Estate Agent Tactics

harpsman

spaceHopper wrote: »

Read about one ea bragging on a forum, once the bidder calls them they know you are keen. Go to see a lot of houses, let them know that you have finance arranged not in a chain and are ready to close. Go to see several of their properties even ones that are "nice houses but not for me", let them think you are waiting to hear about another house but are still looking till then. When you make an offer try to make it in a Friday afternoon, yours is then the only offer the ea has to communicate to the vendor and they will be thinking about it all weekend. If a better offer is made then don't be in a rush to respond give it a day, you have to talk to the oh, run the numbers....see what any other bidders do the either raise it a small amount to if you feel the house will go for much more take it higher. Do your home work, know what other houses have sold for, what you can afford.... don't be shy about using email most ea's have a smat phone so will see emails while waiting for people to arrive at a viewing os to look around.

Im not sure what part of the country youre in but if its dublin,forget about the parlour tricks,theres plenty of bidders for properties in the right areas so EAs dont need to to play games and they wont take any nonsense from buyers either while the market is so hot(in Dublin). TBH I think yous are all a bit paranoid about EAs-think most of them are fairly decent.

Pat Mustard

harpsman wrote: »

TBH I think yous are all a bit paranoid about EAs-think most of them are fairly decent.

The auctioneer is paid by the seller, not the buyer.

That's just being realistic.

harpsman

The Mustard wrote: »

The auctioneer is paid by the seller, not the buyer.

That's just being realistic.

Yes but there are numerous posts on these forums about EAs sabotaging sales by making up phantom bids-why would the vendor or the EA want to do this? As far as Im aware EAs work on a flat rate % so it doesnt make a huge difference to them if a house sells at 320k or 340k-say there on 1%-why would they jeporadize a sale for an extra couple of hundred and then have to go through the whole rigmarole again?

Pat Mustard

harpsman wrote: »

Yes but there are numerous posts on these forums about EAs sabotaging sales by making up phantom bids-why would the vendor or the EA want to do this? As far as Im aware EAs work on a flat rate % so it doesnt make a huge difference to them if a house sells at 320k or 340k-say there on 1%-why would they jeporadize a sale for an extra couple of hundred and then have to go through the whole rigmarole again?

You are not putting this across accurately.

Auctioneers are not trying to sabotage any sale by lying about phantom bidders

They are trying to achieve the maximum price by lying about phantom bidders.

People are only telling you about the instances in which they walked away from sales, where they got pissed off over phantom bidders.

Nobody is telling you that they strongly suspected that the auctioneer was lying about a phantom bidder, but that they kept bidding and bought the property anyway. This is something that has also happened, because people wanted to buy particular properties.

It is a bit naive to say that auctioneers are decent blokes, tbh. No buyer should trust a man who is paid to take their money. There is no win-win. It's a zero sum game.

Why would an auctioneer fight to get an extra 20k? Well, because it's popular with sellers, that's why. It's good for business.

Ray Palmer

The Mustard wrote: »

They are trying to achieve the maximum price by lying about phantom bidders.

People are only telling you about the instances in which they walked away from sales, where they got pissed off over phantom bidders.

Why would an auctioneer fight to get an extra 20k? Well, because it's popular with sellers, that's why. It's good for business.

Actually no one person has proved a phantom bidder once. So it is more accurate to say people believe there is a phantom bidder so they walk away. A house not selling is not proof BTW

It isn't good for business for them to spend lots of extra time for a very modest increase in income. Sellers don't tend to run around saying how much they got for their property so how it get's them extra business would be very questionable.

Agents operate at the request of the seller. These people have a value in mind so will not sell until they are happy. Does it really matter if they say there is another bidder or they simply say not high enough. You haven't made a successful bid that fact hasn't changed. Supply and demand includes the price people are willing to supply at.

Pat Mustard

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Actually no one person has proved a phantom bidder once. So it is more accurate to say people believe there is a phantom bidder so they walk away. A house not selling is not proof BTW

You are saying that nobody has proved that auctioneers lie about bids? That's not a plausible point. The bidding system is not transparent, so I don't see how people can prove that an estate agent has lied about a bid. I don't agree that people necessarily walk away from a property if they think that there is a phantom bidder. I reckon that many of them don't. Maybe they just spend the extra 10 or 20 grand and chalk it down to an unpleasant experience.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

It isn't good for business for them to spend lots of extra time for a very modest increase in income.

During the property boom, when I suspect that this tactic was most widely used, it would have taken little additional effort to create significant extra income.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Sellers don't tend to run around saying how much they got for their property so how it get's them extra business would be very questionable.

I know people who have hired auctioneers/estate agents on the basis of a recommendation concerning ability to achieve good prices for properties. People talk. Sellers talk.

Valentine1

Never ceases to amaze me how people don't seem to understand the relationship between the buyer and the Estate Agent. The Agent works for the Seller, their only job is to get the most amount of money for the property possible. Whats more they must follow the Seller's instructions, it is always the seller who decides to accept or reject an offer.

There are good agents and bad agents but either way what the Estate Agent owes you nothing, not a viewing, not a return phone call not even common courtesy. Believe nothing they say and don't waste your time playing games with them. Decide what the property is worth to you and don't go above it. That way you won't pay more then you can afford and you won't get taken for a ride.

stonemanic

Myself and my wife are looking at buying a house in a commuter town in Cork and put in what we thought was an acceptable offer 3 weeks ago. It wasn't accepted and the auctioneer said that the owner is looking for 10-15k more than our offer. We are first time buyers with full mortgage approval but are wondering what our next step should be? We might be willing to go another 3-5k but are probably not willing to match their asking price.

At this stage should we ask for an engineer to access the house and get their opinion? We haven't hear anything back from the auctioneer, since but wonder if we'll seem desperate if we call him up to see if anything has changed on the sellers valuation. We are not enthused about the negotiation process but feel that at the moment the seller can just use our offer as leverage without actually engaging with us.

Any help/tips appreciated.

Pat Mustard

stonemanic wrote: »

At this stage should we ask for an engineer to access the house and get their opinion?

Normally, the engineering inspection takes place after the bid is accepted, but before signing of contracts. Even if the auctioneer allowed you to carry out the inspection, it might come off as over eager, at this early stage. So, I would suggest that you could hold off on that and save the cost of the engineer for the time being.

I'd recommend going to see other properties, rather than getting stalled on one property where your bid has not been accepted and you are reaching the limit of your budget.

Also, consider looking at new properties, where the price is pretty much set, except for haggling them down.

TheDriver

Valentine1 wrote: »

the Estate Agent owes you nothing, not a viewing, not a return phone call not even common courtesy. .

I would beg to differ. His job is to sell for the seller and to do that, he must undertake customer service and communication. If he only annoys potential buyers, then he is not doing his job to the best of his ability.

TheDriver

stonemanic wrote: »

At this stage should we ask for an engineer to access the house and get their opinion? We .

as with the above poster, it would seem over eager.

I would put in another offer small bit above yours if you really want the house and then park it. Sellers must be willing to deal also. I have been in a few scenarios where the seller kept saying no but there was also no give, no meeting point in the middle etc. Needless to say, the houses are still for sale........

harpsman

stonemanic wrote: »

Myself and my wife are looking at buying a house in a commuter town in Cork and put in what we thought was an acceptable offer 3 weeks ago. It wasn't accepted and the auctioneer said that the owner is looking for 10-15k more than our offer. We are first time buyers with full mortgage approval but are wondering what our next step should be? We might be willing to go another 3-5k but are probably not willing to match their asking price.

At this stage should we ask for an engineer to access the house and get their opinion? We haven't hear anything back from the auctioneer, since but wonder if we'll seem desperate if we call him up to see if anything has changed on the sellers valuation. We are not enthused about the negotiation process but feel that at the moment the seller can just use our offer as leverage without actually engaging with us.

Any help/tips appreciated.

What is the asking price relative to your offer? If you re willing to go another 3-5k and you want the house then offer another 5k and leave it at that.
There seem to be alot of buyers-not talking about you here- out there(I know a few of them personally) who seem to think that because they want a house at a certain price they should be sold the house at that price and if they dont get their way its down to evil estate agents/banks up to all sorts of machevellian tricks and lies.
Face it, the markets hot at the moment in some areas and if your house is in one of those areas the seller wont be coming down to your valuation.

Valentine1

TheDriver wrote: »

I would beg to differ. His job is to sell for the seller and to do that, he must undertake customer service and communication. If he only annoys potential buyers, then he is not doing his job to the best of his ability.

I'd consider that being a good agent but my point is that the agent's duty is to the Seller, once he get the house sold his job is done.

TheDriver wrote: »

as with the above poster, it would seem over eager.

I would put in another offer small bit above yours if you really want the house and then park it. Sellers must be willing to deal also. I have been in a few scenarios where the seller kept saying no but there was also no give, no meeting point in the middle etc. Needless to say, the houses are still for sale........

Except in certain circumstances the goal of the seller is not to simply sell the house, rather it is to sell the house at a price that is acceptable to them. If they accepted your offer and sold the house below that price they would have failed in their goal.

TheDriver

Valentine1 wrote: »

I'd consider that being a good agent but my point is that the agent's duty is to the Seller, once he get the house sold his job is done.



Except in certain circumstances the goal of the seller is not to simply sell the house, rather it is to sell the house at a price that is acceptable to them. If they accepted your offer and sold the house below that price they would have failed in their goal.

But sometimes a price acceptable to the seller is wayyyy off the mark. Bargains aren't really out there anymore but realistic prices are there in most cases.

Valentine1

TheDriver wrote: »

But sometimes a price acceptable to the seller is wayyyy off the mark. Bargains aren't really out there anymore but realistic prices are there in most cases.

The mark is entirely relative. Most sellers have a figure below which they would rather keep the house, if a buyer can't or won't meet that figure there is no reason for the seller to lower their price.

Ray Palmer

The Mustard wrote: »

You are saying that nobody has proved that auctioneers lie about bids? That's not a plausible point. The bidding system is not transparent, so I don't see how people can prove that an estate agent has lied about a bid. I don't agree that people necessarily walk away from a property if they think that there is a phantom bidder. I reckon that many of them don't. Maybe they just spend the extra 10 or 20 grand and chalk it down to an unpleasant experience.


During the property boom, when I suspect that this tactic was most widely used, it would have taken little additional effort to create significant extra income.


I know people who have hired auctioneers/estate agents on the basis of a recommendation concerning ability to achieve good prices for properties. People talk. Sellers talk.

I don't get this at all. You are saying there is no transparency and therefore no proof but saying it definitely happens. I see that as a problem in logic, you can't possibly know and you have said you don't but are also saying it happens because????

As we are not in a boom it seems highly unlikely they can try it. Again no proof it happened.

Yes people hire on word of mouth but I doubt it is just on price.

Effectively you are saying estate agents are completely oblivious to their business and will risk it for a couple of extra €100s. It just doesn't make business sense.

I see why you think it happens but simply reject it because it doesn't make financial sense nor have you any proof. Provide proof and maybe it will be believable otherwise it is just wild speculation.

Pat Mustard

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Effectively you are saying estate agents are completely oblivious to their business and will risk it for a couple of extra €100s. It just doesn't make business sense.

This is a blatant strawman argument. I've never argued this.

If you say that auctioneers don't lie because I have no proof to show you otherwise, then you can believe what you like.

Ray Palmer

The Mustard wrote: »

This is a blatant strawman argument. I've never argued this.

If you say that auctioneers don't lie because I have no proof to show you otherwise, then you can believe what you like.

No I am asking you to tell me why you are so sure it happens.

People have claimed many things on this thread with most of them being unbelievable as they fly in the face of logic.

It isn't a straw man argument. I stated why they wouldn't do something and you refuted this giving no proof and stated it does happen. I never changed the point. You said they do a number of things after I said they wouldn't because it doesn't make business sense. So maybe go look up straw man.

It doesn't go for you anybody making claims on EA I would love to hear how you know they use these tactics. It sounds like hearsay and speculation, mostly made up in the persons mind on the belief there is a financial gain worthy of doing this but when you look at the figures you see there really is no need and it risks normal revenue.

I don't trust EAs but I don't think they are going to really kill themselves for such minor amounts of money to them.

Pat Mustard

Go and look up 'strawman' yourself.

I never tried to argue that estate agents would jeopardise sales over 100s of Euro. You argued against a point that nobody made. You put up a strawman to knock it down, in order to make your argument look more plausible.

Then you got called on it, denied it, and now you are saying something else.

The_Morrigan

Folks can you please get back on topic.

Thanks

The Megaphone

Woodville56 wrote: »

Alternatively if you could find out the name of the vendor and approach them directly ??

Has anyone ever done this?

Im interested in purchasing a distressed property and the EA is messing us around with the usual bullsh*t tictacs - been telling us fantastic lies about 'high level board meetings in the bank' and conveniently timed potential phantom bidders - all in effort to squeeze a few more schillings out of us.

Anyway we are not playing ball, have dug our hells and are prepared to play the waiting game but in the meantime we have found out the name of the bank in question (through viewing the Folio on the Land Registry website) and would like to approach the bank directly with our offer - has anyone ever done this?

Ray Palmer

The Mustard wrote: »

Go and look up 'strawman' yourself.

I never tried to argue that estate agents would jeopardise sales over 100s of Euro. You argued against a point that nobody made. You put up a strawman to knock it down, in order to make your argument look more plausible.

Then you got called on it, denied it, and now you are saying something else.

I didn't say he would jeopardise a sale over a few €100s. I am saying they won't jeopardise the sale for a few €100s for themselves. It isn't worth their effort as a cost benefit return.

You have said they create phantom bidders to push up the price, which is a benefit to the EA of a few €100s. That is what you have claimed. That is your point. I am pointing out what your claim makes a case for, not made up another point. I stated it from the start which you responded to. NOT A STRAW MAN as I didn't change what I said. I refuted your response and still do.

On top of that you claimed it would get the more business, which I don't believe it would.

So do you have any tactics that you actually know about or not?

Valentine1

The Megaphone wrote: »

Has anyone ever done this?

Im interested in purchasing a distressed property and the EA is messing us around with the usual bullsh*t tictacs - been telling us fantastic lies about 'high level board meetings in the bank' and conveniently timed potential phantom bidders - all in effort to squeeze a few more schillings out of us.

Anyway we are not playing ball, have dug our hells and are prepared to play the waiting game but in the meantime we have found out the name of the bank in question (through viewing the Folio on the Land Registry website) and would like to approach the bank directly with our offer - has anyone ever done this?

My experience is that the bank will refuse to discuss any property and will direct you to the Agent, the reason they hired the EA is because they do not want to deal with buyers directly. Banks aee not in the business of selling properties so it make sense for them to appoint an agent who is and make them the point of contact. Still can't do any harm to try.

Pat Mustard

Independent newspaper article on Prime Time Investigates tv report on auctioneers, mortgage brokers, and phantom bidders:
Link

An undercover reporter also heard [see article for details] inventing a fictitious bid of €575,000 on a house, the asking price of which was €570,000. He later admitted that nobody had been interested in the property when he told a prospective purchaser about the supposed bid.

'Prime Time' also heard from two whistleblowers from within the industry who said that in private treaties artificial inflation of prices could push the cost of a home up by 10 to 15pc, while at auctions "the sky's the limit".

Carol Tallon, author of the recently published Irish Property Buyers Handbook 2011 and Managing Director of Buyers Broker Ltd, writes:
Link

False bidding is a practice that is still prevalent in the industry and buyers have a real fear of this; however, there are measures that buyers can take to ensure that they are not bidding against themselves.

Also

While every auctioneer will deny the practice of what is commonly referred to as dummy bids or ‘taking bids from the wall’, anecdotally, it used to be very prevalent. It would be naive not to acknowledge its existence at this stage and buyers are urged to be observant and pay attention to other bidders, in particular, to the first bidder.

A comparison of the Irish and Scottish property purchase/sale system referred to the increased prevalence of phantom bidding in Ireland:
Link

ghost bids and phantom buyers are a much rarer occurrence under the Scottish system. If a property is being sold under the ‘offers over’ system, purchasers are engaged in a blind bid process, unaware of what other bids may have been offered. As such, ‘ghost bids’ would arguably have little impact on a sealed bid process. In comparison, under the Irish system of open bidding, ‘ghost bids’ and phantom buyers can be used by unscrupulous sellers and estate agents to push up the final sale price of a property.

A slightly different slant on phantom bidding in Australia, where an auctioneer patently bid on the property that he was trying to sell, which drove up the price. Apparently what he did was not illegal in that instance. Following criticism for this behaviour, he brought an action for defamation, which was dismissed. The magistrate had this to say about the practice:

Last week, Melbourne magistrate Colin Maclead, who dismissed the defamation claim, said that ``pulling bids out of the air ... in my view, amounts to a fraud," The Age newspaper reported. "I find that Mr Fletcher, in using what on evidence, sadly, is a common practice, was indulging in a deceitful, misleading and fraudulent stratagem to boost bids.’’

Law relating to phantom bids in Queensland, Australia.
Link:

It is illegal for auctioneers to engage in dummy bidding or take false bids once the property is on the market. Any bid where there is no genuine bidder is a false bid.

Phantom bidder story in South Africa.
Link

Dairopoulos stated that they spoke about the Pinehaven property and the auction and that Kleynhans asked him to attend the auction to help achieve a higher price by bidding against others. “I told him I wasn’t comfortable with this and I would probably make a mess of things as I knew nothing about ghost bidding,” said Dairopoulos. “He assured me there was nothing to worry about as he would be standing next to me and would be guiding me all the way.” Dairopoulos claims to have questioned whether it was within the confines of the law and claims that he was assured by Kleynhans that it was not wrong to be a ghost bidder. Dairopoulos further stated that Kleynhans assured him that the property sale would not be confirmed should the hammer fall on his bid. According to Dairopoulos, Kleynhans was certain that Netcare would pay the elevated price for the Pinehaven site and that Dairopoulos would receive a percentage of the proceeds of the sale. In his statement, Dairopoulos said: “I never thought or had the slightest belief that a ‘penniless’ person like me could walk into an auction venue and buy a multi-million property.”

twogunkid

I would appreciate some feedback on my issue.
I viewed a house in a country town and placed a bid in excess of the advertised asking price as there were other bidders involved.
I am now 2k over the advertised price.
The EA has come back and advised me of the other bid and I am invited to better it if I want the house.
He states his duty is to the vendor--his client- and I can appreciate this.
I believe he has duty to me also to be professional and transparent.
I contend that his ad
A) States a price for the property and he should sell at this price
He should not state a price that he is unable to close the deal on.
C) He has a duty to ensure his ad conforms to advertising standards/code

I have sold property before and am not naïve but I expect transparency and plain English ---stuff I understand in any business dealings.
Am I asking too much of estate agent ---do I have any comeback here ?
Any advice appreciated

chopper6

Had an estate agent hang up on my GF after she had teh temerity to ask for a 100 pm reduction on a property she was looking to rent.

That was three months ago and the place is still untenanted.

That particular estate agent has a reputation for being rude and unhelpfull so i can see myself wasting quite a bit of her time in the future.:P

Pat Mustard

@twogunkid

I assume that you are not Irish. In Ireland, property buyers do not trust estate agents. If you are buying property, you need to have a solicitor and you can listen to him/her.

runawaybishop

twogunkid wrote: »

I would appreciate some feedback on my issue.
I viewed a house in a country town and placed a bid in excess of the advertised asking price as there were other bidders involved.
I am now 2k over the advertised price.
The EA has come back and advised me of the other bid and I am invited to better it if I want the house.
He states his duty is to the vendor--his client- and I can appreciate this.
I believe he has duty to me also to be professional and transparent.
I contend that his ad
A) States a price for the property and he should sell at this price
He should not state a price that he is unable to close the deal on.
C) He has a duty to ensure his ad conforms to advertising standards/code

I have sold property before and am not naïve but I expect transparency and plain English ---stuff I understand in any business dealings.
Am I asking too much of estate agent ---do I have any comeback here ?
Any advice appreciated

No, he has no duty to you at all. His duty is solely to his client and it is to get the best price for the house, within the law of course. Stating a price in an advertisement is not a binding contract.

TheDriver

and more so, you will see sales fall through or the seller won't accept anything reasonable or in my case even the asking price yet the ad remains up and house unsold......

BeatNikDub

twogunkid wrote: »

I would appreciate some feedback on my issue.
I viewed a house in a country town and placed a bid in excess of the advertised asking price as there were other bidders involved.
I am now 2k over the advertised price.
The EA has come back and advised me of the other bid and I am invited to better it if I want the house.
He states his duty is to the vendor--his client- and I can appreciate this.
I believe he has duty to me also to be professional and transparent.
I contend that his ad
A) States a price for the property and he should sell at this price
He should not state a price that he is unable to close the deal on.
C) He has a duty to ensure his ad conforms to advertising standards/code

I have sold property before and am not naïve but I expect transparency and plain English ---stuff I understand in any business dealings.
Am I asking too much of estate agent ---do I have any comeback here ?
Any advice appreciated

Again, I assume you are not Irish as the sale is not automatically agreed once the property hits the asking price.
The market sets the price in the end. If people continue to bid then the EA will continue to accept these until the bidding finishes or goes to best and final offers. They are acting for the vendor to get them the best price they can.