Are you a nationalist?

bnt

I'm from Scotland, which has been in the news a lot, since there's an upcoming referendum on independence. Personally, nationalism really isn't a sufficiently-strong argument for independence: there has to be a strong economic case, and I think Alex Salmond and friends from the Scottish National Party (SNP) have dropped the ball on that one. Particularly the question of currency union: they don't seem to be learning the lessons from the Euro situation.

So you can tell that the economics are more interesting, to me, than the idea of nationalism or independence for its own sake. Managing the money properly is what makes or breaks a country, not nationalism.

orangesoda

Quazzie wrote: »

That video suggests that the "800 years" is tripe. I refuse to believe that the Wolfe Tones would lie to us,

in my part of the world it has only been less than 500 years since the gaelic clan system was broken down

orangesoda

UtopianWarlord wrote: »

Why short-term, several states in that video existed for centuries

Anyway, I'd be somewhat I suppose. I don't really care about the north, but I like Ireland and will defend attacks on our Irishness or country.

why? i don't mind monaghan and cavan people

Foxhound38

star_man wrote: »

you sound comfortably middle class

Sounds can be decieving. What has class or lack of it got to do with this?

markgisme

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Sounds can be decieving. What has class or lack of it got to do with this?

A lot. Most middle class young people attend or will attend wealthy (Private) Second and Third level learning institutions and become subject to a lot of "West Brit" thinking and therefore learn and become "West Brits" themselves.

I know West Brit is a very rash term but it's exactly what most middle class people in and around Dublin are. They don't care about the greater Ireland once it doesn't affect them which is the same opinion a lot of people have these days.

I grew up experiencing this so I have some first hand experience of teachers directly influencing their students towards anti Republican and Nationalist sentiments.

"It doesn't matter to me so why should I care".

hatrickpatrick

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Is nationalism something you identify with?

I must admit, I've never really gotten it myself. I was born in Ireland by a stroke of chance - same as everyone else. It's a nice place to live, but at the end of the day the idea of people perching on the rocks vaguely close to where they are born and exclaiming to the rest of the world of other people perched on their own rocks "this is my rock and my rock only" strikes me as a strange way to concieve of the international order.

That's without even getting into all the wars and violence borne out of nationalistic sentiment.

Perhaps other people feel differently?

In my view it's about democratic control. The larger the population represented by a single leader, the less each individual's voice matters. Think of it like the teacher:pupil ratio in schools. I oppose things like EU political integration because constituencies for EU elections are so much vaster than constituencies for national elections - I'm actually in favour of going in the opposite direction, removing as much power as possible from central government and giving it to local councils instead.

The closer each individual is to those who make the law, the harder it is for vested interests to hijack it.

Foxhound38

markgisme wrote: »

A lot. Most middle class young people attend or will attend wealthy (Private) Second and Third level learning institutions and become subject to a lot of "West Brit" thinking and therefore learn and become "West Brits" themselves.

I know West Brit is a very rash term but it's exactly what most middle class people in and around Dublin are. They don't care about the greater Ireland once it doesn't affect them which is the same opinion a lot of people have these days.

I grew up experiencing this so I have some first hand experience of teachers directly influencing their students towards anti Republican and Nationalist sentiments.

"It doesn't matter to me so why should I care".

That's an aweful lot of assumptions to be making based on my views towards the politics of nationalism there matey!

And it is always only a matter of time before someone was called a "West Brit" in a thread like this :rolleyes:

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote:

It means living your life in a community you are happy to live in.

I'm very happy to be living in the community I do. That doesn't make me a nationalist... it just means I live in a nice community.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote:

belief in that community is the definition of nationalism

What do you mean "belief in" here? I believe it exists? Still don't think that makes me a nationalist.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote:

Whenever I hear someone say things like you just have I think of John Lennon, all the love in his heart for everyone and everything, a true citizen of the world, he cared for all that there is, it's just a pity all that love he had couldn't extend to spending some time with his son.

magma69

It's an outdated political ideal in most parts of the world. There was a time where nationalism served a purpose when imperialism and colonialism was the order of the day. I couldn't give a monkeys what flag is flown in my town. I know who I am.

on the river

magma69 wrote: »

It's an outdated political ideal in most parts of the world. There was a time where nationalism served a purpose when imperialism and colonialism was the order of the day. I couldn't give a monkeys what flag is flown in my town. I know who I am.

It's an outdated political ideal

I completly disagree. Nationalsim is alive and well in this country .

what flag is flown in my town

Well you should. Are past influences the present. We are shaped by

are ansestors struggles .

I know who I am

Well what are you so. A Monkey

magma69

on the river wrote: »

I completly disagree. Nationalsim is alive and well in this country .



Well you should. Are past influences the present. We are shaped by

are ansestors struggles .




Well what are you so. A Monkey

A monkey with a far better grasp of the English language than yourself it would seem.

Just because political ideals still have support doesn't mean they're not outdated.

Why should I care what flag is flying? How does that affect my life or society?

I care about actual issues, like poverty, crime, unemployment. Things that actually affect people's lives in a real way and not some romantic notion of freedom.

anncoates

markgisme wrote: »

A lot. Most middle class young people attend or will attend wealthy (Private) Second and Third level learning institutions and become subject to a lot of "West Brit" thinking and therefore learn and become "West Brits" themselves.

I know West Brit is a very rash term but it's exactly what most middle class people in and around Dublin are. They don't care about the greater Ireland once it doesn't affect them which is the same opinion a lot of people have these days.

I grew up experiencing this so I have some first hand experience of teachers directly influencing their students towards anti Republican and Nationalist sentiments.

"It doesn't matter to me so why should I care".

You couldn't be more wrong.

Nationalism is deleterious to class analysis as in your words, it's about a greater Ireland and not about the antagonistic social forces within that Ireland.

Fox_In_Socks

No, not that nationalistic. This is just another place on earth to be born. Better than many others in terms of food, health, clothing, work, freedom etc.

Foxhound38

magma69 wrote: »

A monkey with a far better grasp of the English language than yourself it would seem.

Just because political ideals still have support doesn't mean they're not outdated.

Why should I care what flag is flying? How does that affect my life or society?

I care about actual issues, like poverty, crime, unemployment. Things that actually affect people's lives in a real way and not some romantic notion of freedom.

Spot on

To paraphrase Connolly: "Ireland without her people means nothing to me"

Lucena

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Spot on

To paraphrase Connolly: "Ireland without her people means nothing to me"

Sure he wasn't talking about Vienna? :P

on the river

magma69 wrote: »

A monkey with a far better grasp of the English language than yourself it would seem.

Just because political ideals still have support doesn't mean they're not outdated.

Why should I care what flag is flying? How does that affect my life or society?

I care about actual issues, like poverty, crime, unemployment. Things that actually affect people's lives in a real way and not some romantic notion of freedom.

Well you should care about your nation because it affects your life in everyway.

Your government , police , health service all contribute to your life in some form.



life is not clear cut as you make it out to be.

Nationalism is now a big talking point with the Russian and Ukraine crises.

Be respectful to your nation and be happy for your freedom.

Iwasfrozen

on the river wrote: »

Well you should care about your nation because it affects your life in everyway.

Your government , police , health service all contribute to your life in some form.



life is not clear cut as you make it out to be.

Nationalism is now a big talking point with the Russian and Ukraine crises.

Be respectful to your nation and be happy for your freedom.

One is not dependent on the other and Ukraine is proof if ever it was needed that nationalism is a dangerous and discriminatory ideology.

TheDoc

Probably not, I find too much stuff goes on in the name of "being Irish" that I find utterly embarrasing.

pojfexcsc

Ofcourse.

jimgoose

I happen to like having my own rock. That's not to say others aren't quite welcome to call over and even sit on my rock, but it is most certainly my rock. That's not to say either that other people's rocks aren't quite nice - I have the occasional sit on some of them myself - and they are quite welcome to them.

orangesoda

jimgoose wrote: »

I happen to like having my own rock. That's not to say others aren't quite welcome to call over and even sit on my rock, but it is most certainly my rock. That's not to say either that other people's rocks aren't quite nice - I have the occasional sit on some of them myself - and they are quite welcome to them.

Corkmen should not claim ones rock for himself, Cork do not own rock

jimgoose

orangesoda wrote: »

Corkmen should not claim ones rock for himself, Cork do not own rock

Sir, you have offended my honour and d'honour of Caaark, like. I challenge you to a tripe-and-drisheen atin' contest at dawn!

Spunge

markgisme wrote: »

A lot. Most middle class young people attend or will attend wealthy (Private) Second and Third level learning institutions and become subject to a lot of "West Brit" thinking and therefore learn and become "West Brits" themselves.

I know West Brit is a very rash term but it's exactly what most middle class people in and around Dublin are. They don't care about the greater Ireland once it doesn't affect them which is the same opinion a lot of people have these days.

I grew up experiencing this so I have some first hand experience of teachers directly influencing their students towards anti Republican and Nationalist sentiments.

"It doesn't matter to me so why should I care".

This is outrageous. You're claiming people being more enlightened than their peers is a fault and not a desireable trait. And the best education institutions in Ireland cost the same for everyone. I hope you're joking, could be coz im stoned.

pojfexcsc

Spunge wrote: »

This is outrageous. You're claiming people being more enlightened than their peers is a fault and not a desireable trait. And the best education institutions in Ireland cost the same for everyone. I hope you're joking, could be coz im stoned.

Are you saying getting taught anti-nationalism in school make's you more enlightened??

Iwasfrozen

pojfexcsc wrote: »

Are you saying getting taught anti-nationalism in school make's you more enlightened??

Not pushing nationalism on children makes them more enlightened.

Spunge

pojfexcsc wrote: »

Are you saying getting taught anti-nationalism in school make's you more enlightened??

Im saying its ridiculous to claim that people learn to think through education and develop educated beliefs is a bad thing, that post implies that basically. No strawman.

hjkl

I expected the poll to be a bit more even than 58/42 against nationalism.
No doubt the 'not nationalist' side will grow as the years go on and the world becomes more integrated.
There is already a generation of teenagers and young adults year who have grown up knowing only peace and cooperation between people in Ireland, and between Ireland and Britain. Add that to the rise of internationalism and the atmosphere for nationalism really isn't there anymore.

I voted Yes I am nationalist btw.

pojfexcsc

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Not pushing nationalism on children makes them more enlightened.

Your man said it was anti-nationalism being pushed on kids not neutral teaching so the same logic applies, they are not "more enlightened" whatever end of the scale they are taught.

Spunge wrote: »

Im saying its ridiculous to claim that people learn to think through education and develop educated beliefs is a bad thing, that post implies that basically. No strawman.

He never said that though did he? he's observed children getting educated with a west brit bias not attacking the fact they are apparently more educated than state educated students.

Whatever opinion they go on to have I couldnt care less.

I do remember when I was doing history for my leaving the book we used looked at the conflict in the north as fact and listed actions and atrocities on all sides without any leaning, I read the book my pals were using in their class and the partitionist slant on the book was unbelievable, using words like "so-called struggle" and "so-called demands".

I imagine if someone learnt the majority of their Irish history through that paticular book and never looked up things for themselves I wouldnt be surprised if they turned out anti-nationalist.

whats newxt

Roughly 50/50 it's a bit sad that in this day and age we still have people that call themselves nationalist

pojfexcsc

whats newxt wrote: »

Roughly 50/50 it's a bit sad that in this day and age we still have people that call themselves nationalist

Are you on the wind up? not as if its white nationalism or anything thick like that.

whats newxt

would you go out and get shot for your country if we were at war?

Iwasfrozen

whats newxt wrote: »

would you go out and get shot for your country if we were at war?

For my country? No screw Ireland.

For my family, my friends and my home? You bet I would.

pojfexcsc

whats newxt wrote: »

would you go out and get shot for your country if we were at war?

Would you ride a donkey to save your ma?

What is with the escalation

What is your perverse problem with Irish nationalism, your nonsense up there would probably have looked a little bit better if the question was "are you a republican"

whats newxt

pojfexcsc wrote: »

Would you ride a donkey to save your ma?

What is with the escalation

What is your perverse problem with Irish nationalism, your nonsense up there would probably have looked a little bit better if the question was "are you a republican"

I only asked a question what's wrong with that? you never answered any of them either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FMNFvKEy4c

Femme_Fatale

I'm not at all talking about mad rabid nationalism, but most people feel an affinity with kin and with the place they grew up in, so there's nothing wrong with feeling a bit of that towards the country you're from in certain contexts.

RobbingBandit

This country no longer has a national identity I would see myself happy to embrace, the idealism of a free united independent Ireland is so far out of reach anyone still clinging to it is delusional.

atilladehun

Great thread. It can really lead onto lots of discussions. I'm a history teacher and I'm goingto steal it for our class site.

Back on topic i voted no but now I want to say yes.
I'm a nationalist in the sense that I want a fully functional country. I want good schools, hospitals, transport and legal systems etc with fair taxation and top quality representation. I want people to be able come to Ireland and enjoy it. I want fulfilling lives for everyone here in work, culture and family.

I have no thoughts on ni, and no hate for anyone inside or outside of the country.

hjkl

atilladehun wrote: »

Great thread. It can really lead onto lots of discussions. I'm a history teacher and I'm goingto steal it for our class site.

Back on topic i voted no but now I want to say yes.
I'm a nationalist in the sense that I want a fully functional country. I want good schools, hospitals, transport and legal systems etc with fair taxation and top quality representation. I want people to be able come to Ireland and enjoy it. I want fulfilling lives for everyone here in work, culture and family.

I have no thoughts on ni, and no hate for anyone inside or outside of the country.

How is that nationalism?

Mountainlad

I am very proud of where I'm from both in a sense of County and Country. I think it's important we can identify with where we are from through out our lives.

In terms of being a nationalist, it depends on what meaning you derive for the term. If it's a matter of loving the Country than chalk me down as a Nationalist. I don't believe in exclusion though, although that said I'd like us to keep our identity.

The preservation of language, music and heritage are very important to me and I feel like society in general is making a constant effort to leave them all behind. Think it's important to remember what our ancestors dreamt of and what we are lucky to have today, to celebrate it appropriately and be thankful for it.


One more point is that I think being Irish should be open to anyone born on the Island, no matter their religion or County of birth (in fact it is open to everyone given those in the North are entitled to a passport) and that nobody should be allowed take it away from someone born on the Island. The only true way to have a united Ireland is one united in spirit and identity, no matter what differences there maybe with political and economic governance.

Spunge

pojfexcsc wrote: »

Your man said it was anti-nationalism being pushed on kids not neutral teaching so the same logic applies, they are not "more enlightened" whatever end of the scale they are taught.



He never said that though did he? he's observed children getting educated with a west brit bias not attacking the fact they are apparently more educated than state educated students.

Whatever opinion they go on to have I couldnt care less.

I do remember when I was doing history for my leaving the book we used looked at the conflict in the north as fact and listed actions and atrocities on all sides without any leaning, I read the book my pals were using in their class and the partitionist slant on the book was unbelievable, using words like "so-called struggle" and "so-called demands".

I imagine if someone learnt the majority of their Irish history through that paticular book and never looked up things for themselves I wouldnt be surprised if they turned out anti-nationalist.

I was referring to anti-nationalism as a concept, not anti-irish. There was some confusion i hope........

Green Giant

I love my country and I'm proud to be Irish. On an international Internet forum I make no secret of my nationality and, when I travel abroad, I always take an Ireland jersey and my county colours - although this is usually more effective in connecting with other Irish people at said location than anything else.

However, I'm not one for automatically rejecting anything non-Irish. For example, I'd listen to international pop and indie music more than rebel music or trad. I'd watch Sky and BBC far more often than RTE, TV3 or TG4. I take more of an interest in the English Premier League and European soccer than club or county GAA.

In a nutshell, proud to be Irish but not a total nationalist by any stretch.

magma69

on the river wrote: »

Well you should care about your nation because it affects your life in everyway.

Your government , police , health service all contribute to your life in some form.



life is not clear cut as you make it out to be.

Nationalism is now a big talking point with the Russian and Ukraine crises.

Be respectful to your nation and be happy for your freedom.

What do the goverment, police and health service have to do with nationalism?

And like others have said, if anything the Russian/Ukraine crisis shows nationalism in a terrible light.

swimming in a sea

Nationalism! without wanting to sound all new world order, its just something dreamed up by rich people for the little people to make them feel like they have a purpose.

Keep poor people nationalistic as you'll never know when you might need some cannon fodder, rich people get nationalistic about living in Monaco, Bermuda etc.

moxin

swimming in a sea wrote: »

Nationalism! without wanting to sound all new world order, its just something dreamed up by rich people for the little people to make them feel like they have a purpose.

Keep poor people nationalistic as you'll never know when you might need some cannon fodder, rich people get nationalistic about living in Monaco, Bermuda etc.

Thats rich people using nationalism to further their own ends. The gullible take in it in like lemmings, the non-gullible do not. Nothing wrong to be nationalistic(to run your own affairs), its when various vested interests use it for extremes is where the problems arise.

By the way, a rich corporations dreamland would be to have no nations at all. It lowers costs in this scenario hence more profit.

dd972

Normally no but when mistaken for a Brit.........

gallag

dd972 wrote: »

Normally no but when mistaken for a Brit.........

You feel nationalistic pride when mistaken for a Brit? Understandable, must be nice for you to feel you are part of a country that changed and influenced the world ;-)

magma69

gallag wrote: »

You feel nationalistic pride when mistaken for a Brit? Understandable, must be nice for you to feel you are part of a country that changed and influenced the world ;-)

In a hypothetical situation. How would you feel if Northern Ireland became part of the Republic and the living standards of all in the North improved significantly?

Would you be in favour of this hypthetical Ireland or not?

A yes or no answer would suffice.

Richard

BrendanHughes1 wrote: »

Trying telling that to Brian Boru.

Try telling that to his 35th generation great-granddaughter.

https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110731072212AAl8icK

Jimminism

gallag wrote: »

You feel nationalistic pride when mistaken for a Brit? Understandable, must be nice for you to feel you are part of a country that changed and influenced the world ;-)

Every country has changed and infleunced the world somehow. Britain has undoubtedly changed it for the worse.

Donkey Oaty

magma69 wrote: »

In a hypothetical situation. How would you feel if Northern Ireland became part of the Republic and the living standards of all in the North improved significantly?

Would you be in favour of this hypthetical Ireland or not?

A yes or no answer would suffice.

If he's a Unionist, I imagine his answer will be the same as anyone living here in (Rep of) Ireland, whose living standards hypothetically improved as a result of being part of the UK. Or the USA, or Russia for that matter.

Which is this: No.

Or is it?

poundapunnet

Not particularly. I like Ireland, I think it's a beautiful country, I love the language (though I'm barely conversational, let alone fluent) and I appreciate that it has produced some wonderful musical, artistic and literary traditions, but it's not like I take any personal pride in or credit for that; and I really do think the attitude to life and sense of humour that a lot of Irish people have is fantastic-but then again I would, having grown up here.

On the other hand, I think the notion of a United Ireland is hopelessy naive and a pure exercise in ideology rather than any actual possibility at this point, and I really don't care if people from Ireland can throw/kick a ball or whatever better than people from other countries.

Really I think nationalism as a concept isn't as tenable in this century as it once was. International politics, the dawn of the digital age and a couple other things mean that people will probably feel a sense of unity over aspects of their identity like religion, race, and political outlook that are no longer defined by your nationality. And those aspects of their identity will be used to get them to kill each other. Plus ca change basically.