Weak Hamstrings & the Back Squat

Turbo_diesel

If you have weak hamstrings & it's a limiting factor in the back squat would you just hammer the **** out of them with Good Mornings, stiff legged Deads & RDL's. What's everyone's opinion on box squats for bringing up hamstrings? Does it just get you good at squatting on a box as in there is no carryover into the raw squat? What's everyone's opinion on GHR's? Are they any better to bring up hamstrings than good mornings or stiff legged Deads?

generic2012

I would probably widen my stance, breaking depth with a wide squat brings in the hamstrings and glutes more, so you'd get the benefit of strengthening the hamstrings while keeping the movement pattern (I doubt you will have to lighten the load as it's usually easier to move more weight with a wider stance). That's just me though, I couldn't implement good mornings, stiff legged and romanian deadlifts without hampering some of my other lifts because of the way I'm training at the minute. Those are also straight legged hamstring exercises which will help your hamstrings but not necessarily strengthen them in the position where they kick in for the squat. The point of peak contraction of the hamstring during the exercises you've mentioned is when it is fully elongated, where as you want it to be stronger in the contracted position (bottom of the squat when your knee is bent).

That probably wasn't much use to you as I've only said why those options mightn't be the best but haven't given the best but I would probably squat with the intention of bringing in the hamstrings more or at least use sumo squats as a sort of accessory lift. I'm open to correction/expansion on those points by the boys here that know more though...

I'm in the opposite boat as my hamstrings are too dominant. I used to do wide stance squats which was initiated with the hamstrings and glutes but the momentum through the point where the quads come in to play gave my quads too easy of ride. This was exacerbated by my love of deadlifts and lack of quad work. As I started upping the weight on my squats they were turning very good morning-ish which I've read can be caused by weak quads. I'm gone to olympic style squatting now, which I'm starting to prefer.

Alf Veedersane

RDLs and good mornings are good for working the hamstrings.

You could also back off on the weight of your squat and concentrate on depth. The deeper you go, the more your hamstrings are worked.

Unless you have someone to make sure your form is good, I'd skip the box squat. I'm no expert but I've seen a few try to box squat and I don't know what they wanted to achieve with the rocking on the box, leaning too far forward etc etc.

papu

Spend some time in the position you're weakest in , try some pause squats for example.

kevpants

The problem with RDLs, Good Mornings, Stiff leg deadlifts etc for someone with weak hamstrings is that a person in that position is compensating for those weak hamstrings with another muscle group, most likely he lower back. You probably get quite a bit of lower back pump.

The above exercises can be pretty effectively performed using the lower back muscles whether you mean to use them or not. It's very hard to override well ingrained motor patterns.

The only thing you can do is put the body in the best position to get the most activity in the weaker muscles groups. I've found it pointless "trying" to engage the right muscles using the same exercises or set ups.

As someone who spent the last number years battling against what you're describing I found absolutely nothing compares to the sumo deadlift to not only add mass and strength to the hamstrings and glutes but more importantly to engrain new patterns in how you move weight.

It takes a bit of learning to get the sumo deadlift right, everyone pretty much does a stiff leg sumo at the start because the instinct is to pull rather than push the weight off the floor. This is fine because even in this case it's almost impossible to really engage the lower back muscles. Even doing it wrong the sumo is going to work the muscles you want worked and spare the muscles you want spared.

A MASSIVE thing for someone in this position is to stay away from any lower back work. For the next few years you can presume your lower back is strong enough and given you got into this position in the first place it's pretty safe to assume that your default posture/stance will always favour the lower back over hamstrings so just forget about them despite what Westside or elitefts tells you.

I'd also go out on a limb and say your abdominal muscles are stretched and weak and you'll need to work on them too. Strong hamstrings and strong abdominals don't usually occur in isolation.

Hanley

Why do you think you have weak hamstrings?

Turbo_diesel

kevpants wrote: »

The problem with RDLs, Good Mornings, Stiff leg deadlifts etc for someone with weak hamstrings is that a person in that position is compensating for those weak hamstrings with another muscle group, most likely he lower back. You probably get quite a bit of lower back pump.

The above exercises can be pretty effectively performed using the lower back muscles whether you mean to use them or not. It's very hard to override well ingrained motor patterns.

The only thing you can do is put the body in the best position to get the most activity in the weaker muscles groups. I've found it pointless "trying" to engage the right muscles using the same exercises or set ups.

As someone who spent the last number years battling against what you're describing I found absolutely nothing compares to the sumo deadlift to not only add mass and strength to the hamstrings and glutes but more importantly to engrain new patterns in how you move weight.

It takes a bit of learning to get the sumo deadlift right, everyone pretty much does a stiff leg sumo at the start because the instinct is to pull rather than push the weight off the floor. This is fine because even in this case it's almost impossible to really engage the lower back muscles. Even doing it wrong the sumo is going to work the muscles you want worked and spare the muscles you want spared.

A MASSIVE thing for someone in this position is to stay away from any lower back work. For the next few years you can presume your lower back is strong enough and given you got into this position in the first place it's pretty safe to assume that your default posture/stance will always favour the lower back over hamstrings so just forget about them despite what Westside or elitefts tells you.

I'd also go out on a limb and say your abdominal muscles are stretched and weak and you'll need to work on them too. Strong hamstrings and strong abdominals don't usually occur in isolation.

Great post Kevin thanks for the info

Turbo_diesel

Hanley wrote: »

Why do you think you have weak hamstrings?

My coach told me.

Hanley

Turbo_diesel wrote: »

My coach told me.

...then ask your coach what he recommends?

What's the point having one otherwise!

Turbo_diesel

Hanley wrote: »

...then ask your coach what he recommends?

What's the point having one otherwise!

Agree. He recommends box squats.

davyjose

Glute ham raises are pretty intense on the ol' hamstrings. If you've weak glutes you won't be able to do them, but you can start with an incline and add more weight. I broke my 5rep max on deadlifts on saturday, but only got DOMS after I did G/H raises on Monday.

Wailin

Turbo_diesel wrote: »

Agree. He recommends box squats.

Few weeks old I know but just wondering about your coach recommending box squats for ham strings and glutes. Don't box squats focus more on the quads more so than conventional back squats? By using the box you prevent yourself from going below parallel and therefore keeping the quads engaged throughout the movement and limiting the hamstrings and glutes. Definitely no expert but to me recommending box squats for posterior chain is wrong.

COH

Wailin wrote: »

Few weeks old I know but just wondering about your coach recommending box squats for ham strings and glutes. Don't box squats focus more on the quads more so than conventional back squats? By using the box you prevent yourself from going below parallel and therefore keeping the quads engaged throughout the movement and limiting the hamstrings and glutes. Definitely no expert but to me recommending box squats for posterior chain is wrong.

Lots of factors here, none of which we know like...
- How the OP moves
- the height of the box
- the OP's stance
- OP's foot position
- OP's leverages
- OP's bar placement
- What bar the OP is using
- OP's choice of footwear etc.
- Any additional input from the coach

So really his coaches recommendation could be 110% on the money, completely wide of the mark or anywhere in between. Not all box squats are created equal so your assertion that box = quad = wrong prescription may be correct for a specific person in specific circumstances but definitely not correct for everyone in every circumstance

Hanley

Wailin wrote: »

Few weeks old I know but just wondering about your coach recommending box squats for ham strings and glutes. Don't box squats focus more on the quads more so than conventional back squats? By using the box you prevent yourself from going below parallel and therefore keeping the quads engaged throughout the movement and limiting the hamstrings and glutes. Definitely no expert but to me recommending box squats for posterior chain is wrong.

Depends on box height, stance width, whether the person sits back or down.

Not all box squats are the same.

Wailin

Hanley wrote: »

Depends on box height, stance width, whether the person sits back or down.

Not all box squats are the same.

True enough guys but in most peoples cases with normal ROM the box squat will work the quads more, it's the mechanics of it. Taken from Strength Training Anatomy- "in a classic squat, the tension accumulated in the muscles during the negative phase is released during the positive phase. Sitting down on a bench during the box squat relaxes the muscles of the thighs so they cannot use the accumulated energy from the descent for the ascent.

For this reason, with the same amount of weight, the effort of the quadriceps is more intense in the classic box squat. Thus, it is a very good movement for focusing the work onto the thighs."

And having done box, front and back squats, for me this is definitely the case.

Hanley

Wailin wrote: »

True enough guys but in most peoples cases with normal ROM the box squat will work the quads more, it's the mechanics of it. Taken from Strength Training Anatomy- "in a classic squat, the tension accumulated in the muscles during the negative phase is released during the positive phase. Sitting down on a bench during the box squat relaxes the muscles of the thighs so they cannot use the accumulated energy from the descent for the ascent.

For this reason, with the same amount of weight, the effort of the quadriceps is more intense in the classic box squat. Thus, it is a very good movement for focusing the work onto the thighs."

And having done box, front and back squats, for me this is definitely the case.

That's because youre sitting on a bench which leaves you above parallel. And probably using a normal width stance.

Add 6 inches of width to your stance and 3-5 inches of depth to the squat and come back to me.

Any squat above parallel wil be more quad dominant.

Box or not.

Wailin

Hanley wrote: »

That's because youre sitting on a bench which leaves you above parallel. And probably using a normal width stance.

Add 6 inches of width to your stance and 3-5 inches of depth to the squat and come back to me.

Any squat above parallel wil be more quad dominant.

Box or not.

I never squat above parallel, with box squat it's at least parallel or lower and with back and front squats it's always with hamstrings touching calfs.

Hanley

Wailin wrote: »

I never squat above parallel, with box squat it's at least parallel or lower and with back and front squats it's always with hamstrings touching calfs.

Then you must be over 6.5 feet tall if you're using a bench as a box to achieve that.

Or you're doing box squats wrong.

Or misinterpeting what you're reading.

Because...

"Sitting down on a bench during the box squat relaxes the muscles of the thighs so they cannot use the accumulated energy from the descent for the ascent."

...this clearly mentions bench, which means above parallel, which means quads recruited preferentially, which means you're arguing different points, or just getting confused in the whole situation.

Because if you're boxing squatting anything like this, there's no way your quads are getting recruited as the primary mover;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yay_40P98HQ

The bench behind the box in this vid is about 1.5 to 2 inches lower than a normal bench (custom build) and the box height is still below that.

Wailin

Hanley wrote: »

Then you must be over 6.5 feet tall if you're using a bench as a box to achieve that.

Or you're doing box squats wrong.

Or misinterpeting what you're reading.

Because...

"Sitting down on a bench during the box squat relaxes the muscles of the thighs so they cannot use the accumulated energy from the descent for the ascent."

...this clearly mentions bench, which means above parallel, which means quads recruited preferentially, which means you're arguing different points, or just getting confused in the whole situation.

Because if you're boxing squatting anything like this, there's no way your quads are getting recruited as the primary mover;



The bench behind the box in this vid is about 1.5 to 2 inches lower than a normal bench (custom build) and the box height is still below that.

The bench I have at the moment is only a cheap thing from argos (have a much more solid one ordered and on the way) and it is very low when flat. I'm only 5' 9" and when I sit on the bench my legs are parallel. As I said in my very first post, I'm definitely no expert....but my squatting form is excellent, in box, front and normal versions. Looking at your video, your leg stance is a good deal wider than what I'd normally use, although I do vary it sometimes. Just to clarify then, what you are doing in the video is hitting the hams and glutes more than the quads?

Love the set up by the way, never saw that type of bar before, so it feels more like a front squat then does it?

Actually, just looking at the illustration in the book I mentioned, the position is definitely at parallel sitting on the bench.

Hanley

Wailin wrote: »

The bench I have at the moment is only a cheap thing from argos (have a much more solid one ordered and on the way) and it is very low when flat. I'm only 5' 9" and when I sit on the bench my legs are parallel. As I said in my very first post, I'm definitely no expert....but my squatting form is excellent, in box, front and normal versions. Looking at your video, your leg stance is a good deal wider than what I'd normally use, although I do vary it sometimes. Just to clarify then, what you are doing in the video is hitting the hams and glutes more than the quads?

Bingo. Wider stance = more hips/hams, less quads

Love the set up by the way, never saw that type of bar before, so it feels more like a front squat then does it?

Yup. It's called a safety squat bar. The bar sits higher and forces you to keep your arch or you get smashed forwards (really good tool for training back/core)

Actually, just looking at the illustration in the book I mentioned, the position is definitely at parallel sitting on the bench.

Yah I still think the illustration is off or they're just drawing it for convenience. No normal gym bench in a commercial gym would have you even close to parallel when you sit on it

GerSmith

When my squat was at it's highest I trained hamstrings 2 x week.

It enabled me to do heavy movements (RDLs, SLDLs in rep range anywhere 6-10) one day, then with few days rest, more isolated / machine based exercises for higher reps (10-20). Rationale; I followed the WSB methods and it worked for me...So depending on your workout setup it might not be achievable to do that, but that comes down to your goals also.

I loved box squatting (I also did that twice per week), but hamstring work went alongside it and not in place of it.

Hanley

GerSmith wrote: »

When my squat was at it's highest I trained hamstrings 2 x week.

It enabled me to do heavy movements (RDLs, SLDLs in rep range anywhere 6-10) one day, then with few days rest, more isolated / machine based exercises for higher reps (10-20). Rationale; I followed the WSB methods and it worked for me...So depending on your workout setup it might not be achievable to do that, but that comes down to your goals also.

I loved box squatting (I also did that twice per week), but hamstring work went alongside it and not in place of it.

OMG it's THE Ger Smith

GerSmith

Getting cyber-bullied already?! :P

Theresalwaysone

Decent non deadlifting Hamstring exercices?

GerSmith

Glute Ham Raises
Pull throughs
single leg curls
machine leg curls


I would also put leg pressing in there too. Depending on the position of the feet. This will hit glutes also, which is a potential issue for people who claim weak hamstrings.

Alf Veedersane

RDLs, GHRs, Goood Mornings and, to a lesser degree, hamstring curls (no hip involvement)

Hanley

GerSmith wrote: »

Getting cyber-bullied already?! :P

STFU newb!

Da Za

Currently I don't do any specific hamstring training whatsoever and my squat is the best it's every been but the volume of my squatting is decent.

Learning how to squat from a book is a bit.......mmmmm not practical and no1 has excellent squatting form!

People like different methods, find out what works for you but I wouldn't box squat if you're a raw squatter. A box squat would have its place if properly programmed as a secondary lift on a deadlift day say.

Wailin

Da Za wrote: »

Learning how to squat from a book is a bit.......mmmmm not practical and no1 has excellent squatting form!

Stop being presumptuous, I never learned how to squat from a book. I just used it as an example of why I thought box squats were more quad orientated.

No one has excellent squatting form? Why not?

Blacktie.

Theresalwaysone wrote: »

Decent non deadlifting Hamstring exercices?

Good mornings