How many...

Aidan_M_M

How many new campers registered in the Republic , in 2013 , 2012 and 2010 , would ye think?

650Ginge

Aidan_M_M wrote: »

How many new campers registered in the Republic , in 2013 , 2012 and 2010 , would ye think?

So not imports already regd first abroad. I reckon 50-60 for the three years.

Martin_D

Aidan_M_M wrote: »

How many new campers registered in the Republic , in 2013 , 2012 and 2010 , would ye think?

2010 total registrations - 10,000
2012 - 12,000
2013 - 14,000

guesstimates.
new regs
2010 - 500
2012 - 1200
2013 - 1300

No basis other than the numbers seem to be jumping up based on observation of our roads

Aidan_M_M

ok , here's a clue . 250 in 2010 .

Malta1

Aidan_M_M wrote: »

ok , here's a clue . 250 in 2010 .

I'll tell ya something - youll never make a radio show quiz host with clues like that :eek:

Aidan_M_M

34 in 2012,.... 27 in 2013.... Thank you VRT, for destroying sales!

spaceHopper

Tell me, they reduced the VRT on pop and tin top campers, has that had any affect , or do you only sell bigger motor homes? Is there not a market there that is being over looked?

If the VRT is constantly different for the same camper or they are over valuing it then there is a good chance that they are guessing and seeing who complains, kick up a fuss or lodge an appeal every time eventually they will stop doing it because it causes them more paper work.

CJhaughey

If they made VRT 500 instead of 200 it would have been a much better option, after all a Camper for most people is a discretionary purchase and if the VRT rates are punitive, opaque and unjust then people simply vote with their feet and discontinue buying them.
Its doing nothing for the stock of campers in the country which means the secondhand market is effectively capped at Pre-VRT levels.
Campers still are the only vehicle in Ireland that you cannot buy and import without knowing your VRT liability before point of entry into the state.
This uncertainty makes people very reluctant to buy.
Unwise decision on the part of whoever made the decision to alter the flat rate to OMSP.
Having said that Aidan and other camper dealers should make a submission to the Revenue and explain the case and ask for a change in the law.

Aidan_M_M

CJhaughey wrote: »

If they made VRT 500 instead of 200 it would have been a much better option, after all a Camper for most people is a discretionary purchase and if the VRT rates are punitive, opaque and unjust then people simply vote with their feet and discontinue buying them.
Its doing nothing for the stock of campers in the country which means the secondhand market is effectively capped at Pre-VRT levels.
Campers still are the only vehicle in Ireland that you cannot buy and import without knowing your VRT liability before point of entry into the state.
This uncertainty makes people very reluctant to buy.
Unwise decision on the part of whoever made the decision to alter the flat rate to OMSP.
Having said that Aidan and other camper dealers should make a submission to the Revenue and explain the case and ask for a change in the law.

We all have complained constantly since 2010. To no avail.

niloc1951

Aidan_M_M wrote: »

We all have complained constantly since 2010. To no avail.

Has the trade a representative body who have made a reasoned submission at political level about the damage to jobs, the questionable legality of a tax which is not determinable before a transaction, the ageing of the national fleet, etc. etc.

Motorcaravanning here in Ireland is still in relative infancy. Recognition of the financial benefits which local communities can derive from motorhome based tourists leading to better and more widespread parking facilities would be very useful. Such a change of attitude would benefit not only benefit our indigenous sales and service industry through increased use of motorhomes but also reduce the flight to the more welcoming environment of mainland Europe every year and encourage more European motorhome tourists to our country.

Irishgoatman

niloc1951 wrote: »

Has the trade a representative body who have made a reasoned submission at political level about the damage to jobs, the questionable legality of a tax which is not determinable before a transaction, the ageing of the national fleet, etc. etc.

Not sure that I follow this argument. If you buy a second hand vehicle through the trade then surely the price includes VRT ?.
I don't see any financial advantage in the trade fighting on behalf of those who buy privately and then have to argue over the VRT with Custome and Excise.

Or am I missing something?.

niloc1951

Irishgoatman wrote: »

Not sure that I follow this argument. If you buy a second hand vehicle through the trade then surely the price includes VRT ?.
I don't see any financial advantage in the trade fighting on behalf of those who buy privately and then have to argue over the VRT with Custome and Excise.

Or am I missing something?.

Basic point is nobody, even those in the trade, have any idea of the final cost as the VRT is calculated on a notional OMSP after the vehicle has been purchased from the supplier.
The higher the VRT the higher the OMSP, the higher the OMSP the higher the VRT, and on it goes, it would seem to be a self perpetuating upwards cycle.

WE can't argue against a VRT, it's a local tax, but it would be much more transparent if it was based on the invoice price of a vehicle, be it a domestic purchase of a new vehicle or an imported vehicle.

Irishgoatman

niloc1951 wrote: »

Basic point is nobody, even those in the trade, have any idea of the final cost as the VRT is calculated on a notional OMSP after the vehicle has been purchased from the supplier.
The higher the VRT the higher the OMSP, the higher the OMSP the higher the VRT, and on it goes, it would seem to be a self perpetuating upwards cycle.

WE can't argue against a VRT, it's a local tax, but it would be much more transparent if it was based on the invoice price of a vehicle, be it a domestic purchase of a new vehicle or an imported vehicle.

Thanks niloc, never having bought a second hand imported vehicle through a garage I assumed, something you should never do, that the advertised price on a commercial forecourt included all taxes.

I've agreed all along that the system of calculating VRT after you purchase is totally wrong. Perhaps it needs someone to take it to the European Courts of Justice?.

Just re-read your post. Do you mean that the garage has the VRT calculated after purchasing and importing a vehicle the same as a private buyer?.

moodrater

Irishgoatman wrote: »

Thanks niloc, never having bought a second hand imported vehicle through a garage I assumed, something you should never do, that the advertised price on a commercial forecourt included all taxes.

I've agreed all along that the system of calculating VRT after you purchase is totally wrong. Perhaps it needs someone to take it to the European Courts of Justice?.

Just re-read your post. Do you mean that the garage has the VRT calculated after purchasing and importing a vehicle the same as a private buyer?.

There was a case that was dragged out for 18 years unfortunately the lawyers concentrated on a monetary compensation in the end the judge said "the legislation entitled Revenue to relate the tax to the open-market selling price of the vehicle as well as to the car sales guide as used by the main car dealers" and basically ignored the injunction that was sought requiring the publication of values of new and used cars for the purpose of calculating VRT.

niloc1951

Irishgoatman wrote: »

Thanks niloc, never having bought a second hand imported vehicle through a garage I assumed, something you should never do, that the advertised price on a commercial forecourt included all taxes.

I've agreed all along that the system of calculating VRT after you purchase is totally wrong. Perhaps it needs someone to take it to the European Courts of Justice?.

Just re-read your post. Do you mean that the garage has the VRT calculated after purchasing and importing a vehicle the same as a private buyer?.

All VRT is calculated as a percentage of the OMSP, therefore a trade importer of either new or second-hand campers will have the VRT based 'someones' opinion of what the OMSP for that vehicle will be.

Irishgoatman

niloc1951 wrote: »

All VRT is calculated as a percentage of the OMSP, therefore a trade importer of either new or second-hand campers will have the VRT based 'someones' opinion of what the OMSP for that vehicle will be.

Yes niloc I know that but whereas new vehicles have a, more or less, set retail price second hand vehicles don't. So if a dealer imports a second hand vehicle does he do so without knowing how much the VRT will be in the same way as a private buyer importing a vehicle?.

Perhaps Aidan_M_M could/should answer this one for me.

Aidan_M_M

Yes , we are at the whim and mercy of the Revenue/VRO . That said , there's feck all being imported , the prices abroad and in the UK are gone through the roof .

Not alone do we not know the VRT , the system is not consistent . Every MH registered is viewed by the VRO independently , data from one registered being of Make X , model Y and level of equipment Z , will NOT be used the next time an XYZ is presented for registration .

For instance , we sold a new factory built Van , of the standard Adria Twin layout . Not quite a month later we sold another one . Identical . I mean literally the same , same chassis , layout equipment level , even the feckin colour was the same (not white btw) . The VRO came back looking for the guts of E1200 MORE for the second one! And there was no explanation why . Currency hadn't changed , nor any taxation rates .

niloc1951

Irishgoatman wrote: »

Yes niloc I know that but whereas new vehicles have a, more or less, set retail price second hand vehicles don't. So if a dealer imports a second hand vehicle does he do so without knowing how much the VRT will be in the same way as a private buyer importing a vehicle?.

Perhaps Aidan_M_M could/should answer this one for me.

That's the circular nature of VRT, the OMSP is determined by the VRT, the VRT is determined by the OMSP.
In the situation where the vehicle is a new import by a dealer the VRT is included in, and determined by, the listed selling price, NOTE not the actual selling price which might eventually be heavily discounted,which is determined by the VRT (plus other 'mark-ups'), which goes to determine the OMSP. :rolleyes:

Aidan_M_M

They have a long winded bizarre formula , based on their guesstimate of the price of the vehicle . They add 13.5 percent . add more for delivery , no. plates , etc etc , and then for reasons unknown to anyone else , they divide the whole lot by 86.5 . In essence , charging the VRT twice .

I'm only a spannermonkey , so if I seem evasive or uncertain , it's because I don't know . I do know however that the lack of new MHs being sold is hurting the industry , and will make finding nice s/h ones in a few years bloody impossible .

Del2005

Aidan_M_M wrote: »

Yes , we are at the whim and mercy of the Revenue/VRO . That said , there's feck all being imported , the prices abroad and in the UK are gone through the roof .

Not alone do we not know the VRT , the system is not consistent . Every MH registered is viewed by the VRO independently , data from one registered being of Make X , model Y and level of equipment Z , will NOT be used the next time an XYZ is presented for registration .

For instance , we sold a new factory built Van , of the standard Adria Twin layout . Not quite a month later we sold another one . Identical . I mean literally the same , same chassis , layout equipment level , even the feckin colour was the same (not white btw) . The VRO came back looking for the guts of E1200 MORE for the second one! And there was no explanation why . Currency hadn't changed , nor any taxation rates .

I know in the car world people have successfully challenged the OMSP using other cars of similar spec and mileage. Have any MH owners succeeded? As the 2nd buyer could use the 1st buyer for their appeal.

Irishgoatman

Del2005 wrote: »

I know in the car world people have successfully challenged the OMSP using other cars of similar spec and mileage. Have any MH owners succeeded? As the 2nd buyer could use the 1st buyer for their appeal.

Yes I have. The guy I dealt with in Castlebar when I was registering the camper said that everyone, in his opinion, should appeal on principal. Along with my appeal I included print-outs from ebay & adverts.ie showing what I could have bought with the amount they were valueing my camper at. I also made sure that every print-out was of a vehicle that had bids in play and I also included ones of a similar standard to mine. It worked and I got a reduction of, if my memory serves me right and without going through the paper work, around 21%.

Which made me one happy camper:D.

Irishgoatman

Del2005 wrote: »

I know in the car world people have successfully challenged the OMSP using other cars of similar spec and mileage. Have any MH owners succeeded? As the 2nd buyer could use the 1st buyer for their appeal.

Forgot to answer your last sentence.
VRT is only paid once, if I sell my camper the buyer would not have to pay it again.

Del2005

Irishgoatman wrote: »

Forgot to answer your last sentence.
VRT is only paid once, if I sell my camper the buyer would not have to pay it again.

I was revering to the 2nd person who bought of Aidan. Person A pays X for VRT, person B pays X+Y for VRT for exact same vehicle. Person B appeals using person A as their reason for appeal.

Irishgoatman

Del2005 wrote: »

I was revering to the 2nd person who bought of Aidan. Person A pays X for VRT, person B pays X+Y for VRT for exact same vehicle. Person B appeals using person A as their reason for appeal.

Never having bought a second hand vehicle in this country perhaps I'm missing something.

Vehicle Registration Tax (VRT) is paid by the first buyer surely? once the vehicle is registered here no further VRT can be due.

CJhaughey

Irishgoatman wrote: »

Forgot to answer your last sentence.
VRT is only paid once, if I sell my camper the buyer would not have to pay it again.

Correct, however the VRT is now built into the price of the camper.
The problem is that campers are not assessed by a statistical code like cars, they are individually assessed by an office of the RC in Rosslare and the VRT figure is variable to say the least.
One club claims to have input into the VRT process which I find unusual to say the least.
It seems that a lack of organisation on behalf of the campervan industry has hampered effective lobbying for the reform of this process.
That said perhaps hoteliers within local or national govt have pushed for this to try and kill camping as they see it as a threat?

Del2005

Irishgoatman wrote: »

Never having bought a second hand vehicle in this country perhaps I'm missing something.

Vehicle Registration Tax (VRT) is paid by the first buyer surely? once the vehicle is registered here no further VRT can be due.

There where 2 identical campers sold. The VRT on the 2nd was a lot more than the 1st. The 2nd buyer should appeal the OMSP that they got using the 1st van sold as evidence of their OMSP being too much.

Aidan_M_M

In that case, it's us, the dealer paying the VRT.

Irishgoatman

Del2005 wrote: »

There where 2 identical campers sold. The VRT on the 2nd was a lot more than the 1st. The 2nd buyer should appeal the OMSP that they got using the 1st van sold as evidence of their OMSP being too much.

Aha, I'm with you now. Didn't realise that you meant 2 seperate vehicles.

Irishgoatman

I've received an email, timed at 11:23 today telling me that Killalanerr has just posted on this thread. Can anyone see it? I can't.

Del2005

Aidan_M_M wrote: »

In that case, it's us, the dealer paying the VRT.

So you took the €1200 hit? Ouch..

I assume you agreed a price for the van and when you went to register it the VRT was increased. Very good customer service, can't see it being sustainable, to absorb the VRT.

Aidan_M_M

Del2005 wrote: »

So you took the €1200 hit? Ouch..

I assume you agreed a price for the van and when you went to register it the VRT was increased. Very good customer service, can't see it being sustainable, to absorb the VRT.

We hadn't much choice!