Ivor Bell arrested and charged in Jean McConville murder investigation

maccored

Fratton Fred wrote: »

And people wonder why this case is high profile.

its high profile because its a political football

holyhead

Its high profile because

1. She was a woman.
2. A widow.
3. Mother of 10 children.
4. She was one of the disappeared.
5. It's a case which Gerry Adams have been accused of being directly/indirectly involved though opponents of this line of thinking say both Brendan Hughes and Dolours Price(who linked Adams to this murder rightly/wrongly) had an axe to grind with Adams and were mentally unstable.

Price and Hughes were both in the IRA and maintain Gerry Adams was too though Adams has consistently denied this for over 40 years.

Happyman42

twowheelsgood wrote: »

It is still relevant because republicans invariably insist that the past efforts of PIRA in attempting to bring about a united Ireland by force, though a majority disapproved of force, was justified.

And if it wasn't wrong in the past, why would it be wrong in the future, if their desired ends fail to be realized by constitutional politics?

The danger of a return to violence is still there, you only have to look at the agitation coming from the Unionist community. That is the reality.
Once again there won't be any referendums looking for your, or my approval whether or not it is right or wrong.
Instead of the blame game what is needed is a proper truth & reconciliation commission, if SF and the IRA fail to fully take part in that (as they say they will), then I will be first on here to criticise them.
For now, all I can do is criticise those who are blocking such a move and those who continue to call for onesided truth.

Happyman42

holyhead wrote: »

Its high profile because

1. She was a woman.
2. A widow.
3. Mother of 10 children.
4. She was one of the disappeared.
5. It's a case which Gerry Adams have been accused of being directly/indirectly involved though opponents of this line of thinking say both Brendan Hughes and Dolours Price(who linked Adams to this murder rightly/wrongly) had an axe to grind with Adams and were mentally unstable.

1. Loads of women died in the troubles.
2. Widows where created and died in the troubles.
3. Plenty of mothers died in the troubles
4. There where plenty of disappeared.
5. That is the political football .

K-9

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

The other serious issue around this case is the question of why was Mrs McConville's disappearance not investigated by the RUC until the 1990's?

Do you mean it wasn't taken seriously, was parked or did they never really investigate it at all?

I could see why the investigation might have had little success given the circumstances of the time, it was hard enough for the family to get any answers so I don't know what the RUC's chances were. Or are you saying there was something more sinister going on?

Fratton Fred

Happyman42 wrote: »

1. Loads of women died in the troubles.
2. Widows where created and died in the troubles.
3. Plenty of mothers died in the troubles
4. There where plenty of disappeared.
5. That is the political football .

Lots of deaths are used as political footballs and if Gerry, as claimed, was part of an untouchable wing of the IRA, I'm sure there's plenty more dirt on him.

I get the impression though, that this particular murder didn't sit right with a lot of the people involved, which is why it is talked about even within republican ranks.

Fratton Fred

K-9 wrote: »

Do you mean it wasn't taken seriously, was parked or did they never really investigate it at all?

I could see why the investigation might have had little success given the circumstances of the time, it was hard enough for the family to get any answers so I don't know what the RUC's chances were. Or are you saying there was something more sinister going on?

The ombudsman included details of the RUC case notes and it didn't go much beyond "woman goes missing".

maccored

this one seems quite firmly to be aimed at getting rid of Adams. Could that be because SF is on the rise politically? Yes, probably. Thats why its a terrible thing to note that this particular case is cynically being used as a political football. The main political clout in ireland isnt too worried about justice for the mcconvilles - they want to get rid of some competition. (IMO)

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Lots of deaths are used as political footballs and if Gerry, as claimed, was part of an untouchable wing of the IRA, I'm sure there's plenty more dirt on him.

I get the impression though, that this particular murder didn't sit right with a lot of the people involved, which is why it is talked about even within republican ranks.

Happyman42

Fratton Fred wrote: »

an untouchable wing of the IRA,

What was an untouchable wing of the IRA?

twowheelsgood

maccored wrote: »

this one seems quite firmly to be aimed at getting rid of Adams. Could that be because SF is on the rise politically? Yes, probably.

This has been suggested a couple of times already but a little reflection will reveal what nonsense it is. All of this was discussed when Gerry Adams sought election in Louth, I think even the McConvile family mounted a campaign?

And still Adams, if I recall correctly, was second only to Enda Kenny in terms of the numbers that supported him. For whatever reason, the good people of Louth were not too bothered about these allegations. And I doubt that they are for turning.

The idea that his opponents would again orchestrate the same campaign to discredit Adams when it totally failed the last time is just nonsense. It is being discussed now because it was always one of the high profile cases of the troubles and because it is back in the news. No great conspiracy I’m afraid.

maccored

twowheelsgood wrote: »

The idea that his opponents would again orchestrate the same campaign to discredit Adams when it totally failed the last time is just nonsense. It is being discussed now because it was always one of the high profile cases of the troubles and because it is back in the news. No great conspiracy I’m afraid.

and yet the main focus on Ivor Bell is what will he say to incriminate Adams ... jaysus lad, open your eyes there.

holyhead

I think people, particularly in the South were horrified that widow, mother of 10 young children would be taken out, murdered and then disappeared. Maybe if you lived in the North you could possibly begin to understand why this happened, ie alleged informant allied to the general poliltical climate and treatment of Catholics, but to most people it seemed a barbaric and inhumane thing to do.

K-9

On the other hand McGuinness didn't do that great in the Presidential election when questions got asked about his past, seemed to kill a lot of the momentum in his campaign.

Happyman42

twowheelsgood wrote: »

This has been suggested a couple of times already but a little reflection will reveal what nonsense it is. All of this was discussed when Gerry Adams sought election in Louth, I think even the McConvile family mounted a campaign?

And still Adams, if I recall correctly, was second only to Enda Kenny in terms of the numbers that supported him. For whatever reason, the good people of Louth were not too bothered about these allegations. And I doubt that they are for turning.

The idea that his opponents would again orchestrate the same campaign to discredit Adams when it totally failed the last time is just nonsense. It is being discussed now because it was always one of the high profile cases of the troubles and because it is back in the news. No great conspiracy I’m afraid.

It is widely feared that there are many voters looking for alternatives. They need to be 'repulsed'.

maccored

holyhead wrote: »

I think people, particularly in the South were horrified that widow, mother of 10 young children would be taken out, murdered and then disappeared. Maybe if you lived in the North you could possibly begin to understand why this happened, ie alleged informant allied to the general poliltical climate and treatment of Catholics, but to most people it seemed a barbaric and inhumane thing to do.

It was a barbaric and inhumane thing to do. Problem was, it wasnt the only one - thats the kind of thing that was happening at the time. I doubt anyone will say what went on in the north was a good thing. It happened all the same.

Happyman42

holyhead wrote: »

I think people, particularly in the South were horrified that widow, mother of 10 young children would be taken out, murdered and then disappeared. Maybe if you lived in the North you could possibly begin to understand why this happened, ie alleged informant allied to the general poliltical climate and treatment of Catholics, but to most people it seemed a barbaric and inhumane thing to do.

They weren't horrified enough and successive governments stood idly by as barbaric act after barbaric act was carried out.

holyhead

Happyman42 wrote: »

They weren't horrified enough and successive governments stood idly by as barbaric act after barbaric act was carried out.

What did you want a full scale invasion by the South? Really?????????

Godge

Happyman42 wrote: »

The subtle changing of what I said....which was, 'they believed it was a war'.
My own opinion was not offered.

Just to remind you what started this discussion

Happyman42 wrote: »

The motivation for doing that is important. If she was indeed giving sensitive information that endangered others then unfortunately that has to be taken into account, just as we must take into account how other armies and governments have dealt with informers throughout history.

The goalposts have shifted so many times since then.

holyhead

Its weird that a memorial seat to Brendan Hughes former IRA hunger striker was desecrated in County Louth just before the general election an election where Gerry Adams subsequently won a dail seat. Normally Republican Momuments are respected. Given his impeccable republican credentials I cant see Adams having any connection to this which leaves you wondering who did it. Even those who loyalties would be to Adams would not surely desecrate a memorial to a hunger striker????????

Happyman42

Godge wrote: »

Just to remind you what started this discussion




The goalposts have shifted so many times since then.

I merely referred to them, as they refer to themselves.

guinnessdrinker

K-9 wrote: »

Do you mean it wasn't taken seriously, was parked or did they never really investigate it at all?

I could see why the investigation might have had little success given the circumstances of the time, it was hard enough for the family to get any answers so I don't know what the RUC's chances were. Or are you saying there was something more sinister going on?

I have no idea why the RUC seem to have ignored her dissapearance even though they obviously knew about it.

Link

Fratton Fred

Happyman42 wrote: »

What was an untouchable wing of the IRA?

The unrecogniseable, untouchable super secret special ops arm, or whatever it was he was accused of being the leader of.

FWIW, I don't think Gerry did give the order as accused, although I'm sure he was aware it had happened.

Pat McGeown has also been named.

Godge

Happyman42 wrote: »

I merely referred to them, as they refer to themselves.

Will you refer to the British Army as peacekeepers in Northern Ireland as that's what they referred to themselves when they arrived?

Not a chance in hell.

You have lost your game of twister, falling over as you get caught up by the jumbled words you already posted.

Happyman42

Godge wrote: »

Will you refer to the British Army as peacekeepers in Northern Ireland as that's what they referred to themselves when they arrived?

That worked out well didn't it?:D

Not a chance in hell.

You have lost your game of twister, falling over as you get caught up by the jumbled words you already posted.

Deflect all you want Godge...transparency is your forté

Busted Flat.

K-9 wrote: »

Do you mean it wasn't taken seriously, was parked or did they never really investigate it at all?

I could see why the investigation might have had little success given the circumstances of the time, it was hard enough for the family to get any answers so I don't know what the RUC's chances were. Or are you saying there was something more sinister going on?[/QUOTEI

I hate to keep repeating this, but the simple answer is release the First Gloucesters Regiment operational diaries, that should shed some light on the whole matter. The Divis flats had more observation posts by this regiment than other area in NI. They would have been aware of her situation on that night.
Release the diaries let us know what the army are hiding.

Nodin

walshb wrote: »

I think a certain amount of evil was there. To take a human, and to shoot her dead, and to orphan 9-10 children does indeed take some amount of evil.

Silly talk, tbh.

K-9

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

I have no idea why the RUC seem to have ignored her dissapearance even though they obviously knew about it.

Link

Busted Flat. wrote: »

I hate to keep repeating this, but the simple answer is release the First Gloucesters Regiment operational diaries, that should shed some light on the whole matter. The Divis flats had more observation posts by this regiment than other area in NI. They would have been aware of her situation on that night.
Release the diaries let us know what the army are hiding.

Reading between the lines of the solicitors statement and going on posts on this thread, yep, I don't think my "sure the RUC wouldn't have expected much help" reasoning stacks up at all.

Assuming she was an informer, and I find it hard to believe the IRA just abducted her for no reason (even though I doubt an IRA military court was very sympathetic to a mother with issues, as modern day legitimate courts would be now), the lack of investigation is very worrying.

It just seems sad, common decent concern for another human being seemed so lacking by the IRA and the security forces.

walshb

Nodin wrote: »

Silly talk, tbh.

Silly reply, tbh!

holyhead

Given that it appears the Boston research/tape/papers have played a part in Ivor Bell's arrest could it be argued that Brendan Hughes and Dolours Price have touted ie informed which was the very charge the IRA labelled against Ms McConville. Given there involvement in her demise it would be kind of ironic.

Godge

holyhead wrote: »

Given that it appears the Boston research/tape/papers have played a part in Ivor Bell's arrest could it be argued that Brendan Hughes and Dolours Price have touted ie informed which was the very charge the IRA labelled against Ms McConville. Given there involvement in her demise it would be kind of ironic.

http://thebrokenelbow.com/2014/03/25/an-even-shorter-response-to-gerry-adams/


http://thebrokenelbow.com/2014/03/22/a-short-response-to-mary-lou-mcdonald/


Another perspective on the issue.

Happyman42

Godge wrote:

Another perspective on the issue.

Perspective?

What should the ethical journalist do? Should he or she just tamely report the claim and leave it there – perhaps at most noting en passant that not everyone accepts his story – or energetically investigate it and if he or she finds that Obama is lying then say so? There is no doubt in my mind what the principled journalist should do.

Nor is there a doubt in mine...an ethical journalist would produce documentary proof of what he/she believes to be the truth.

Not; speculate and insinuate. That is not the job of an 'ethical journalist'.

holyhead

Godge wrote: »

Will you refer to the British Army as peacekeepers in Northern Ireland as that's what they referred to themselves when they arrived?

I can't say I agree with this. Yes there was an element of keeping Rep/Loy sides apart but it was basically to secure a Protestant run state against Rep violence. A state in which Catholics were 2nd class citizens. You only need to look at a modern map of N.I. There are two motorways in the North. One goes to Antrim town. The other to Portadown. Both ovewrwhelmingly Protestant towns.

Indeed the treatment of Catholics as second class citizens coupled with a desire for a united Ireland were the twin drivers for militant republicanism.

Busted Flat.

holyhead wrote: »

Godge wrote: »

Will you refer to the British Army as peacekeepers in Northern Ireland as that's what they referred to themselves when they arrived?

I can't say I agree with this. Yes there was an element of keeping Rep/Loy sides apart but it was basically to secure a Protestant run state against Rep violence. A state in which Catholics were 2nd class citizens. You only need to look at a modern map of N.I. There are two motorways in the North. One goes to Antrim town. The other to Portadown. Both ovewrwhelmingly Protestant towns.

Indeed the treatment of Catholics as second class citizens coupled with a desire for a united Ireland were the twin drivers for militant republicanism.

When they went to Iraq it was about hearts and minds, and their experience in peace keeping in the six counties. How many were charged over their murderous exploits in Iraq.

feargale

I hope you all watched John Bowman's interview of Seamus Mallon tonight ( RTE1.)

Happyman42

feargale wrote: »

I hope you all watched John Bowman's interview of Seamus Mallon tonight ( RTE1.)

Awful, bitter stuff.
Who else where going to bring the peace if it wasn't the DUP and SF.
The SDLP, no harm to them, frittered away at condemnation and high moral values but they where never going to bring the violence to an end.
Bowman sat nodding sympathetically while Mallon came across a bit pathetically.

Busted Flat.

Happyman42 wrote: »

Awful, bitter stuff.
Who else where going to bring the peace if it wasn't the DUP and SF.
The SDLP, no harm to them, frittered away at condemnation and high moral values but they where never going to bring the violence to an end.
Bowman sat nodding sympathetically while Mallon came across a bit pathetically.

The people of the gin and tonic golf club, never understood what it was like to live in a front line getto. They dreamed about what great leaders they could be, but all it was dreams. Remember Gerry Fitt opening fire on his constituents.
That was the end of the gin and tonic club, even though it took years for RTE and other clowns to realise they had nothing to offer.

Happyman42

Busted Flat. wrote: »

The people of the gin and tonic golf club, never understood what it was like to live in a front line getto. They dreamed about what great leaders they could be, but all it was dreams. Remember Gerry Fitt opening fire on his constituents.
That was the end of the gin and tonic club, even though it took years for RTE and other clowns to realise they had nothing to offer.

I used to admire Mallon, until tonight, at least Paisley has a sense of humour about history.

marienbad

Happyman42 wrote: »

I used to admire Mallon, until tonight, at least Paisley has a sense of humour about history.

Why did you admire him ?

Happyman42

marienbad wrote: »

Why did you admire him ?

What I perceived as his pacifist motives, but the programme revealed his feet of clay, a huge ego.

Busted Flat.

marienbad wrote: »

Why did you admire him ?

Mallon admired himself, he was a puppet for an organisation that was given support to destroy the republican vote.

marienbad

Happyman42 wrote: »

What I perceived as his pacifist motives, but the programme revealed his feet of clay, a huge ego.

Are you going to judge an active political life of over 50 years on a television programme at the end of it ?

Happyman42

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Mallon admired himself, he was a puppet for an organisation that was given support to destroy the republican vote.

While I don't share your view of a conspiracy to destroy the Republican vote, I do think the SDLP got in the way, they fudged the real issue. They where always going to be eclipsed in a settlement.

Happyman42

marienbad wrote: »

Are you going to judge an active political life of over 50 years on a television programme at the end of it ?

I admired Mallon as an individual, as I did Hume. I just think the SDLP stalled a settlement and where not very effective.
The programme showed me a Mallon, bitter and not very self aware.

Busted Flat.

marienbad wrote: »

Are you going to judge an active political life of over 50 years on a television programme at the end of it ?

Yes I will, we have all these so called gods of Irish politics in the thirty two counties, strip them bare over what has happened over the years. Those that can come through the stripping with integrity should be held high, but in my opinion there will be few or none at all.

marienbad

Happyman42 wrote: »

I admired Mallon as an individual, as I did Hume. I just think the SDLP stalled a settlement and where not very effective.
The programme showed me a Mallon, bitter and not very self aware.

Others would disagree with you and vehemently so . The cliché has it that all political life ends in failure and if so why judge a life on an interview with disillusioned man at the end of it.

And if that was all it took to take away your good opinion of him what does that say about you ?

Happyman42

marienbad wrote: »

Others would disagree with you and vehemently so . The cliché has it that all political life ends in failure and if so why judge a life on an interview with disillusioned man at the end of it.

And if that was all it took to take away your good opinion of him what does that say about you ?

I wasn't judging a life...I was judging a man. Which is what a programme like that was asking us to do. Why make it otherwise?

marienbad

Happyman42 wrote: »

I wasn't judging a life...I was judging a man. Which is what a programme like that was asking us to do. Why make it otherwise?

Semantics - a life a man or woman .

Happyman42

marienbad wrote: »

Semantics - a life a man or woman .

Okay, Seamus was a hero because he lived long enough, but he is an incredibly bitter and un-self aware man.

That better? :rolleyes:

J Cheever Loophole

I'll stress at the outset that I didn't see the programme.

Happyman42 wrote: »

I used to admire Mallon, until tonight, at least Paisley has a sense of humour about history.

And given Paisley's role during the troubles, such a humour now borders on ghoulish. I'd be the first to say that Seamus Mallon wouldn't be the most jocular, but your comparison does you no favours at all.

Happyman42 wrote: »

Awful, bitter stuff.
Who else where going to bring the peace if it wasn't the DUP and SF.
The SDLP, no harm to them, frittered away at condemnation and high moral values but they where never going to bring the violence to an end.
Bowman sat nodding sympathetically while Mallon came across a bit pathetically.

You're right - ultimately it had to be SF and the leading Unionist party who delivered peace, but you cannot underplay the significant role played by the SDLP via the Hume / Adams talks in the early nineties that paved the way for a lot of what followed. The SDLP leadershp did so at not only huge personal risk but also huge political risk, as a successful outcome to the process could spell political suicide for Hume and his party - that to a certain extent is what transpired. To my mind that makes the contribution of the SDLP leadership back then particularly worthy of praise / credit.

Like I said, I didn't see the show last night, so I don't know how Seamus came across. Irrespective of that, the role of people like Seamus and John Hume in delivering peace should not be lost.

Khomeini

Too many act is if Jean McConville was killed for fun or something.

This is what touting does.