Can we have peaceful, national protests yet?

hatrickpatrick

marienbad wrote: »

No I don't agree the economic issues are irrelevant to the current debate , but there is no reason we can't tackle the two issues - the economy and ethics .

Personally I believe you have to tackle them separately, as people can have opposing views on economics but be in agreement about ethical issues, and if you mix them into the same thread it becomes possible to discredit someone based on one issue while ignoring the other. Happens frequently in Ireland.

I agree that the best way to do this is fundamental change but so far the electorate talks a good game but acts otherwise. They voted down the removal of the senate and increasing powers to the dail committees. SO what to you say to that ? If every time they try to bring in change it is voted down ?

Increasing powers to the Dail committees wasn't about changing the political structure, and most people I know who voted against it did so because it would have given politicians - who almost nobody trusts - the power to publicly smear people. Getting rid of the Seanad was perceived as something which would have got rid of one of the only checks on the power of the cabinet - this wasn't really true, but you can understand people's reluctance to do that. What we need is political reform which goes to the very heart of the system - the Dail is supposed to be a check on the power of the executive and not a rubber stamp. Until we change that, we do not live in a representative democracy.

You seem to have a particular bugbear about Shatter , may I ask why that is ?

I find it absolutely, mind numbingly outrageous that a private matter involving the police of a state and a citizen of that state could be revealed publicly by a minister responsible for overseeing the administration of justice, for no purpose other than political mud slinging, without that minister being kicked out of the cabinet. It's sleazy, it's revolting, it's something which shouldn't be tolerated in any capacity whatsoever.
It'd be akin to a Minister for Education being told on the sly that a serving politician failed Irish in the Leaving Cert, and dragging that into the public domain in a debate over education policy in order to silence a member of the opposition, or a minister for health finding out that somebody had seen a therapist for a psychological issue and using that to smear them in public. It's something which IMO should not be forgiven and should, on its own and without considering anything else, have immediately cost Shatter his job. I would be saying this regardless of any other factors and regardless of which politicians were in power - I believe there are some behaviors which are simply too outrageous to be tolerated, and there should be no ifs, no buts, you do certain things and you're gone. End of.

This may come across as harsh to some and I accept that, however I feel that subsequent scandals add weight to it. Shatter's victim blaming behavior with regard to the suspected bugging of GSOC was utterly appalling, and to then have the temerity to state in the Dail that "it's astounding that the opposition are focusing on process and not substance" - now you have blatant and indisputable hypocrisy to add on top of the sleaziness detailed above.

This is the kind of thing which causes people to lose faith in politics and democracy. If we want to have functioning self government, we cannot continue to tolerate this kind of behavior without penalizing it in some way.

For the record, I never had a bad word to say about Shatter before that incident, but I will never have anything but contempt for him following it.

As for abusing Dail privilege,if he did he should go. But I would disagree with removing Dail Privilege itself.

Can I ask why? Also, as far as I remember he didn't say it in the Dail but on Prime Time.

Going Forward

What does "yet" mean in the title thread?

renegademaster

Going Forward wrote: »

What does "yet" mean in the title thread?

well the people are intent on forgiving every last detail of corruption that comes out on a regular basis, so are we going to take back the power now or are we really going to wait til april 2016 to just vote another shower of corrupt ba$tards into power and just leave them at it for 5 years and so on

hatrickpatrick

renegademaster wrote: »

well the people are intent on forgiving every last detail of corruption that comes out on a regular basis

I'm not so sure if they are, I think people in Ireland are basically resigned to it and "war-weary" when it comes to trying to change things. Despair is not the same thing as apathy - apathy implies people don't care, despair implies that they do care but feel powerless to change anything, which is why I always ask people who scoff at the idea of protest "Is it because you're happy with how things are, or because you simply feel it's a waste of time trying to fix them?".

Despair and apathy require different arguments and different methods of persuasion, so I for one feel it's crucial to understand which of these issues is causing most of the resignation in Ireland. Until we figure that out, trying to stir up a campaign is probably a little pointless - akin to trying to market a product without first finding out why exactly people aren't buying it already.

Phoebas

renegademaster wrote: »

well the people are intent on forgiving every last detail of corruption that comes out on a regular basis, so are we going to take back the power now or are we really going to wait til april 2016 to just vote another shower of corrupt ba$tards into power and just leave them at it for 5 years and so on

How do you suggest we 'take back the power now'?
Maybe, issue a statement that unless the government immediately resign you'll escalate your boards.ie campaign to a full on Facebook campaign?

sarumite

Phoebas wrote: »

How do you suggest we 'take back the power now'?
Maybe, issue a statement that unless the government immediately resign you'll escalate your boards.ie campaign to a full on Facebook campaign?

I am more interested in what taking back the power would entail?

hatrickpatrick

Phoebas wrote: »

How do you suggest we 'take back the power now'?
Maybe, issue a statement that unless the government immediately resign you'll escalate your boards.ie campaign to a full on Facebook campaign?

This is exactly the kind of condescending eejitism which is spectacularly unhelpful in debates such as these.
As I've generally been asking, Phoebas, are you one of the ones who is happy with the status quo, or are you objecting because you don't think there's anything the public can do to change it?

marienbad

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This is exactly the kind of condescending eejitism which is spectacularly unhelpful in debates such as these.
As I've generally been asking, Phoebas, are you one of the ones who is happy with the status quo, or are you objecting because you don't think there's anything the public can do to change it?

It is not condescending at all ! it is a straight question - if we are not to use the electoral process what are we to use ?

So far all you are doing is venting .

comongethappy

renegademaster wrote: »

well the people are intent on forgiving every last detail of corruption that comes out on a regular basis, so are we going to take back the power now or are we really going to wait til april 2016 to just vote another shower of corrupt ba$tards into power and just leave them at it for 5 years and so on

When you come up with a real alternative to the fixed term parliamentary democracy we already have, we'd all love to hear it.

200+ posts long and all this thread has offered is bi-annual general elections & performance metrics based on anger..... With the hint of youthful idealism that if we keep firing enough people we will have the virginally uncorrupted populists you yearn for.

Iwasfrozen

renegademaster wrote: »

well the people are intent on forgiving every last detail of corruption that comes out on a regular basis, so are we going to take back the power now or are we really going to wait til april 2016 to just vote another shower of corrupt ba$tards into power and just leave them at it for 5 years and so on

In April 2016 you will have a chance to vote for someone who's not corrupt according to what your definition of corrupt is.

Phoebas

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This is exactly the kind of condescending eejitism which is spectacularly unhelpful in debates such as these.

Yeah - I don't have much time for people who spout on about 'taking back the power now', but then all they actually do is spend countless hours complaining on internet forums.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

As I've generally been asking, Phoebas, are you one of the ones who is happy with the status quo, or are you objecting because you don't think there's anything the public can do to change it?

I'm reasonably happy with how things are going - all things considered.
But everything isn't rosy and the public can change things through the normal democratic processes. Not by 'taking' power 'now' - that sounds deeply anti-democratic.

twowheelsgood

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

In April 2016 you will have a chance to vote for someone who's not corrupt according to what your definition of corrupt is.

Surely Feb 2016, at the latest?

Good news for the campaigners though! Two months less they will have to wait before the Irish electorate, in a move that they have never, ever. ever contemplated before, will decide en mass that they will not tolerate corruption, or low standards in high office.

renegademaster

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

In April 2016 you will have a chance to vote for someone who's not corrupt according to what your definition of corrupt is.

Phoebas wrote: »

Yeah - I don't have much time for people who spout on about 'taking back the power now', but then all they actually do is spend countless hours complaining on internet forums.


I'm reasonably happy with how things are going - all things considered.
But everything isn't rosy and the public can change things through the normal democratic processes. Not by 'taking' power 'now' - that sounds deeply anti-democratic.

twowheelsgood wrote: »

Surely Feb 2016, at the latest?

Good news for the campaigners though! Two months less they will have to wait before the Irish electorate, in a move that they have never, ever. ever contemplated before, will decide en mass that they will not tolerate corruption, or low standards in high office.

feb 2016 is still a joke tbh, sure cowens goevrnment and most of his party were wiped out of it in protest elections, this government has all but shown it intends to carry on regardless of how the people are feeling, they know we're pi$$ed off with them but as they said in their ard fheis the lack of protests are a sure ign of mass approval, does this not ring alarm bells to you, the ba$tards know they're out on their ears in 2 years time so what do you thing they're going to do from here on in?

all i'm saying is put some peaceful pressure by having large number meet for a cople of hours on a sat, what harm can it do to let them know that we're on to them and if they want to see out the next 2 years they't want to quit their guff now, or we'll be demanding and having elections when we say so, not when some corrupt ex-school teacher from mayo says so!!

christ on a fcuking bike already!!

twowheelsgood

renegademaster wrote: »

but as they said in their ard fheis the lack of protests are a sure ign of mass approval, does this not ring alarm bells to you

Had it occurred to you that they might be right, broadly speaking? That this massive dissatisfaction that was certainly there at the end of the last government’s tenure, simply is not there for the present one? Perhaps there is a critical mass of people who think this government is doing pretty much as well as might be expected?

renegademaster wrote: »

or we'll be demanding and having elections when we say so, not when some corrupt ex-school teacher from mayo says so!!

You can say many unflattering things about Kenny with some credibility in relation to his ability and even charisma, if you’re in to that. But to suggest he is corrupt, using any reasonable understanding of what counts as political corruption, is silly.

relax carry on

renegademaster wrote: »

feb 2016 is still a joke tbh, sure cowens goevrnment and most of his party were wiped out of it in protest elections, this government has all but shown it intends to carry on regardless of how the people are feeling, they know we're pi$$ed off with them but as they said in their ard fheis the lack of protests are a sure ign of mass approval, does this not ring alarm bells to you, the ba$tards know they're out on their ears in 2 years time so what do you thing they're going to do from here on in?

all i'm saying is put some peaceful pressure by having large number meet for a cople of hours on a sat, what harm can it do to let them know that we're on to them and if they want to see out the next 2 years they't want to quit their guff now, or we'll be demanding and having elections when we say so, not when some corrupt ex-school teacher from mayo says so!!

christ on a fcuking bike already!!

Have you considered that maybe quite a few people do not agree with your beliefs which maybe one of the reasons there are no large scale protests.

renegademaster

renegademaster wrote: »

feb 2016 is still a joke tbh, sure cowens goevrnment and most of his party were wiped out of it in protest elections, this government has all but shown it intends to carry on regardless of how the people are feeling, they know we're pi$$ed off with them but as they said in their ard fheis the lack of protests are a sure ign of mass approval, does this not ring alarm bells to you, the ba$tards know they're out on their ears in 2 years time so what do you thing they're going to do from here on in?

all i'm saying is put some peaceful pressure by having large number meet for a cople of hours on a sat, what harm can it do to let them know that we're on to them and if they want to see out the next 2 years they't want to quit their guff now, or we'll be demanding and having elections when we say so, not when some corrupt ex-school teacher from mayo says so!!

christ on a fcuking bike already!!

As other posters have said, the reason there are no protests is that the majority of Irish people see NOTHING to protest about! Things are far from perfect, but we are going in the right direction. It took guts to stick to their guns and their actions are proving correct. Spouting guff like "some corrupt ex-school teacher from mayo" shows a lack of maturity and understanding of democracy. People can see progress and have no reason to protest. There are always those who want everything handed to them on a plate. The majority of us know that we have to work for it and make sacrifices.

zoomaway

Deleted User wrote: »

As other posters have said, the reason there are no protests is that the majority of Irish people see NOTHING to protest about! Things are far from perfect, but we are going in the right direction. It took guts to stick to their guns and their actions are proving correct. Spouting guff like "some corrupt ex-school teacher from mayo" shows a lack of maturity and understanding of democracy. People can see progress and have no reason to protest. There are always those who want everything handed to them on a plate. The majority of us know that we have to work for it and make sacrifices.

Two hundred and fifty people per day leaving Ireland that could be considered a form of protest.
And how exactly are their actions proving to be correct?

This country is rotten and corrupt to the core.
Same old, same old.
There is plenty to protest about.
Roll on the elections...

Phoebas

zoomaway wrote: »

Two hundred and fifty people per day leaving Ireland that could be considered a form of protest.

People aren't emigrating in protest - they're emigrating because they can't find work in the economy, which is one of the measures that we've seen much better then expected improvements in the last year or so.

zoomaway

zoomaway wrote: »

Two hundred and fifty people per day leaving Ireland that could be considered a form of protest.
And how exactly are their actions proving to be correct?

This country is rotten and corrupt to the core.
Same old, same old.
There is plenty to protest about.
Roll on the elections...

Yes, wait for the elections. When FG are returned to power, what will you complain about then? Not all the 250(wherever you got those figures) leaving are doing so out of protest. Most of the young singles who left are living the life of their dreams in sunnier climes, with their friends by their side. Young people have done this forever. A bit of positive thinking and support for the efforts of the Government would do wonders for your morale. Give them a chance.

zoomaway

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, wait for the elections. When FG are returned to power, what will you complain about then? Not all the 250(wherever you got those figures) leaving are doing so out of protest. Most of the young singles who left are living the life of their dreams in sunnier climes, with their friends by their side. Young people have done this forever. A bit of positive thinking and support for the efforts of the Government would do wonders for your morale. Give them a chance.

No thank you I'm not in the happy clappy camp.

I LIVE IN THE REAL WORLD.

You should try it sometime.

SLAN.

yosserhughes

Deleted User wrote: »

As other posters have said, the reason there are no protests is that the majority of Irish people see NOTHING to protest about! Things are far from perfect, but we are going in the right direction. It took guts to stick to their guns and their actions are proving correct. Spouting guff like "some corrupt ex-school teacher from mayo" shows a lack of maturity and understanding of democracy. People can see progress and have no reason to protest. There are always those who want everything handed to them on a plate. The majority of us know that we have to work for it and make sacrifices.

Nothing to protest about? Are you crazy or what ,we are on our knees and being kicked when we are down and all through no fault of our own...Our country has been sold out all because of a bunch of corrupt back slapping politicians/developers/bankers most of who are living in the lap of luxury while the majority of ordinary people are struggling to make ends meet ,and you say we have nothing to protest about..KOP ON

marienbad

yosserhughes wrote: »

Nothing to protest about? Are you crazy or what ,we are on our knees and being kicked when we are down and all through no fault of our own...Our country has been sold out all because of a bunch of corrupt back slapping politicians/developers/bankers most of who are living in the lap of luxury while the majority of ordinary people are struggling to make ends meet ,and you say we have nothing to protest about..KOP ON

That was the last crowd and we got rid of them. We can't undo the past . We just have to soldier on as best we can and so far (with some massive exceptions) the current outfit are doing better than we could have hoped 3 years ago.

That is the reality and that is why we have no protests.

yosserhughes

yosserhughes wrote: »

Nothing to protest about? Are you crazy or what ,we are on our knees and being kicked when we are down and all through no fault of our own...Our country has been sold out all because of a bunch of corrupt back slapping politicians/developers/bankers most of who are living in the lap of luxury while the majority of ordinary people are struggling to make ends meet ,and you say we have nothing to protest about..KOP ON

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/end-of-austerity-well-escape-15bn-in-cuts-30176289.html

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/esri-budget-must-not-contain-tax-cuts-265059.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/esri-predicts-economy-to-expand-at-fastest-rate-since-2006-1.1758026

renegademaster

marienbad wrote: »

That was the last crowd and we got rid of them. We can't undo the past . We just have to soldier on as best we can and so far (with some massive exceptions) the current outfit are doing better than we could have hoped 3 years ago.

That is the reality and that is why we have no protests.

will you open your eyes and try remember all the corrupt actions fine gael and labour have gotten up to or happily continued on from FF!! jaysus they even changed illegal bonds in the middle of the night because a citizen of the state was going to expose the whole charade!! that's only one example

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/end-of-austerity-well-escape-15bn-in-cuts-30176289.html

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/esri-budget-must-not-contain-tax-cuts-265059.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/esri-predicts-economy-to-expand-at-fastest-rate-since-2006-1.1758026

fcuking lol!! the country is doing so good that we have to now start feeding 600,000 people with food banks being setup across the country

renegademaster

renegademaster wrote: »

fcuking lol!! the country is doing so good that we have to now start feeding 600,000 people with food banks being setup across the country

Please don't curse.

Can you give a link to that number, please?

MilanPan!c

It's funny, marching around does feck all because the politicians do not care. They know we have limited political options and stomping around in the rain, blowing whistles and disrupting traffic doesn't generate a threat to them.

There's also very simple ways to create real change, if enough people wanted to sacrifice.

But they don't.

So threads like this are an exercise in futility.

Come back to me when 10k people are willing to go to jail for change and we'll talk. Right now it's just noise.

marienbad

renegademaster wrote: »

will you open your eyes and try remember all the corrupt actions fine gael and labour have gotten up to or happily continued on from FF!! jaysus they even changed illegal bonds in the middle of the night because a citizen of the state was going to expose the whole charade!! that's only one example



fcuking lol!! the country is doing so good that we have to now start feeding 600,000 people with food banks being setup across the country

Grow up and try a make some coherent arguments and I might take you seriously.

zoomaway

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Bringing down the government won't change anything. It's the structure of our establishment that's the problem, not the people we put in it.
Changing the petrol won't help if the engine itself is bollocksed. We need a new engine.

That's a really good point.

renegademaster

Deleted User wrote: »

Please don't curse.

Can you give a link to that number, please?

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/food-banks-to-tackle-poverty-crisis-264290.html

Food banks are to be set up by charities across the country in an attempt to feed the estimated 600,000 people suffering from food poverty.


The move is a collaboration between Bia Food Bank, an Irish charity formed in June 2012, and St Vincent de Paul, which has a target distributing up to 20,000 tonnes of food annually to needy people.


The first food distribution hub will be established in Cork on June 1. A second hub will become operational in Dublin before the end of the year.
The charities plan to open one in Galway next year, followed by depots in Limerick, Sligo, and Waterford or Wexford. Interest has also been expressed from smaller charitable groups in Kerry and Sligo about setting up facilities there.

MilanPan!c

renegademaster wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/food-banks-to-tackle-poverty-crisis-264290.html

Food banks are to be set up by charities across the country in an attempt to feed the estimated 600,000 people suffering from food poverty.


The move is a collaboration between Bia Food Bank, an Irish charity formed in June 2012, and St Vincent de Paul, which has a target distributing up to 20,000 tonnes of food annually to needy people.


The first food distribution hub will be established in Cork on June 1. A second hub will become operational in Dublin before the end of the year.
The charities plan to open one in Galway next year, followed by depots in Limerick, Sligo, and Waterford or Wexford. Interest has also been expressed from smaller charitable groups in Kerry and Sligo about setting up facilities there.

I'm dubious about that number, considering multiple articles from March place the number at (a shocking) 9-10% of the population, or about 475k people.

That number is based on an OECD study.

Here's a graph exploring that number:



Plenty of info out there about this.

It's valuable to note that food poverty in Ireland is - less bad - than in places like France, Canada, Spain, New Zealand, South Korea and the US.

yosserhughes

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/end-of-austerity-well-escape-15bn-in-cuts-30176289.html

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/esri-budget-must-not-contain-tax-cuts-265059.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/esri-predicts-economy-to-expand-at-fastest-rate-since-2006-1.1758026

I do not read propaganda...Oh ye and if austerity is ant an end...
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/food-banks-to-tackle-poverty-crisis-264290.html

twowheelsgood

yosserhughes wrote: »

I do not read propaganda...Oh ye and if austerity is ant an end...
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/food-banks-to-tackle-poverty-crisis-264290.html

If you are going to argue that a publication is a propaganda organ it is generally best that you don't then immediately reference the same organ is support of your own argument, don't you think?

zoomaway

MilanPan!c wrote: »

I'm dubious about that number, considering multiple articles from March place the number at (a shocking) 9-10% of the population, or about 475k people.

That number is based on an OECD study.

Here's a graph exploring that number:



Plenty of info out there about this.

It's valuable to note that food poverty in Ireland is - less bad - than in places like France, Canada, Spain, New Zealand, South Korea and the US.

Surprised to see we are in a worse position than the UK considering our size.
Even the thought of having to open food banks to feed our people turns my stomach.
So sad and so wrong that some people can't afford to buy food.
Only for the cheaper supermarkets more people would be going hungry.

Phoebas

There was a protest march in Dublin today against the JobsBridge scheme.
Organised by Paul Murphy MEP, the ScamBridge website, the CWU and the USI - it attracted 100 protesters.

MilanPan!c

Phoebas wrote: »

There was a protest march in Dublin today against the JobsBridge scheme.
Organised by Paul Murphy MEP, the ScamBridge website, the CWU and the USI - it attracted 100 protesters.

Seems about right...

Banjo String

Phoebas wrote: »

There was a protest march in Dublin today against the JobsBridge scheme.
Organised by Paul Murphy MEP, the ScamBridge website, the CWU and the USI - it attracted 100 protesters.

Meanwhile in Paris and in Rome.

http://news.yahoo.com/thousands-march-paris-rome-against-austerity-economic-reforms-175623444--business.html

MilanPan!c

Banjo String wrote: »

Meanwhile in Paris and in Rome.

http://news.yahoo.com/thousands-march-paris-rome-against-austerity-economic-reforms-175623444--business.html

And watch how much good it will do there.

Banjo String

MilanPan!c wrote: »

And watch how much good it will do there.

Point being that in other countries, "tens of thousands" are protesting against austerity.

garhjw

It's the greed often people that has necessitated austerity in the first place

If someone is in need of food banks, then let them avail of them. A lot of families would be better served by offering simple home economics classes, showing how to cater for a family on a budget. Those figures for children going to school hungry are misleading too. Why are they hungry? How many are hungry due to genuine lack of money to buy food? Or how many are the offspring of parents unwilling or unable to cater for their basic needs.
Regarding Paul Murphy's protest, isn't he the one that wants to cut taxes and have a minimum wage of at least €13. WTF would that do to the smaller business person who is hanging on by the skin of his teeth?
Protests only irritate the right minded citizen and waste precious resources in policing them.
Austerity isn't nice. However, I'll bet that we have all learned to look more carefully at our money before spending it!

MilanPan!c

Banjo String wrote: »

Point being that in other countries, "tens of thousands" are protesting against austerity.

Suuuree ... But since it won't have an impact, who cares?

Banjo String

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Suuuree ... But since it won't have an impact, who cares?

Can I have a go on your crystal ball when you're finished with it?

zoomaway

Banjo String wrote: »

Can I have a go on your crystal ball when you're finished with it?

Me too.

MilanPan!c

Banjo String wrote: »

Can I have a go on your crystal ball when you're finished with it?

Sure.


But the reality is you don't need a crystal ball to see that marching around complaining hasnt made any politician do anything or even pressured them meaningfully for decades.

You can PRETEND it's going to do something and sure anything is possible, but in this case unlikely enough to make it nonsensical.

Do you remember the million man march? The millions that marched against the Iraq war? And the list goes on.

Very few things can make a difference aside from professional media campaigns and even then... Well... Most change is temporary at best.

Remember the massive destruction of FF? How it was gonna change everything.

Whoops!

People that want change have real options but marching around isn't a real one.

MilanPan!c

Two million March against Obamacare:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1213056/Up-million-march-US-Capitol-protest-Obamas-spending-tea-party-demonstration.html

Outcome? Obamacare is the law.

2003 March against the Iraq war - which was held in 600 cities and had up to 30 million people:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_15,_2003_anti-war_protest

Outcome: War in Iraq killing millions.

Should I go on?

People have been marching around in Ireland, protesting, continuously, since 2008.

How's that worked out? Are all the bankers in jail? Has austerity ended?

But sure, keep on marching. Lol.

Phoebas

The pensioners had some success a few years back when they took to the streets, so I wouldn't say that protesting is entirely ineffectual.
If you have a specific enough demand and you have enough political strength then there is a chance that you can affect political change.

But these general marches against austerity are pointless because the government just hasn't the power to make big changes in that area - you may as well be marching for better weather.

If the austerity protesters were to pick a specific piece of 'austerity', like a cut to some particular social welfare benefit, and held some protests on that (preferably including the people who are impacted by the cut) then there might be some chance that the government might rethink one cut and substitute another.

They overestimate their strength. A few hundred people taking to the streets isn't going to overturn central planks of government policy - and why should it?

MilanPan!c

Phoebas wrote: »

The pensioners had some success a few years back when they took to the streets, so I wouldn't say that protesting is entirely ineffectual.
If you have a specific enough demand and you have enough political strength then there is a chance that you can affect political change.

But these general marches against austerity are pointless because the government just hasn't the power to make big changes in that area - you may as well be marching for better weather.

If the austerity protesters were to pick a specific piece of 'austerity', like a cut to some particular social welfare benefit, and held some protests on that (preferably including the people who are impacted by the cut) then there might be some chance that the government might rethink one cut and substitute another.

They overestimate their strength. A few hundred people taking to the streets isn't going to overturn central planks of government policy - and why should it?

The pensioners had success because they managed to get on the radio and tele all day every day... they hired good PR people and it put REAL pressure on the pols... they could have easily done the same without the marching - and sans the PR side, the marching would have been a failure.

We know this because media exposure works - on occasion - even without marching, and marching without PR never does.

There's PLENTY of ways to affect change, and sure everyone knows this... but no one here is willing to sacrifice for it so... you know... if it makes you feel better to waste your time and accomplish nothing, do it... but don't expect people to join you... it's a waste of time...

The Pensioners had only limited success. They managed to push the changes down the road. Medial Cards are now means rested. They have lost Phone and Electricity allowances.

Phoebas

MilanPan!c wrote: »

The pensioners had success because they managed to get on the radio and tele all day every day... they hired good PR people and it put REAL pressure on the pols... they could have easily done the same without the marching - and sans the PR side, the marching would have been a failure.

We know this because media exposure works - on occasion - even without marching, and marching without PR never does.

There's PLENTY of ways to affect change, and sure everyone knows this... but no one here is willing to sacrifice for it so... you know... if it makes you feel better to waste your time and accomplish nothing, do it... but don't expect people to join you... it's a waste of time...

The thing I remember most about the pensioners campaign was the fact that they could mobilise their ranks to take to the streets - if a person is willing to physically get out and protest its a sure sign that they're also willing to use their vote to advance that goal. If you have large numbers, in a demographic who do cast their vote, then you have political strength.
The fact that they could get thousands of people out on the streets was a key part of the PR strategy that got their representatives onto TV and radio.

Mind you, I can't see a threat by the typical anti austerity protesters that they wont vote for the establishment parties in the next election if they don't get their way having the same impact.

zoomaway

Deleted User wrote: »

If someone is in need of food banks, then let them avail of them. A lot of families would be better served by offering simple home economics classes, showing how to cater for a family on a budget. Those figures for children going to school hungry are misleading too. Why are they hungry? How many are hungry due to genuine lack of money to buy food? Or how many are the offspring of parents unwilling or unable to cater for their basic needs.
Regarding Paul Murphy's protest, isn't he the one that wants to cut taxes and have a minimum wage of at least €13. WTF would that do to the smaller business person who is hanging on by the skin of his teeth?
Protests only irritate the right minded citizen and waste precious resources in policing them.
Austerity isn't nice. However, I'll bet that we have all learned to look more carefully at our money before spending it!

I can't actually believe what you have written ' protests only irritate the right minded citizen.'

As for home economics classes for those struggling to eat I think that is extremely patronising.

Perhaps you should take a few classes in empathy and how to lose a self righteous attitude.