Claim: 'Kyiv is the mother of all Russian Cities'

jimeryan22

There's your evidence

http://youtu.be/oQRvINebeok

recedite

robindch wrote: »

I'm also happy for any free and fair, internationally-observed, constitutional referendum to take place so that the people of Ukraine can decide their future for themselves.

And there's the rub. Its like saying to Scotland, we would let you have a referendum for self-determination if the British constitution allowed it (but unfortunately it doesn't unless modified) and if all the British people can vote.
England, Wales and N. Ireland obviously, and sure why not Gibraltar and the Falklands too, they'll need to vote because it affects them too. That should give us a nice majority.

recedite

robindch wrote: »

until February, there were no unsolvable problems in Crimea..

Nothing that couldn't be sorted out with a few air strikes and artillery bombardments, eh?

robindch

recedite wrote: »

Its like saying to Scotland, we would let you have a referendum for self-determination if the British constitution allowed it (but unfortunately it doesn't unless modified) and if all the British people can vote.

In Ukraine, there is a constitutional process by which regions can secede. This process can be followed. Or the parliament can submit and approve a new constitution and new rules and those can be followed. Are you saying that the rule of law should be ignored?

recedite wrote: »

robindch wrote: »

until February, there were no unsolvable problems in Crimea..

Nothing that couldn't be sorted out with a few air strikes and artillery bombardments, eh?

I have no idea what you're referring to.

Sulla Felix

robindch wrote: »

In Ukraine, there is a constitutional process by which regions can secede. This process can be followed. Or the parliament can submit and approve a new constitution and new rules and those can be followed. Are you saying that the rule of law should be ignored?

I've never particularly liked appeals to law. Plenty of laws are bad, or reprehensible, something this forum in particular takes the trouble to point out when we see them.
As for the particular idea that a group shouldn't secede without the acquiescence of the rest of the country, we ignored it for Kosovo. Belgrade wasn't too happy about that if I remember correctly. Nor was London when the Irish, ha, and the Americans illegally seceded.
The cause of the Basques and Chechnyans would be dear to my heart, Chechnya in particular being relevant here and I'd hate for their future efforts to continue to be stymied by such logic.
All this presupposes, it should go without saying, a fair and independent referendum in the territory, which the Crimean referendum was not, but the principle is sound I believe. Any other solution is just the exercise of force by a belligerent.

oscarBravo

Sulla Felix wrote: »

I've never particularly liked appeals to law. Plenty of laws are bad, or reprehensible, something this forum in particular takes the trouble to point out when we see them.

When the alternative to an appeal to law is an appeal to violence, I'll generally take my chances with even a bad law.

stevejazzx

Getting away from MH17 for the moment -

Robins thinking with regard this current conflict and the annexation of Crimea seems to be steadfastly in line with western propaganda on the issue.
And while he is generally correct in his assessment on most parts, in particular those regarding Russia's ills, he leaves no room whatsoever for apportioning blame towards American interference or by acknowledging the legitimate concerns Russia had / have concerning their borders.

John McCain visited Ukraine to support rebels (shard the platform to with ultra fascists, neo-nazi Svoboda party as did Victoria Nuland (who made time to hand out cookies) the same Nuland who can be heard here discussing what she thinks should be the new political assembly in Ukraine, and how the US and UN can "glue this thing" (ie her proposal of Yatsenyuk) - she finishes by saying that Joe Biden (whose son sits on the board of Ukrainian gas company Burisma) was willing to get behind it also. The tape shows absolute, unquestionable American interference in the Ukrainian political system.
Not only this but the US has been for many years supporting a Ukrainian revolution covertly through NGO's. Here's just one example

The US is accused of paying protesters
The US spent 65m aiding groups around the time of and leading up to the Orange Revolution


So with, what is unquestionable proof (dare I use the word) that the US is balls deep in Ukrainian interference for the last 15 years (at least) some continue to blithely reissue the standard US party line.

I appreciate and acknowledge the evils of modern Russia under Putin and I don't for second defend or excuse them - but it's not black and white - he's not the lone bad guy - he is being (out)played everyday by vastly superior western propaganda. There is no doubt that US wants to extend it's so called sphere of influence in Russia's backyard; compete with its oil and gas monopolies and maybe even have a war with Russia if that's what it takes. A brief look at the history of the CIA in South America and the Middle east shows that they have doing exactly the same thing since the end of WW2.

Sulla Felix

oscarBravo wrote: »

When the alternative to an appeal to law is an appeal to violence, I'll generally take my chances with even a bad law.

So you think that Chechnya shouldn't have the right to secede from Russia?

oscarBravo

Sulla Felix wrote: »

So you think that Chechnya shouldn't have the right to secede from Russia?

I'm fairly certain I didn't say that.

recedite

robindch wrote: »

I have no idea what you're referring to.

I am referring to the "bomb them into submission" tactic being pursued by the Kiev regime in order to solve the problem of wrong nationalism among people in the east.
Their "National Guard" of neo-fascists which is almost exclusively recruited in western regions have raised the national flag in Sloviansk, but only after reducing it to rubble. Now they have moved on to Luhansk and Donetsk.

According to OSCE observers;

There was shelling of Luhansk city on 18 and 19 July. On 19 July, the SMM went to a city-centre location, where they observed a large crater beside a bus stop. Shattered windows and shrapnel fragments in the walls of two nearby six-storey buildings were seen, and blood and body parts along the pavement and road. The same day, the SMM observed five houses reduced to rubble on the outskirts of the city. The SMM observed the remains of a rocket of an indeterminable type at the scene.
The SMM received casualty figures from two sources. The head of the local emergency services department in Luhansk city informed the SMM on 19 July that 20 people had been killed and 150 injured in Luhansk city on 17 and 18 July. The head of the city morgue informed the SMM on 19 July that 29 people had been killed on 18 and 19 July. He said five of the victims were women, and all but one were civilians. At the morgue, the SMM saw a man and a woman carrying a small, child-sized, coffin.

Once a town is "recaptured" it is also necessary to import "civilian" policemen with the correct attitude to maintain law and order;

In the Chernivtsi region, the SMM met on 19 July the recently-appointed police chief of Hyboka district, who said that seven of the 70 police officers in the district had volunteered for duty in the east. The SMM has been informed that police ranks in Sloviansk in the Donetsk region are being filled by officers from all across Ukraine.

source

The whole process makes the "policing" or burning of Cork by the Black & Tans look benevolent.

Corkfeen

One of the Russian separatist leaders has confirmed they were in possession of BUK that they received from Russia.

"I knew that a BUK came from Luhansk. At the time I was told that a BUK from Luhansk was coming under the flag of the LNR," he said, referring to the Luhansk People’s Republic, the main rebel group operating in Luhansk, one of two rebel provinces along with Donetsk, the province where the crash took place.

"That BUK I know about. I heard about it. I think they sent it back. Because I found out about it at exactly the moment that I found out that this tragedy had taken place. They probably sent it back in order to remove proof of its presence," Khodakovsky told Reuters on Tuesday.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/23/us-ukraine-crisis-commander-exclusive-idUSKBN0FS1V920140723?utm_source=twitter

recedite

If his account is true, it also confirms the presence of Ukrainian jet(s) in the vicinity at the time, either using the passenger plane as cover for their approach, or deliberately drawing fire onto it.

Turtwig

Or you know just being in the vicinity. Doubt many people from that culture would be able to comfortably draw an innocent passenger jet into the firing line. I know I wouldn't. Jesus, if I even remotely felt I was responsible for a missile hitting a passenger jet I wouldn't be able to live with myself. I'd say most other people are the same.

Mardy Bum

Turtwig wrote: »

Or you know just being in the vicinity. Doubt many people from that culture would be able to comfortably draw an innocent passenger jet into the firing line. I know I wouldn't. Jesus, if I even remotely felt I was responsible for a missile hitting a passenger jet I wouldn't be able to live with myself. I'd say most other people are the same.

Looking at some of the footage of the separatists, I wouldn't describe them as a most people.

jimeryan22

Bbc article... For all you there's no nazis in Ukraine.. Someone begs to differ..

http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28329329

Hotblack Desiato

recedite wrote: »

If his account is true, it also confirms the presence of Ukrainian jet(s) in the vicinity at the time, either using the passenger plane as cover for their approach, or deliberately drawing fire onto it.

How does an airliner at 33,000 feet provide 'cover' to a military plane at half that, or less?

Corkfeen

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Bbc article... For all you there's no nazis in Ukraine.. Someone begs to differ..

http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28329329

Who said there was no nazis in Ukraine? I think most are aware of the issue of fascism in Ukraine.

robindch

Corkfeen wrote: »

Who said there was no nazis in Ukraine?

No one did.

Corkfeen wrote: »

I think most are aware of the issue of fascism in Ukraine.

The far right exists in Ukraine as it does in just about every other European country. It's difficult to assess the exact level of support as it varies according to the polling method, the election and so on, but it's certainly small.

In the presidential election a few weeks back, more people (2.25%) voted for Vadim Rabinovich, a famously jewish business mogul, than voted for the two far-right win parties - Right Sektor and Svoboda -- managed between them (1.86%). Svoboda holds 36 out of 450 seats in the national parliament. The current 19-member cabinet has seven independents, six from the Fatherland party, two from the Freedom Party, three members whose alignment I haven't been able to establish and Oleksandr Sych, the only member of Svobonda. FWIW, Sych, has claimed that his views are right wing, but not Nazi and from a quick read of them some time ago, I tend to think that while they're certainly far-right, they align more with UKIP than Hitler.

It is manifestly false to suggest that the administration in Kiev is in any way run by Nazi's, or contains any significant Nazi power base, as Russian state-controlled media has been constantly screaming over the last six months.

BTW, I spoke with a few Svoboda people last February in Kiev. Yes, they're a fairly unpleasant lot, but the anger I saw was directed solely at Yanukovich and his policies.

stevejazzx

robindch wrote: »

No one did.The far right exists in Ukraine as it does in just about every other European country. It's difficult to assess the exact level of support as it varies according to the polling method, the election and so on, but it's certainly small.

In the presidential election a few weeks back, more people (2.25%) voted for Vadim Rabinovich, a famously jewish business mogul, than voted for the two far-right win parties - Right Sektor and Svoboda -- managed between them (1.86%). Svoboda holds 36 out of 450 seats in the national parliament. The current 19-member cabinet has seven independents, six from the Fatherland party, two from the Freedom Party, three members whose alignment I haven't been able to establish and Oleksandr Sych, the only member of Svobonda.








It is manifestly false to suggest that the administration in Kiev is in any way run by Nazi's, or contains any significant Nazi power base, as Russian state-controlled media has been constantly screaming over the last six months.

BTW, I spoke with a few Svoboda people last February in Kiev. Yes, they're a fairly unpleasant lot, but the anger I saw was directed solely at Yanukovich and his policies.

That's a fairly nice way of representing Robin
In the interim government in Ukraine they had member who was deputy Prime Minister and as one deputy of defense.

And looking at these figures Robin they awould appear to be vastly more well represented and influential than you described in your post

FWIW, Sych, has claimed that his views are right wing, but not Nazi and from a quick read of them some time ago, I tend to think that while they're certainly far-right, they align more with UKIP than Hitler.

This is just wrong - their historic figurehead is Stephan Bandera
They have a definitive history of of identifying as Nazi

Their policies are bananas; ultra nationalist nonsense; come on Robin!

recedite

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

How does an airliner at 33,000 feet provide 'cover' to a military plane at half that, or less?

How do you know the altitude of the warplane?
Are you familiar enough with the radar screen of a BUK missile launcher to definitively say that two radar blips at the same co-ordinates but different altitudes are easily discernible?

robindch

stevejazzx wrote: »

And looking at these figures Robin they awould appear to be vastly more well represented and influential than you described in your post

Have another read of my post - especially the bit where I describe their representation in the Rada.

stevejazzx wrote: »

This is just wrong - their historic figurehead is Stephan Bandera

Stepan (not Stephan) Bandera spent three years in a variety of Nazi concentration camps and was not a Nazi himself - he was a Ukrainian nationalist who tried to co-operate with the Nazi's to oust the Soviets from Ukraine.

stevejazzx wrote: »

Their policies are bananas; ultra nationalist nonsense; come on Robin!

I said that Svoboda's policies are more in line with UKIP than they are with Hitler and while you may disagree, having read some of their policies and spoken with some members of Svoboda (have you?), I stand by that assessment.

FWIW, I agree with you that they're bonkers, but I also think that UKIP are bonkers and the elected members of Sinn Fein, north and south, have probably committed more crimes than the elected members of Svoboda. But regardless of that, while Svoboda is far-right, it is not Nazi in any real sense and that unhelpful, untrue and unquenchable reach-for-the-godwin is what I'd like to see an end to.

jimeryan22

robindch wrote: »

Have another read of my post - especially the bit where I describe their representation in the Rada.Stepan (not Stephan) Bandera spent three years in a variety of Nazi concentration camps and was not a Nazi himself - he was a Ukrainian nationalist who tried to co-operate with the Nazi's to oust the Soviets from Ukraine.I said that Svoboda's policies are more in line with UKIP than they are with Hitler and while you may disagree, having read some of their policies and spoken with some members of Svoboda (have you?), I stand by that assessment.

FWIW, I agree with you that they're bonkers, but I also think that UKIP are bonkers and the elected members of Sinn Fein, north and south, have probably committed more crimes than the elected members of Svoboda. But regardless of that, while Svoboda is far-right, it is not Nazi in any real sense and that unhelpful, untrue and unquenchable reach-for-the-godwin is what I'd like to see an end to.

So we all here are to believe they're an ok bunch because you spoke to a member of their party and their anger is directed at yanukovich, and really their policy's are no worse than the other right wing party's..? Don't make laugh.. The 600 odd people they've used to the military to exterminate since the uprising would disagree..
Very suprised at your stance here robin..
What you just said about bandara is pure propaganda.. Nazi collaborator.. Fact..

recedite

Turtwig wrote: »

Doubt many people from that culture would be able to comfortably draw an innocent passenger jet into the firing line. I know I wouldn't. Jesus, if I even remotely felt I was responsible for a missile hitting a passenger jet I wouldn't be able to live with myself. I'd say most other people are the same.

I tend to agree, but on the other hand people will do things they wouldn't otherwise if they are "just following orders". Look at the bombing of Hiroshima, Dresden, Gaza etc... all mostly civilian casualties but "the end justifies the means".

Another possible scenario; if you were flying the Ukrainean warplane and realised the missile was locked on to you, with 20 seconds to impact, but by flying past the airliner you could trick the proximity detonator of the missile into detonating , thereby saving yourself, what would you do?

On a slightly related note, the two most dangerous seats in a car during a collision with an object are known to be the front passenger seat and the seat immediately behind the driver. This because at the last second, when the driver has to choose to swerve either left or right, the driver always swerves whichever way saves himself.

jimeryan22

An article from 2010....

http://www.fighthatred.com/recent-events/individual-hate/514-ukrainian-jews-outraged-over-the-honoring-of-stephan-bandera

robindch

jimeryan22 wrote: »

The 600 odd people they've used to the military to exterminate since the uprising would disagree.. Very suprised at your stance here robin..

You don't appear to be aware of any facts concerning this entire issue, even the fairly basic ones - I suspect that's why nobody's engaging with any of your posts.

robindch

recedite wrote: »

Another possible scenario; if you were flying the Ukrainean warplane and realised the missile was locked on to you, with 20 seconds to impact, but by flying past the airliner you could trick the proximity detonator of the missile into detonating , thereby saving yourself, what would you do?

I think most pilots would probably eject.

jimeryan22

robindch wrote: »

You don't appear to be aware of any facts concerning this entire issue, even the fairly basic ones - I suspect that's why nobody's engaging with any of your posts.

What a very odd post.. From nearly everything I've seen you post an odd person with a very ****ed up "moral" compass robin..
I think why so many seem to disagree with your posts here and most other threads I've seen. Funny that

Dades

jimeryan22 wrote: »

From nearly everything I've seen you post an odd person with a very ****ed up "moral" compass robin.

jimeryan22, please refrain from ad hominems of this nature.

You have been warned.

robindch

stevejazzx wrote: »

In the interim government in Ukraine they had member who was deputy Prime Minister and as one deputy of defense.

So far as I recall, they had four and very quickly, three (not two) members in the interim administration - the majority were junior positions, save for the minister of defense until he resigned in late March over accusations of inactivity - the opposite of what Russian media would have you think about Svoboda.

In any case, this now appears to be mostly irrelevant as Klitschko's UDAR and Svoboda both withdrew from coalition with PM Yatsenyuk's party. This paves the way for early parliamentary elections, which I think most people had been hoping for but the parliament had failed to pass legislation for. If they do, then I hope that they're called and held quickly, rather than having everybody hang around for months as they did for the presidential election.

stevejazzx

robindch wrote: »

Have another read of my post - especially the bit where I describe their representation in the Rada. Stepan (not Stephan) Bandera spent three years in a variety of Nazi concentration camps and was not a Nazi himself - he was a Ukrainian nationalist who tried to co-operate with the Nazi's to oust the Soviets from Ukraine.I said that Svoboda's policies are more in line with UKIP than they are with Hitler and while you may disagree, having read some of their policies and spoken with some members of Svoboda (have you?), I stand by that assessment.

FWIW, I agree with you that they're bonkers, but I also think that UKIP are bonkers and the elected members of Sinn Fein, north and south, have probably committed more crimes than the elected members of Svoboda. But regardless of that, while Svoboda is far-right, it is not Nazi in any real sense and that unhelpful, untrue and unquenchable reach-for-the-godwin is what I'd like to see an end to.

So the argument here that you're representing is that the Ukrainian far right, radical party, Svoboda have no Nazi affiliations and that we should believe that they are approaching the milder side of ultra nationalism, an oxymoron if ever I heard one?

This used to be their flag/logo



It was changed only because ultra nationalism cannot, generally, get ahead in modern politics. You mentioned Sinn Fein there - do you believe them when they say they've changed? Or do you think they, like Svoboda are playing the political game?

Quite how you can make a representation for these people and play down their affiliations and yet remain somehow entrenched in your unfaltering stance against the Russians is a remarkable piece of compartmentalization.
Anything related to the old communists and Putin is unquestionable propaganda yet official doctrine emanating from a far right nationalist group, and a couple of personally conducted roadside interviews, is enough for you to essentially equivocate them as party.

Do you feel that if one was to accept that Svoboda had, ultimately, Nazi leaning ideologies that it would be too difficult to gloss over the fact that the US, met them, shared a platform with them and essentially egged them on during the revolution? Would it make things a little too uncomfortable for those sticking to the western playbook of the events that have happened this year in Ukraine?

Hotblack Desiato

recedite wrote: »

How do you know the altitude of the warplane?

What warplane? You haven't established that one existed.
If there was one, it was most likely an Su-25 ground attack aircraft limited to 16,000 feet.

Are you familiar enough with the radar screen of a BUK missile launcher to definitively say that two radar blips at the same co-ordinates but different altitudes are easily discernible?

Are you familiar enough?

You have made a claim, that it is possible MH17 was being used as cover. Substantiate it.

Do you have evidence that there was a miiltary plane 'at the same co-ordinates' or indeed nearby? That's the first hurdle your claim has to clear.

recedite wrote: »

Another possible scenario; if you were flying the Ukrainean warplane and realised the missile was locked on to you, with 20 seconds to impact, but by flying past the airliner you could trick the proximity detonator of the missile into detonating , thereby saving yourself, what would you do?

This is just utterly ridiculous, comic book stuff.

recedite

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

What warplane? You haven't established that one existed.
If there was one, it was most likely an Su-25 ground attack aircraft limited to 16,000 feet..

I'm not making that claim, the Russian military made it originally, and now this separatist leader has said it too.
I said;

recedite wrote: »

If his account is true, it also confirms the presence of Ukrainian jet(s) in the vicinity at the time...

If you are correct that the non-existent warplane was a Su-25, then yes around 16,000 feet is the service ceiling when fully loaded with fuel and weaponry. But "service ceiling" is only the max. height at which the plane still operates at full efficiency. The actual height limit of the plane would be its "absolute ceiling" which is much higher, and which also depends on the weight it is carrying at the time.

Strange that the Ukrainian govt. still have not agreed to release transcripts or recordings from air traffic control conversations with MH17, which would shed more light on what was going on at the time.

recedite

robindch wrote: »

...This paves the way for early parliamentary elections, which I think most people had been hoping for but the parliament had failed to pass legislation for. If they do, then I hope that they're called and held quickly, rather than having everybody hang around for months as they did for the presidential election...

What are the chances of votes being counted in the rebel controlled areas of the east? The new parliament is likely to under-represent the views of people living in those areas, and be even more right wing than the current one.

Hotblack Desiato

recedite wrote: »

I'm not making that claim, the Russian military made it originally, and now this separatist leader has said it too.

And you are repeating this claim, so it's up to you to defend or abandon it.

If you are correct that the non-existent warplane was a Su-25, then yes around 16,000 feet is the service ceiling when fully loaded with fuel and weaponry.

A ground attack aircraft with no external stores isn't much use. Anyway, aerodynamically clean it's still limited to under 23,000 ft

But "service ceiling" is only the max. height at which the plane still operates at full efficiency. The actual height limit of the plane would be its "absolute ceiling" which is much higher, and which also depends on the weight it is carrying at the time.

Taking an aircraft to its absolute ceiling (where it can barely sustain level flight) is crazy, never mind doing this in a military aircraft in disputed airspace. There is no benefit to do so either, it makes one a sitting duck, on the contrary a ground attack mission will fly as low as possible to avoid radar.

Strange that the Ukrainian govt. still have not agreed to release transcripts or recordings from air traffic control conversations with MH17, which would shed more light on what was going on at the time.

They will be released but in accordance with the usual ICAO investigation procedure. The interim report stating the available facts usually takes six months. The full report stating the probable cause usually takes at least two years.

grols

terrorists in eastern Ukraine has shot down five helicopters, planes and 5, the total number of victims of human 382.
Not to mention Boeing.

I think that says it all

rocoso

putin is the winner and clearly outset himself to be knowing the western weakness .....

grols

putin is the winner???
Oh no, he only half-mad dictator who wants to rebuild the Soviet Union.
He holds high rank in more than 20 years. It has a great influence on the psyche

jimeryan22

grols wrote: »

terrorists in eastern Ukraine has shot down five helicopters, planes and 5, the total number of victims of human 382.
Not to mention Boeing.

I think that says it all

And how many victims since the conflict started by the unlawful terrorists running the government...?

grols

Losses from Ukraine:
Military losses of 330 killed and died of wounds, 655 wounded (according to the National Security Council of Ukraine)
Civil offerings to 478 people, 1392 - wounded

Loss of terrorists: to 1950 killed and died of wounds (including at least 33 Russian)

jimeryan22

grols wrote: »

Losses from Ukraine:
Military losses of 330 killed and died of wounds, 655 wounded (according to the National Security Council of Ukraine)
Civil offerings to 478 people, 1392 - wounded

Loss of terrorists: to 1950 killed and died of wounds (including at least 33 Russian)

The Ukrainian seperatists are not terrorists... That is another far too easy term that is now doing the rounds..

oscarBravo

jimeryan22 wrote: »

And how many victims since the conflict started by the unlawful terrorists running the government...?

jimeryan22 wrote: »

The Ukrainian seperatists are not terrorists... That is another far too easy term that is now doing the rounds..

Uh huh.

jimeryan22

oscarBravo wrote: »

Uh huh.

Uh huh ya feckin self

Corkfeen

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Uh huh ya feckin self

He's just pointing out your own double standard. If it makes you feel angry, chew some ice to vent.

robindch

recedite wrote: »

What are the chances of votes being counted in the rebel controlled areas of the east?

Given that Russian-backed gunmen stopped the presidential election from happening in around 80% of the Donetsk and Lugunsk oblasts, I'm inclined to agree with your concern -- unless they're dislodged, they're almost certain to try to deny Ukrainian citizens the right to vote in the parliamentary elections as well.

BTW, Aleksander Borodai, the self-proclaimed DPR leader, admitted links to Russian state security agencies in a BBC interview the other day. And, it seems Borodai appears to have some past form in preferring dictators to democracy.

jimeryan22

Corkfeen wrote: »

He's just pointing out your own double standard. If it makes you feel angry, chew some ice to vent.

My double standards...??? That is a good one.. His yours and a good few others round here are the double standard gang.. Not me..
You's are the ones repeating off talking points and propaganda lines from main stream media round here.. Even though there is not a shred of concrete proof yet..
So yeah.. Chew that Ice your talking about yourself.

Corkfeen

You just seem frustrated and don't seem to wish to address his criticism.

jimeryan22

Corkfeen wrote: »

You just seem frustrated and don't seem to wish to address his criticism.

Of course I'm frustrated seeing the same bollox all the time from the same people so happy to constantly suck up and then spit out the cliche lines.. Leads you to believe they are either just sheep or professional dis info agents... Always parroting out news lines the same as the media with no proof... Also makes you wonder if these same people are the same ones that sucked up "weapons of mass destruction, ties to al-queda, babies took out of incubators and thrown on the cold floor".... Etc etc etc

Corkfeen

So that's a no? Okay so.

jimeryan22

Corkfeen wrote: »

So that's a no? Okay so.

So that's as predictable response as per usual then....? Thinking it makes you look clever..

Corkfeen

jimeryan22 wrote: »

So that's as predictable response as per usual then....? Thinking it makes you look clever..

I asked you if it would be be possible to respond to the criticism. You haven't and that's fine. You clearly view us to be ill informed drones so I can't see a discussion with you going anywhere.