Liveline Thread 27/03/14 to date

cream_cracker

RayM wrote: »

He was talking to an imbecile. It's difficult not to sound patronising when you're talking to an imbecile. He raised some very good points. It would have been great to have heard him arguing with Brenda Power.

are you refering to the caller from galway who engage in a little game about accents and how the lady on the other end was displaying prejudice by claiming to be able to recognise a traveller accent

like i said , theese people are happy to play the " indistinguishable " card when it suits them

CarrickMcJoe

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Hospital rules go out the window when travellers are around. Hospital staff are afraid to say boo to them.

Was a patient in hospital and a traveller in the same ward had cut tendons in his hand having put it through a car window.
No beds available in St. James so for days he was waiting. His mates used to come in and sleep in the empty bed next to his
He tackled the surgeon as she went past on her rounds. Told her it was her job to get him into St James.
She turned round, looked him straight in the eye and said, "I will not put anybody out of a bed for you!" And walked off.

RayM

Rochelle wrote: »

So no kids in front seats of vans, no kids out on the roads in pony-and-traps?

Fair play to them, they must be the only ones in Ireland that don't flout those laws (which the guards turn a blind eye to).

There weren't any pony-and-traps. I've been known to flout the odd road traffic law myself, so I'm not really in a position to judge them on that particular score. They didn't seem to have internet access, so I'm quite certain that they didn't engage in illegal downloading. Although I'm pretty sure I saw one of them jay-walking once.

The bastards.

AK333

RayM wrote: »

He was talking to an imbecile. It's difficult not to sound patronising when you're talking to an imbecile. He raised some very good points. It would have been great to have heard him arguing with Brenda Power.

He was not talking to an imbecile - regardless of how we all here slag off Joe Duffy, he had no right to speak to speak like that. That lady was giving her opinion, we live in a democracy and she's allowed an opinion, regardless of whether you agree with it or not AND I'm not an imbecile, I was listening to him and the earlier shouting down of the man from PP, you can make a point without pontificating and being obnoxious and without the use of a baseball bat.

RayM

cream_cracker wrote: »

breda power is a fine journalist , just because she,s not a liberal like the vast majority of them , shes treated like a pariah , her article was long over due

Her article was littered with sweeping generalisations about the travelling community. She's not a fine journalist.

AK333 wrote: »

He was not talking to an imbecile - regardless of how we all here slag off Joe Duffy, he had no right to speak to speak like that. That lady was giving her opinion, we live in a democracy and she's allowed an opinion, regardless of whether you agree with it or not AND I'm not an imbecile, I was listening to him and the earlier shouting down of the man from PP, you can make a point without pontificating and being obnoxious and without the use of a baseball bat.

To me, she came across as a total idiot who hadn't given any thought to what she was going to say on national radio.

cream_cracker

RayM wrote: »

Her article was littered with sweeping generalisations about the travelling community. She's not a fine journalist.



To me, she came across as a total idiot who hadn't given any thought to what she was going to say on national radio.

as opposed to the nephew of the pecker dunne ( as he was introduced by joe ) who summarised the attack on john joe nevin as follows

" ah sure every family have their little fights "


powers article detailed extremly common activities in the travelling community , you might feel smug by choosing to ignore theese dysfunctionalities and many of your ilk like in the equality authroity have the neck to make a living potraying the reporting of traveller anti social behaviour as wrong and racist etc

Janedoe10

When will this episode show up on podcast ?

Dan Jaman

I know I wanted a change in LL, but a whole fecking hour (anna quarter) about pikeys fighting - that's goolocks, that is.
Bastards on both sides, it must be said.

milewidehead

Q. If a white Irish person calls another white Irish person out for their outrageous, anti-social, and downright savage behaviour, how is that racist?.

A. If the person highlighting the behaviour is from the "settled" community and the perpetrators of same are "travellers".

lindascribbler

has anyone got link to Brenda Power daily mail article? I trawled mail website but couldn't find it. Maybe someone might be kind enough to post it up so I can read for myself what all the fuss is about

Nody

milewidehead wrote: »

Q. If a white Irish person calls another white Irish person out for their outrageous, anti-social, and downright savage behaviour, how is that racist?.

A. If the person highlighting the behaviour is from the "settled" community and the perpetratiors of same are "travellers".

It's racism if you assign a group a certain attribute and say most/everyone from the group has it or because John is from the group he clearly will have the attribute as well. If you on the other hand say John has the attribute because he did X, Y, Z and don't talk about the group as whole it's not racism. The problem most people have is that they have limited interaction with a small sub set of any given group and assign that behaviour to the whole group based on their experience in daily discusion.

As an example. All travellers are thieves = racism. Travellers are over represented in jail (with suitable data to back this up not being a fluke incident) is not racism as long as you don't take it another step and claim that they are thieves because of it. Now some people will claim that the second example is racism as well (and it may be on another level in terms of judges putting more in jail along the lines of the discussion of non white americans in USA) but the claim on it's own is not racist as it's simply stating a fact that can be backed up. The problem is the grey area between the two and people on both side trying to redraw the line in their favour during arguments.

RayM

milewidehead wrote: »

Q. If a white Irish person calls another white Irish person out for their outrageous, anti-social, and downright savage behaviour, how is that racist?.

A. If the person highlighting the behaviour is from the "settled" community and the perpetratiors of same are "travellers".

To call a person out on their outrageous, anti-social and downright savage behaviour is not racist. To call an entire group of people out (a group that fulfills the essential characteristics of distinct ethnicity - and ethnicity is not all about skin colour) because of the behaviour of some people, who happen to be members of that group, is racist.

If Brenda Power had made that distinction, rather than smearing all members of the travelling community, people wouldn't be accusing her of being a racist.

hotmail.com

Brenda Power has become the Irish version of Katie Hopkins - making money off trolling. Her articles are often filled with hate and this article was no different.

If there was a march against Travellers tomorrow, 100,000 people would show up. March against bankers, em well maybe 2,000.

milewidehead

RayM wrote: »

To call a person out on their outrageous, anti-social and downright savage behaviour is not racist. To call an entire group of people out (a group that fulfills the essential characteristics of distinct ethnicity - and ethnicity is not all about skin colour) because of the behaviour of some people, who happen to be members of that group, is racist.

If Brenda Power had made that distinction, rather than smearing all members of the travelling community, people wouldn't be accusing her of being a racist.

I d'ont really buy that argument. I d'ont recall Brenda Power, (no friend of mine), including every single member of the "travelling community" in her admittedly provocative argument.

In any case I was objecting to the over-use and mis-use of the term"racism".
Martin Collins of paveepoint c'ant get two sentences out without using the "R" word. It weakens his arguments, in my opinion. Discrimination, yes. Racism, hardly.

RayM

milewidehead wrote: »

I d'ont really buy that argument. I d'ont recall Brenda Power, (no friend of mine), including every single member of the "travelling community" in her admittedly provocative argument.

In any case I was objecting to the over-use and mis-use of the term"racism".
Martin Collins of paveepoint c'ant get two sentences out without using the "R" word. It weakens his arguments, in my opinion. Discrimination, yes. Racism, hardly.

Whether you believe it's racism or not depends on whether you believe that travellers constitute a distinct ethnic group. As I said in my previous post, they fulfill the basic characteristics of ethnicity - something which is officially recognised in other countries, but not in Ireland.

The only way you could legitimately say that the following words aren't racist, is if you deny that travellers are a distinct ethnic group.

"And the media is terrified of appearing critical of 'Traveller Culture', of which feuding is the principle expression these days."

"When they're not beating their own cousins in family rows, they'll also turn their hands to torturing and murdering old folk, and causing mayhem in school playgrounds as they set about one another with lethal weapons."

And if, like Brenda Power, you deny that they are a distinct ethnic group, ask yourself why? Is it because you disagree with the standard accepted definition of an 'ethnic group' - believing instead (and let's make no bones about this, quite wrongly) that ethnicity is solely about skin colour and nationality? Or is it because, like Brenda Power, you believe it would confer 'extra rights' upon them - namely the right not to be subjected to the sort of remarks that she is currently free to make in the Daily Mail?

cream_cracker

hotmail.com wrote: »

Brenda Power has become the Irish version of Katie Hopkins - making money off trolling. Her articles are often filled with hate and this article was no different.

If there was a march against Travellers tomorrow, 100,000 people would show up. March against bankers, em well maybe 2,000.

if a journalist ( they do it all the time ) or politican were to generalise about bankers , their wouldnt be a pip out of anyone

its ok to generalise as long as its not about a so called ethinc group

Hitchens

This thread is veering away from it's purpose

cream_cracker

RayM wrote: »

Whether you believe it's racism or not depends on whether you believe that travellers constitute a distinct ethnic group. As I said in my previous post, they fulfill the basic characteristics of ethnicity - something which is officially recognised in other countries, but not in Ireland.

The only way you could legitimately say that the following words aren't racist, is if you deny that travellers are a distinct ethnic group.

"And the media is terrified of appearing critical of 'Traveller Culture', of which feuding is the principle expression these days."

"When they're not beating their own cousins in family rows, they'll also turn their hands to torturing and murdering old folk, and causing mayhem in school playgrounds as they set about one another with lethal weapons."

And if, like Brenda Power, you deny that they are a distinct ethnic group, ask yourself why? Is it because you disagree with the standard accepted definition of an 'ethnic group' - believing instead (and let's make no bones about this, quite wrongly) that ethnicity is solely about skin colour and nationality? Or is it because, like Brenda Power, you believe it would confer 'extra rights' upon them - namely the right not to be subjected to the sort of remarks that she is currently free to make in the Daily Mail?

i believe that the kind of folk who granted travellers a distinct ethinc identity are the cut from the same cloth as the so called equality authority

i couldnt give a fig for the opinion of these people , they represent no one but ivory tower do gooders like themselves , they are unelected busy bodies , salary drawing frauds who dishonestly claim moral supreriority


and even travellers were in the main black and muslim , their is a chronic level of criminality and anti social activity within that community so the race thing is a red herring , power was no doubt inspired to write about this due to the very silent reporting of the beating of john joe nevin by other travellers

what we are witnessing now with brenda power is an attempt to completley gag journalists when it comes to travellers

the likes of the equality authority are an enemy of free speech

Nody

Hitchens wrote: »

This thread is veering away from it's purpose

Correct and I helped drive it in that direction. Lets hope tomorrow is a less heated topic .

//MOD
While the topic of racism and travellers is a very important one lets try to limit the discussion going forward to the show itself and limit the turn off topic.
//MOD

P. Breathnach

cream_cracker wrote: »

... their is a chronic level of criminality and anti social activity within that community...

That might be true, but it does not justify condemning all of the community.

I have encountered travellers (on the road. settled, and part-settled) that seem to me to be law-abiding and not at all anti-social. It is unfair that they be tarred with the same brush that is applied to other travellers whose behaviour is less worthy. Not only is it unfair: it is counter-productive, because the properly-behaved travellers are not given a chance to prove themselves good citizens and good neighbours.

cream_cracker

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That might be true, but it does not justify condemning all of the community.

I have encountered travellers (on the road. settled, and part-settled) that seem to me to be law-abiding and not at all anti-social. It is unfair that they be tarred with the same brush that is applied to other travellers whose behaviour is less worthy. Not only is it unfair: it is counter-productive, because the properly-behaved travellers are not given a chance to prove themselves good citizens and good neighbours.

well it sounds like you can afford to be philosophical , those who experienced things at the coalface with travellers are less enthusiastic about the claim that its only a handful who tarnish the communitys reputation

way i see it , its travellers who have a lot of making up to do , not the rest of us

eventually people will get sick of the arrogance of the PC liberals who claim rightousness on this issue

vicwatson

Nody wrote: »

Correct and I helped drive it in that direction. Lets hope tomorrow is a less heated topic .

//MOD
While the topic of racism and travellers is a very important one lets try to limit the discussion going forward to the show itself and limit the turn off topic.
//MOD

Hope you gave yourself a warning Nody

Dan Jaman

cream_cracker wrote: »

well it sounds like you can afford to be philosophical , those who experienced things at the coalface with travellers are less enthusiastic about the claim that its only a handful who tarnish the communitys reputation

way i see it , its travellers who have a lot of making up to do , not the rest of us

eventually people will get sick of the arrogance of the PC liberals who claim rightousness on this issue

Hey, I ain't no cream-puff PC up-myself lefty liberal - take that back you swine! [1]
I believe in calling a cunard a cunard, and I don't care if he/she/it is a liner or not. It makes no difference to me what shipyard they come from - it's what they do /act like /behave that counts.

[1] I sometimes have real trouble keeping my inner Nazi under control - it would give you the heebies if you knew my real opinions in the deep dark hours, sometimes.

cream_cracker

Dan Jaman wrote: »

Hey, I ain't no cream-puff PC up-myself lefty liberal - take that back you swine! [1]
I believe in calling a cunard a cunard, and I don't care if he/she/it is a liner or not. It makes no difference to me what shipyard they come from - it's what they do /act like /behave that counts.

[1] I sometimes have real trouble keeping my inner Nazi under control - it would give you the heebies if you knew my real opinions in the deep dark hours, sometimes.

my post quoted breathnach

Dan Jaman

cream_cracker wrote: »

my post quoted breathnach

Fair enough. I don't mean that in a racist way, of course.

Nody

vicwatson wrote: »

Hope you gave yourself a warning Nody

Two slaps over the head and early to bed!

goose2005

ThisRegard wrote: »

Every family have little fights. Understatement right there.

Yeah I can remember when my cousin forget to send my mam a thank you card after she sent a gift to the newborn. When we visited them at Christmas my mam was slightly cold to my cousin and didn't help her with the tea. So basically the same as a slash-hook and baseball bat riot with broken legs.

goose2005

Nody wrote: »

It's racism if you assign a group a certain attribute and say most/everyone from the group has it or because John is from the group he clearly will have the attribute as well. If you on the other hand say John has the attribute because he did X, Y, Z and don't talk about the group as whole it's not racism. The problem most people have is that they have limited interaction with a small sub set of any given group and assign that behaviour to the whole group based on their experience in daily discusion.

As an example. All travellers are thieves = racism. Travellers are over represented in jail (with suitable data to back this up not being a fluke incident) is not racism as long as you don't take it another step and claim that they are thieves because of it. Now some people will claim that the second example is racism as well (and it may be on another level in terms of judges putting more in jail along the lines of the discussion of non white americans in USA) but the claim on it's own is not racist as it's simply stating a fact that can be backed up. The problem is the grey area between the two and people on both side trying to redraw the line in their favour during arguments.

But travellers aren't a race. You could make similar comments about people who live on council estates in poor parts of Dublin. It wouldn't be racist, but it would be failing to take account of the economic and social situation.

P. Breathnach

cream_cracker wrote: »

well it sounds like you can afford to be philosophical , those who experienced things at the coalface with travellers are less enthusiastic about the claim that its only a handful who tarnish the communitys reputation

way i see it , its travellers who have a lot of making up to do , not the rest of us

eventually people will get sick of the arrogance of the PC liberals who claim rightousness on this issue

I think I am being accused of being a PC liberal. That's okay by me. I think cream_cracker sees it as a put-down. That's a mistaken view.

I never suggested that it was only a handful who tarnish the community's reputation; I didn't even challenge cream_cracker's claim that "their is a chronic level of criminality and anti social activity within that community"; I let that go, because numbers have nothing to do with the point I am making. So long as there are good people in the traveller community, whether it be 90% of them, or 50%, or 10%, it is unfair on those people to condemn travellers as a group, because you condemn the good along with the less good and the out-and-out bad.

milewidehead

Want to place a small wager as to what the L-L will be about to-day? And possibly tomorrow?.
(Until Uncle Joe gets the throat-slash sign from the "roight-on" P.C. liberal agenda producers in the R.T.E.).

It's no accident, or coincidence, that the majority of callers to any radio station on the subject of Travellers usually have a distinctly negative bias. Prejudice is often formed from experience, and bitter experiences with Travellers seem to be the norm, at least from the "settled" community's point of view.

Nody

milewidehead wrote: »

Want to place a small wager as to what the L-L will be about to-day? And possibly tomorrow?.

Not really up for the wager as I know the topic is heated to say the least and tend to die down very slowly. I'll have the dubious pleasure of trying to mod one of the fastest moving threads on the forum at the time; I also understand the general outrage (and I've seen my fair share of both sides of the coin in terms of behaviour) but that does not change the policy or what I need to do though.

All I ask is for people to keep the charter in mind and report what ever they think is against the charter and I'll have a look at it directly while going through the thread as fast as reasonble possible to snip things as well . Oh and when I do make a mistake (I had a few yesterday already;you know who you are ) don't hesitate to tell me why you disagree / think I was wrong via PM. I don't guarantee I'll change my oppinion on your post but I'm far from perfect and I WILL make wrong calls.

ThisRegard

hotmail.com wrote: »

Brenda Power has become the Irish version of Katie Hopkins - making money off trolling. Her articles are often filled with hate and this article was no different.

If there was a march against Travellers tomorrow, 100,000 people would show up. March against bankers, em well maybe 2,000.

You're wildly over estimating the power and influence of such articles.

And I don't think your comparison is valid, Hopkins is wildly derided and made fun of for her views, I think Power would have a majority of people agreeing with what she said, basing on what I see in the various social media sites and comments section in more established newspapers

RayM wrote: »

And if, like Brenda Power, you deny that they are a distinct ethnic group, ask yourself why?

Brenda Power is not denying they're a distinct ethnic group, the state are.

CountyHurler

Why do publicans not want Travellers on their premises?
Is it because a) they are racist or b) because they are afraid of the trouble and damage being caused to their premises.

Why do hotels not want to host Traveller weddings (even though they are most likely to be paid in cash) ?
Is it a) because they are racist or b) are they worried about their premises being damaged.

And why do people get nervous when Travellers pull up illegally near where they live.
Is it a) because they are racist or b) because they are pretty confident that the crime rate is about to rise, and that the area occupied will be left in a mess.

Irish people in general will give people a fair chance. For example, there is a Traveller family that pull up (albeit illegally) near the motorway junction close to where I am living. They dont bother anybody, and they keep the area clean. The local people dont hugely care that they are parked illegally because they dont bother people. If all Travellers behaved as they do, there would be no issue. But they dont.

People have just been bitten one too many times by Travellers, and are pretty sick of listening to their representatives playing the poor mouth in TV3 documentaries, The Vincent Brown Show, Global Village etc etc and failing to acknowledge that the reason people have a problem with them is because of their behaviour, not because of their ethnic origin.

hullaballoo

Moderator: there has been absolutely no attempt to stick to Nody's warning about.

This is the final warning - we are going back on topic or cards will result.

Edit: there has been one attempt, acknowledged.

CountyHurler

Did anybody go to the mass for the children that died in 1916?

Odyssey 2005

No room in the chapel. Duffys ego filled the place.

neris

CountyHurler wrote: »

Did anybody go to the mass for the children that died in 1916?

well done well done back on topic

snubbleste

13:46 and no Liveline

Lapin

Plug already !!

DellyBelly

Another traveller section today....

snubbleste

DellyBelly wrote: »

Another traveller section today....

dublin airport?

DellyBelly

No stealing

pc7

Bingo! poor Nody!

snubbleste

Harry Angstrom

Travellers :eek:

Pavee Point man back on Line 2....

Lapin

Fair play to him for coming straight out with it.

None of this certain section of society nonsense.

DellyBelly

Boom!!!! I knew it. When there is a story about a robbery you can guess who it involves...but it's their culture..sigh

risteard7

Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe joe

bigroad

At last a straight talker.

Lapin

Well said caller.