even if it was effectively one purchase, so the tenant would need explicit permission in writing to use it. It can't be assumed the space is part of the property that is being rented. Certainly isn't in my case.

    It is in my case, the tenant rents the apartment and the space that comes with it. So your tenant pays you rent but isn't entitled to use the car park space that comes with it? Nice old boy you are.

    I do not remember there being two seperate titles or deeds for apartment and space and to be honest I'm not going to contact the solicitor and ask him.

    As for it not being mentioned, if the space is part of the property being rented, why would it need to be mentioned, the OP would be renting the property. If the lease doesn't specifically mention the toilet in the property, does that mean the tenant doesn't have a right to use it?


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