Claim: 'Kyiv is the mother of all Russian Cities'

oscarBravo

jimeryan22 wrote: »

What are we thinking about the report of Ukrainian jet in the vicinity...?

I'm not sure what the significance is.

Corkfeen

jimeryan22 wrote: »

You are an idiot

We have a strong indication that Russian Separatists are responsible. You have claimed across the site that Russia are completely innocent. Them arming separatists is completely in line with what they have been doing in the region. You seem to believe public have been deceived by western propaganda so it seems like a fair conclusion on where you are going with subject.

jimeryan22

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm not sure what the significance is.

You don't think it significant if a jet/jets were flying around within range of the plane..?

oscarBravo

jimeryan22 wrote: »

You don't think it significant if a jet/jets were flying around within range of the plane..?

What do you think the significance is (assuming it's true, which is a whole 'nother question)?

jimeryan22

oscarBravo wrote: »

What do you think the significance is (assuming it's true, which is a whole 'nother question)?

Why avoid my question and answer it with a question..?

oscarBravo

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Why avoid my question and answer it with a question..?

I don't know if it's significant, or even whether it's true.

What do you think the significance is?

jimeryan22

Corkfeen wrote: »

We have a strong indication that Russian Separatists are responsible. You have claimed across the site that Russia are completely innocent. Them arming separatists is completely in line with what they have been doing in the region. You seem to believe public have been deceived by western propaganda so it seems like a fair conclusion on where you are going with subject.

No no. We have hearsay, like said before.. Not facts..
Firstly, show me these facts.. Please do

Then please also show me where anywhere in any thread I have said Russia is innocent at all...

And as for your western media "line"
What like wmd's..? Ties to al queda..? Those lines..? Is it

Dades

jimeryan22 wrote: »

You are an idiot

I understand there's a high level of disagreement going on here but the next blatant insult will result in a card, jimeryan22. Note that in most forums you'd have got one without preamble. You have been warned.

jimeryan22

oscarBravo wrote: »

I don't know if it's significant, or even whether it's true.

What do you think the significance is?

Well I don't know... There's a few possibilities isn't there... Like what correspondence they had if any...? There wouldn't nesasarily be any records of any coms between planes..

oscarBravo

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Well I don't know... There's a few possibilities isn't there... Like what correspondence they had if any...? There wouldn't nesasarily be any records of any coms between planes..

Planes don't talk to each other. Planes talk to ATC, and those conversations are recorded.

Icepick

You are feeding a troll spreading Russian propaganda.

robindch

jimeryan22 wrote: »

No no. We have hearsay, like said before.. Not facts.. Firstly, show me these facts.. Please do

You ignored facts yesterday when you accepted that Nuland's phonecall did not say what you said it said, but despite that, you persisted in claiming that the US and EU had interfered in the sovereign affairs another state (while -- separate issue -- ignoring the far greater offence that Russia is committing in, for example, supplying men and weapons to fight in East Ukraine, has worked to block legitimate elections from taking place, has annexed Crimea etc, etc, etc).

Are you going to demand facts here too, but subsequently choose to ignore them? If you are, then that constitutes trolling which is a cardable/bannable offence.

Turtwig

Icepick wrote: »

You are feeding a troll spreading Russian propaganda.

If you wish to accuse someone of being a troll, do it via reporting their posts or PM the mod team. Posting it in thread is not appropriate.

Thanks,

recedite

oscarBravo wrote: »

What I'm saying is that, despite several people claiming that MH17 flew an unusual route on the 17th, and citing flightaware as a source, flightaware data doesn't appear to support this claim.

You have to admit that it was diverted to fly over the conflict zone at Donetsk, and that its original flight plan was to overfly much further south and at higher altitude.
If the claim that there was also a Ukrainian military jet in the vicinity turned out to be true, I think the suspicion would not neccessarily be that the fighter shot down the passenger plane. It would be that military planes were using foreign commercial aircraft as cover when flying into the conflict zone.

jimeryan22

oscarBravo wrote: »

Planes don't talk to each other. Planes talk to ATC, and those conversations are recorded.

Only ATC..? Planes don't communicate with each other at all...??

jimeryan22

robindch wrote: »

You ignored facts yesterday when you accepted that Nuland's phonecall did not say what you said it said, but despite that, you persisted in claiming that the US and EU had interfered in the sovereign affairs another state (while -- separate issue -- ignoring the far greater offence that Russia is committing in, for example, supplying men and weapons to fight in East Ukraine, has worked to block legitimate elections from taking place, has annexed Crimea etc, etc, etc).

Are you going to demand facts here too, but subsequently choose to ignore them? If you are, then that constitutes trolling which is a cardable/bannable offence.

I did not concede yesterday about Nulands call... I agreed that it wasn't worded as you wanted..
But you keep throwing out troll, conspiracy theorist nonscence... Really it's you who should be carded or banned.. As you and a couple of others just attack attack attack when something is said you don't like or disagree with... Which is not my problem
Also. I'm yet to see you provide any evidence of Russia giving seperatists AA equip and the like that your so sure they have... Well let's see it..?

oscarBravo

recedite wrote: »

You have to admit that it was diverted to fly over the conflict zone at Donetsk, and that its original flight plan was to overfly much further south and at higher altitude.

I haven't seen its original flight plan. If you have a link to it, that would be good. What I'm arguing with is the assertion that flightaware shows a much more southerly track for the previous day, which it doesn't.

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Only ATC..? Planes don't communicate with each other at all...??

Pilots listen to each others' conversations with ATC, but radio procedure dictates that all conversations are air-to-ground.

jimeryan22

oscarBravo wrote: »

I haven't seen its original flight plan. If you have a link to it, that would be good. What I'm arguing with is the assertion that flightaware shows a much more southerly track for the previous day, which it doesn't.

Pilots listen to each others' conversations with ATC, but radio procedure dictates that all conversations are air-to-ground.

And so they can only hear each other and not talk to each other..?
So that's basically what I was asking you in the first place.. Thank you finally

robindch

As an aside, here's the latest in from Graham Phillips. For anybody who's not heard of him - he's a young guy from the UK who carved a little niche for himself on Russian media as one of the few westerners actively reporting from Eastern Ukraine during the ongoing conflict. Unfortunately, while occasionally interesting, his camera-verité reporting style was pointedly biased and entirely supportive of the Russian government. And while he shouldn't have been, he was turfed out of the country a month or two ago by the authorities in Kiev. He's back again now and continuing much as before. Here he is in Slavyansk, but this time, without the support of Russian-backed gunmen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ0ipZ1RW84

He's asking some randomers whether all's ok (yes), whether either of them voted in the referendum (no, both are for Ukraine), but didn't everybody vote in the referendum (no, bloody strange referendum where they stuffed the boxes with photocopies, innit?), what about the Ukrainian army shooting at the city and the people (no, 90% of the region had no conflict), were the Ukrainian army shooting people (no, they were defending their territory, they were defending their country and their people), what about them shooting children (no, they didn't do that; glory to Ukraine!), uh, ok, goodbye (is that the end? not a successful interview, eh?).

A vox pop is a cheap form of journalism and he certainly gets himself pwn'd here, but it is quite indicative of the level of journalism that the Russians employ -- cheap, pushy and shoddy.

FWIW, his Russian is dreadful and his accent grates as badly as Sean Connery's in the Hunt for Red October.

recedite

oscarBravo wrote: »

I haven't seen its original flight plan. If you have a link to it, that would be good. What I'm arguing with is the assertion that flightaware shows a much more southerly track for the previous day, which it doesn't.

I think much of the confusion stems from the blue dashed line shown on this flightaware graphic.
It appears to represent the original flight plan and/or typical previous flights, but they do not actually label what it is. As you pointed out, most previous flights did overfly Donetsk. So just from looking at the ill fated flight path as shown, the data could equally be interpreted to mean that the pilot had strayed further south than intended, and was correcting by going north.
Without knowing what the original plan was, and without the transcripts of conversation with air traffic control, we can't say.

Icepick

Turtwig wrote: »

If you wish to accuse someone of being a troll, do it via reporting their posts or PM the mod team. Posting it in thread is not appropriate.

Thanks,

Just general advice.

oscarBravo

recedite wrote: »

I think much of the confusion stems from the blue dashed line shown on this flightaware graphic.

Much of the confusion stems from the fact that whenever I follow that link (which stevejazzx has previously posted) I get this:



Can you post the actual image that's being referenced?

It appears to represent the original flight plan and/or typical previous flights, but they do not actually label what it is. As you pointed out, most previous flights did overfly Donetsk. So just from looking at the ill fated flight path as shown, the data could equally be interpreted to mean that the pilot had strayed further south than intended, and was correcting by going north.
Without knowing what the original plan was, and without the transcripts of conversation with air traffic control, we can't say.

Yup. That's pretty much been my point all along.

Brian Shanahan

oscarBravo wrote: »

Hmmmm, what?

He's just parroting the black propoganda of the state controlled media of the Russian dictatorship, trying to make out that either a) the flight was a deliberate target, or b) that the crash was faked as a US black flag operation.

recedite

oscarBravo wrote: »

Can you post the actual image that's being referenced?

Here....

Brian Shanahan

robindch wrote: »

I completely agree. The vast majority of the current data, incompletely reliable and all as it is, points largely in one direction and looking forward, I don't expect that this is going to change as more evidence arrives in from the (damaged) crash site and equipment remains, from ATC and other external sources, from the (potentially interfered-with) black boxes, the bodies of the dead and so on.

We have one huge piece of evidence before we even get any of the plane or the bodies of the victims, the fact that there is massive tampering of the evidence going on at the crash site?

Why would the "eastern Ukrainian freedom fighters" (far more likely to be Russian army regulars and state sponsored neo-Nazi skinhead goons than actual residents of eastern Ukraine) be destroying the evidence if they had not some criminal activities (namely the murder of 290 civilians) to hide?

Corkfeen

Many of the Russian public appear to view Russia as responsible as they gathered outside of the Dutch embassy.

Another message reads: "We are afraid, we are ashamed, we are in mourning."
While the official Russian position is that Russia played no role and has no responsibility for the crash, what's striking in many of the notes is the use of the phrase "forgive us."
The messages give a sense that the people who have left them do feel that Russia has an element of responsibility in what is playing out in eastern Ukraine.
One note reads, in English, "Excuse us, please, if you can. Sorry! Russia, Moscow."
Paying his condolences at the embassy, Muscovite Yuri Yemshanov told CNN it was "difficult to recognize that our country could be involved in this accident."
Everyday items tell powerful story
"I think there's lot of proof that we're in closer relations and connections with the separatists in Ukraine. I suppose it's clearly understood that we support them by providing weapons, and so I think it doesn't matter who launched that rocket. Just because we're supporting terrorists, we're involved."
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/21/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-moscow-embassy/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

recedite

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

the fact that there is massive tampering of the evidence going on at the crash site?

That is a little unfair.
First of all the western journalists complained because they themselves were allowed onto the site, and nothing was "secured".
Then local militia took the black box away, stored it securely (there is no evidence of any "tampering" with the data in it at the moment, despite the rantings of Poroshenko). As soon as the Malaysian crash investigators arrived, it was given to them.

When the bodies were left lying there, people complained. When they were removed and refrigerated, people complained. As soon as the Dutch contingent arrived, they were given charge of the bodies and the train carrying them departed. And all this in a war zone not served by the normal emergency services. What more do people expect?

jimeryan22

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

We have one huge piece of evidence before we even get any of the plane or the bodies of the victims, the fact that there is massive tampering of the evidence going on at the crash site?

Why would the "eastern Ukrainian freedom fighters" (far more likely to be Russian army regulars and state sponsored neo-Nazi skinhead goons than actual residents of eastern Ukraine) be destroying the evidence if they had not some criminal activities (namely the murder of 290 civilians) to hide?

And your saying others are spitting out state propaganda...? Don't make laugh talking out of the obvious....
Why would Russia risk ww3 on herself Doing something so stupid...?

Where is this evidence...? Show this evidence that you above everybody else in the world seem to have..?

oscarBravo

recedite wrote: »

Here....

Still broken. I can't seem to load images from commercial.flightaware.com for some reason.

Corkfeen

jimeryan22 wrote: »

And your saying others are spitting out state propaganda...? Don't make laugh talking out of the obvious....
Why would Russia risk ww3 on herself Doing something so stupid...?

Where is this evidence...? Show this evidence that you above everybody else in the world seem to have..?

Well the separatists are believed to have cut into the craft which is tampering with evidence.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-wreckage-cut-into-osce-spokesman-20140722-zvun3.html

Then there's the fact that they had the flight recorder in their possession for a while. Looting corpses by separatists was allowed. Russians domestically are even of the opinion that Russia is backing the separatists. The most likely suppliers of the launcher is Russia.

Then we've got this suspiciously large device being shipped back into Russia. Plus all those recordings and the fact they had plenty of activity in the zone. But oh no, false flag and poor Russia is innocent.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-mh17-crash-blogger-captures-footage-showing-buk-missile-launcher-that-shot-down-jet-now-back-in-russia-9618115.html

Just as an example, back in the eighties Russia almost started a world war over some bad radar data which would have started a nuclear war. Foolish decisions aren't new in foreign policy and arming separatists is a very risky thing which they have been engaging in for a fair bit.

jimeryan22

Corkfeen wrote: »

Well the separatists are believed to have cut into the craft which is tampering with evidence.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-wreckage-cut-into-osce-spokesman-20140722-zvun3.html

Then there's the fact that they had the flight recorder in their possession for a while. Looting corpses by separatists was allowed. Russians domestically are even of the opinion that Russia is backing the separatists. The most likely suppliers of the launcher is Russia.

Then we've got this suspiciously large device being shipped back into Russia. Plus all those recordings and the fact they had plenty of activity in the zone. But oh no, false flag and poor Russia is innocent.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-mh17-crash-blogger-captures-footage-showing-buk-missile-launcher-that-shot-down-jet-now-back-in-russia-9618115.html

Just as an example, back in the eighties Russia almost started a world war over some bad radar data which would have started a nuclear war. Foolish decisions aren't new in foreign policy and arming separatists is a very risky thing which they have been engaging in for a fair bit.

There's nobody around here to my knowledge saying poor old Russia...
In your first article the guy says "it appears" which is hearsay as far as I'm concerned until crash investigators have done the business. Not one of the observers who is obviously not a crash expert... Your second article is some bloggers.. So in no way a bible fact proof of anything either..
Either way.. There's no concrete facts of Russia being "at fault" for this tragady... I would hope not.. As then no doubt war would be round the corner.. Until there's real proof. I can't see how blowing a passenger plane out of the sky helps Russia in anyway shape or form...

Corkfeen

Nobody has claimed that Russia intentionally wanted to take down a passenger plane..

jimeryan22

Corkfeen wrote: »

Nobody has claimed that Russia intentionally wanted to take down a passenger plane..

No..? So guilty by backing separatists then...? That's the rhetoric here and in the media since the weekend...

Corkfeen

jimeryan22 wrote: »

No..? So guilty by backing separatists then...? That's the rhetoric here and in the media since the weekend...

Yes guilty by backing separatists with the range to hit a passenger plane. Something that they should not have had.

jimeryan22

Corkfeen wrote: »

Yes guilty by backing separatists with the range to hit a passenger plane. Something that they should not have had.

But that is not proven

Hotblack Desiato

oscarBravo wrote: »

Pilots listen to each others' conversations with ATC, but radio procedure dictates that all conversations are air-to-ground.

Civil airliners use VHF radios, they can't hear military UHF communications.

Brian Shanahan

Corkfeen wrote: »

Just as an example, back in the eighties Russia almost started a world war over some bad radar data which would have started a nuclear war. Foolish decisions aren't new in foreign policy and arming separatists is a very risky thing which they have been engaging in for a fair bit.

Oh yes, the wandering bear incident. It gets worse, in 1983 the Communist Party's politburo took the annual Able Archer training manoeuvres in Western Europe as a prelude to an attack (despite the fact that they happened the same time every year and were well flagged as training manouvres) and authorised a preemptory ICBM strike. According to some reports the only thing stopping us existing in the Fallout universe right now was that the code access terminal went on the fritz and by the time it was fixed NATO had realised that the Russian paranoia was spiking too high and called of the exercises.

oscarBravo

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Civil airliners use VHF radios, they can't hear military UHF communications.

Military aircraft in controlled airspace are (as I understand it) required to communicate with civilian ATC. I've witnessed comms between an Air Corps helicopter and the tower I was talking to.

jimeryan22

Latest American intelligence suggests "no direct link between Russia and downed flight". Sky news

recedite

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Oh yes, the wandering bear incident. It gets worse, in 1983 the Communist Party's politburo.....

The wandering bear incident was an American mistake, not a Soviet one.

Brown Bomber

Corkfeen wrote: »

Yes guilty by backing separatists with the range to hit a passenger plane. Something that they should not have had.

Can you explain why these so-called "separatists" weren't trying to separate from Ukraine before the coup?

Surely they are an anti-coup movement?

Brown Bomber

Corkfeen wrote: »

Many of the Russian public appear to view Russia as responsible as they gathered outside of the Dutch embassy.

Your link gives no indication of what Russian people are thinking beyond a tiny handful of ex pats. Not that it actually effects the reality of the event in the slightest, unless they are privy to some inside information that nobody else is.

So rather than tell us what "many of the Russian public" think your link tells us what a tiny minority of Russian emigrant, conspiracy theorists think.

Brown Bomber

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

(far more likely to be Russian army regulars and state sponsored neo-Nazi skinhead goons than actual residents of eastern Ukraine)

There is turning reality on it's head and then there is this - The neo-Nazis are the National Guard, assimiliated in the government who are the enemies of the anti-coup militias.

robindch

Brown Bomber wrote: »

[...] turning reality on it's head [...]

You said it yourself :rolleyes:

robindch

The Red Cross has privately assessed that the conflict in East Ukraine now constitutes a "war", meaning that the way is now open to war crimes prosecutions.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/22/us-ukraine-crisis-warcrimes-idUSKBN0FR0V920140722

Reuters wrote:

(Reuters) - The Red Cross has made a confidential legal assessment that Ukraine is officially in a war, Western diplomats and officials say, opening the door to possible war crimes prosecutions, including over the downing of Malaysia Airlines MH-17. "Clearly it's an international conflict and therefore this is most probably a war crime," one Western diplomat in Geneva told Reuters.

The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) is the guardian of the Geneva Conventions setting down the rules of war, and as such is considered a reference in the United Nations deciding when violence has evolved into an armed conflict. "Within the U.N. system, it's the ICRC that makes that determination. They are the gate keepers of international humanitarian law," said one U.N. source.

The ICRC has not made any public statement - seeking not to offend either Ukraine or Russia by calling it a civil war or a case of foreign aggression - but it has done so privately and informed the parties to the conflict, sources told Reuters. "The qualification has been shared bilaterally and confidentially," ICRC spokeswoman Anastasia Isyuk told Reuters on Friday. "We do not discuss it publicly."

The designation as a war - either international or civil - changes the game legally, because it turns both sides into combatants with equal liability for war crimes, which have no statute of limitations and cannot be absolved by an amnesty. Suspects may also be arrested abroad, since some countries apply "universal jurisdiction" to war crimes.

Without the designation, Ukrainian government forces would be responsible for protecting civilians and infrastructure under international human rights law, while separatists would only be liable under Ukraine's criminal laws. "It changes their accountability on the international stage," said Andrew Clapham, director of the Geneva Academy of International Humanitarian Law and Human Rights. "This makes individuals more likely to be prosecuted for war crimes."

Dutch prosecutors have opened an investigation into the crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH-17 on suspicion of murder, war crimes and intentionally downing an airliner, a spokesman said on Monday. Based on the Law on International Crimes, the Netherlands can prosecute any individual who committed a war crime against a Dutch citizen. The 298 people who were killed when the plane was downed over Ukraine included 193 Dutch citizens.

Russian President Vladimir Putin said in May that the country had collapsed into civil war, while Ukraine regards the conflict as a war involving Russian aggression.

recedite

The Red Cross has made a confidential legal assessment that Ukraine is officially in a war.....Russian President Vladimir Putin said in May that the country had collapsed into civil war.

Great, but I think that was pretty obvious.
Maybe now somebody will organise a peacekeeping/peace enforcing force. I doubt it will be Putin though, after the amount of international condemnation he got for sending in a few troops to keep the beligerents separated in Crimea.
Banky Moon of the UN will continue with his occasional "appeals for peace" in Ukraine and Gaza.

robindch

recedite wrote: »

after the amount of international condemnation he got for sending in a few troops to keep the beligerents separated in Crimea.

Well, in all fairness, there weren't any belligerents in Crimea until he invaded the place.

So it's not hard to understand why people might be a little reluctant to have more of Putin's little green tourists helping "keep the peace".

recedite

In all fairness, they prevented a civil war from erupting in that particular region, at least.

Out of curiosity, if a joint Nato/Russian force invaded East Ukraine, confined all the local militants to barracks, declared martial law, and held a referendum on its future, would you be happy with the outcome? Or would it be invalid because of the presence of green uniformed men and martial law?
Not that chalk and cheese are ever likely to mix, but in theory?

jimeryan22

Brittish intelligence now coming out saying recordings of seperatists talking about tampering with evidence...
Let's fecking hear it then brittish intelligence... Don't just talk about it..

robindch

recedite wrote:

Not that chalk and cheese are ever likely to mix, but in theory?

I'd be happy if Putin stopped supporting gunmen in East Ukraine and would agree to repatriate the Russian citizens who are leading the war there. I'm pretty sure that this is all that would be needed to restore peace at the drop of a hat - as it's happened in the cities which the gunmen have retreated from.

I'm also happy for any free and fair, internationally-observed, constitutional referendum to take place so that the people of Ukraine can decide their future for themselves.

recedite wrote: »

In all fairness, they prevented a civil war from erupting in that particular region, at least.

I don't want to be obtuse here, but until February, there were no unsolvable problems in Crimea, at least there weren't until Putin invaded, held a fake referendum, stole the place on the back of an hysterical media campaign of fear and hatred.

I really don't know what you're talking about when you refer to Puting having "prevented a civil war" since he was, in fact, the guy who attempted to start one.