Am I being Irrational & Unreasonable

Penny Tration

How can you believe he will actually abide by what you've requested?

You won't be there to see if he chats to or compliments her. You won't be there if he lies about a work night out, so he could be with her. He could lie about texts or emails or delete them as necessary.

If you can't trust him, how can you believe he's adhering your demands?

irishguy1983

So Bloody Frustrated wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies.

To clarify a few points (because I know that I wasn't very clear at the time, sorry) all of the post work exercise is not unusual. The company encourages team building through exercise and gives a few days off to do a team event, fully paid for by the company. His last team (he moved up in the company) was an all male one that did cycling as their group activity. After work training, weekend cycles and long distance events were regular and normal. There are obviously plenty of showers in the buildings (group of them together) to accommodate this. In the past, I would be invited with the rest of the other halves to meet them for lunch on a cycle stop somewhere, so the running didn't initially worry me.

When I said that she isn't his type, she really isn't. While physically she doesn't fit the profile, I know that the emotional side is what would really be the obstacle. Without sounding nasty, he is quite emotionally needy in his own way and tends to go for calm, less excitable people. Her level of drama brought out the big brother, not the potential lover (she wouldn't have been there with the reassuring hugs, she would have needed them).

We are slowly making progress with this. I am confident that nothing physical happened. He is a prize idiot and came close to the line though I imagine. Initially he was hurt and confused and just couldn't understand why his boss & I were acting like this. He felt that we were putting two and two together and getting four.

I spent hours and hours pointing out the highly inappropriate behavior but nothing really seemed to sink in. I actually have his sister to thank for making him view it all in a slightly different light. She heard him out, I never said anything and she told him not to be such a fool. This girl at work has no female friends (none at all apparently), is always flirting with him, confiding in him, organizing to spend time with him and inviting herself into our home. It all seems a bit too convenient, or not even that, maybe just contrived?

Anyway, I blame him for getting sucked in whole scale and for denying or refusing to admit that there was anything wrong for a long time. The trust on my part is gone. I do not trust him to know where the lines are and when they are crossed. I do not really trust him at all. This is obviously not a good basis for a marriage, so I have decided (no negotiations) that any progress is on hold. We are going to try to rebuild some of what we had, but the trust thing is huge. I have laid down some serious rules, which hopefully are not unreasonable.

I have asked him not to go for coffee breaks or lunch breaks alone or in a small group with her. No more listening to her problems, expressing concerns or complimenting her (she does fish for compliments). No more doing anything alone with her, be it working alone, travelling alone, walking alone or running alone. No more evening activities, if she is billy no mates, that is not his business. If she asks him to the cinema, pub or dinner, that is to be a flat refusal and no excuses offered on his part. He has agreed that there will be no more work related stuff at the weekend, no more activities beyond running after six and that he is not going to go away for the team event (weekend in a hotel with her, I don't think so). He has also suggested himself that all CPD will be done separately where possible.They will have to continue to work together, unless management deem it unsuitable, so I cannot ask him to cut all contact. He has stopped responding to her messages/ emails and calls in the evening. He offered to show me his messages/ emails, etc but I don't feel that is necessary. The betrayal was not based on this sort of stuff. Yet again, do you think my demands are unreasonable? I find it very hard to have perspective. The fact that they work together is complicating things.

If you don't think she is his type/don't think he would be interested in her then why make any demands? I think you are only folling yourself but hope I am worng and it all works out.

MagicMarker

I'm a little confused, if you don't believe for a second that he cheated, then why do you now not trust him at all?

Merkin

Is it just me or can't you concede that there is still a rather gargantuan elephant sitting in the room still?

You've done up your list of conditions, he apparently is shocked at people's reactions to the 'friendship', he has promised to keep a distance from her etc etc. all stuff that papers over the apparent cracks.

What about his flagrant disregard for you, your relationship and his complete dismissal of the concerns you raised quite some time ago? That's the crux of this issue. What about those big problems?

Tigger99

Why did you have to produce a list? Why didn't he offer? Also you mentioned his sister making him see sense, so again he was ignoring your view? I'd find that hard to stomach.

rcarroll

You're treating he girl as if she's the problem without either you or your bf realizing that his behaviour towards you-ignoring your concerns, going weeks without making enough time.for you to even have a proper conversation about things, basically prioritising someone you claim he wouldnt even like as more important and worthy.of his time and support than his fiance...this is the problem! What happens the next time another woman comes along-make a list of rules for her too?? You cant force someone not to be friends with a woman...fact is it'll build resentment on his side and make you look like the controlling paranoid gf...but you shouldnt HAVE to get to that stage...that's what the other posters are trying to get you to see

What happens if you have children or a sick relative- will he be off the map for weeks again leaving you to hold the fort at home and not even be able to have him in the same room long enough to talk and make decisions??

Sounds like you're the mother teaching the kid how to behave, and his only limits to how badly he'll neglect you is what he can get away with.

Whatever about trust and boundaries, he really doesn't seem to have a problem letting you down, putting you last and making false promises. Even if he never meets another damsel in distress who's problems he's compelled to prioritise above his fiancee's happiness, he seems very selfish indeed.

LegacyUser

green_screen wrote: »

How can you believe he will actually abide by what you've requested?

You won't be there to see if he chats to or compliments her. You won't be there if he lies about a work night out, so he could be with her. He could lie about texts or emails or delete them as necessary.

If you can't trust him, how can you believe he's adhering your demands?

This by a million! And I actually agree with other posters too since your last post. I just feel like you or your OH are fully grasping this situation.

You've made a list of things he's not to do - he should KNOW that he crossed lines and should KNOW in future that those lines arent to be crossed. Giving him a list like it's a load of chores just seems bizarre to me?

LegacyUser

rcarroll wrote: »

You're treating he girl as if she's the problem without either you or your bf realizing that his behaviour towards you-ignoring your concerns, going weeks without making enough time.for you to even have a proper conversation about things, basically prioritising someone you claim he wouldnt even like as more important and worthy.of his time and support than his fiance...this is the problem! What happens the next time another woman comes along-make a list of rules for her too?? You cant force someone not to be friends with a woman...fact is it'll build resentment on his side and make you look like the controlling paranoid gf...but you shouldnt HAVE to get to that stage...that's what the other posters are trying to get you to see

What happens if you have children or a sick relative- will he be off the map for weeks again leaving you to hold the fort at home and not even be able to have him in the same room long enough to talk and make decisions??

He has loads of female friends, he has spent loads of time with them, never bothered me, never will. He had a female friend in college and he goes to visit her abroad sometimes, he lived for years with another female friend. They were just friends. This is different. I am treating her as a problem, because she is a huge problem. She is persistently trying to contact him at night and asking him to talk because she is so lonely and has nobody else to talk to, feels so alone, feels so lost, etc. This is a huge issue. She sent an email last night saying that she was going to call over because she needed someone to talk to. We were out and he didn't respond, so she sent another message asking why he wasn't at home and why he won't spend time with her, he is her only friend, etc.

His behavior is another huge issue and I am treating them separately. I gave him a list because he offered to: 1) Quit work (he was serious) 2) Ask for a demotion to his old department. He cannot move sideways so to speak and I am not going to agree to him quitting a good job in a recession.

He asked me what he could do, so I gave him a list. He tends to be all or nothing and he is embarrassed about how he is perceived at work so I wouldn't put it past him to panic, tell her to never speak to him again and just walk away from it.

Why did his sister have to point it out? I think it was just that she gave him a different perspective on it. I kept at it about his behavior, what he should know and do. She took the line that it looked to her like 1) He was cheating 2) He was about to cheat 3) He was getting sucked into a very emotional relationship with this girl 4) That he was being manipulated by her to a certain extent 5) That she would have dumped him long ago. I suppose that his sister is used to his stubborn behavior and probably understands his mindset a bit better than I do.

Do I think he will do it? I do, he has been crying every evening since last week. He knows all too well that she is the exception to the rule. Her recent, more persistent behavior has just emphasized how out of line they both were. I suppose that when he got pulled back into line, it gave him some perspective. He has had and will continue to have plenty of normal friendships with women. This friendship is far from healthy. He ran to her at the first sign of distress and now that he is resisting, it is getting more extreme.

I want to emphasize now that it is not all rosy in the garden. We are going to try to repair the damage, but as I said earlier, I do not trust him anymore. I feel it deserves a shot at repair, because it is not in my nature to just be rash and throw the best part of a decade down the drain without some attempt to fix it. If it works, it will be a long, uphill battle, if it doesn't, I will know that I have done my best. Ultimately, he has made his bed and he will have to lie in it.

Penny Tration

Op, not to be cheeky, but why are you telling him what he did wrong?

His sister gave a different perspective, so because he listened to that, it makes it fine that he disregarded your opinions and feelings on the matter? I'd be absolutely furious at that, moreso than his behaviour of late. Why do your feelings and opinions not count until someone else (well, two someone elses) tells him to cop on?

Offering to quit his job or ask for a demotion sounds like he's trying to fix things, in theory. However, the cynical side of me would think that since he refused to acknowledge your feelings, he's just extremely embarrassed over his boss having a word and wants to quit to save himself the embarrassment of facing his boss.

He might be willing to follow your 'rules' now, but that's only because his sister had a go at him and you refused to accept his rash idea to quit work.

I highly doubt the girl manipulated him, to be frank. She's a silly, irrational woman, no doubt about it, but he CHOSE to put her feelings before yours. She didn't make him do what he did. He considered her feelings to be more important than yours. That's a decision he made, despite you telling him how it made you feel.

I respect that you don't want to throw away so many years, and fair play for being willing to work on it. But you're painting your boyfriend as a hapless imbecile, who was taken in by some manipulative scarlet woman, when what you have described is most certainly not the case.

Merkin

green_screen wrote: »

I respect that you don't want to throw away so many years, and fair play for being willing to work on it. But you're painting your boyfriend as a hapless imbecile, who was taken in by some manipulative scarlet woman, when what you have described is most certainly not the case.

I agree with this one hundred percent. This woman is being branded as a manipulative piece of work, which she evidently is, and yet your boyfriend is being painted as some hapless, naive and kind-hearted eejit which I don't buy for one minute. The tears are because he was a. caught out and b. embarrassed because of his professional reputation. What remorse is he actually showing for cheating on you? Emotionally or otherwise?

LegacyUser

green_screen wrote: »

Op, not to be cheeky, but why are you telling him what he did wrong?

His sister gave a different perspective, so because he listened to that, it makes it fine that he disregarded your opinions and feelings on the matter? I'd be absolutely furious at that, moreso than his behaviour of late. Why do your feelings and opinions not count until someone else (well, two someone elses) tells him to cop on?

Offering to quit his job or ask for a demotion sounds like he's trying to fix things, in theory. However, the cynical side of me would think that since he refused to acknowledge your feelings, he's just extremely embarrassed over his boss having a word and wants to quit to save himself the embarrassment of facing his boss.

He might be willing to follow your 'rules' now, but that's only because his sister had a go at him and you refused to accept his rash idea to quit work.

I highly doubt the girl manipulated him, to be frank. She's a silly, irrational woman, no doubt about it, but he CHOSE to put her feelings before yours. She didn't make him do what he did. He considered her feelings to be more important than yours. That's a decision he made, despite you telling him how it made you feel.

I respect that you don't want to throw away so many years, and fair play for being willing to work on it. But you're painting your boyfriend as a hapless imbecile, who was taken in by some manipulative scarlet woman, when what you have described is most certainly not the case.

I don't think that he is a helpless imbecile or that she is a scarlet woman, I think that the truth is somewhere inbetween. She is certainly a mess, but from what I have seen recently she is certainly a manipulative one. He offered the CPD thing himself because she asked (by email at night) if they could do it together so that they could have some alone time. She keeps trying to play the victim card. She is not a wide eyed innocent by any measure.

He know that she was flirting with him and relying on him to a massive extent and was incredibly flattered. He was getting plenty attention and enjoying the excitement of a risk free (he felt) adventure. Plus he was the hero, constantly helping his damsel in distress.

I think that the difference between what I said and what his sister said was that she laid out the potential for cheating, I didn't. I focused on how abandoned I felt and how sidelined I felt. He just looked at me and saw his girlfriend demanding more attention when someone else clearly needed it (I also have no doubt that he felt she really did).

I doubt that the quitting thing was just about embarrassment, he genuinely seems panicked and remorseful. He is incredibly financially driven, so he doesn't joke about money, etc.That said, I am keeping an open mind since I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him.

We are going back to a stage in our relationship that never really existed, I don't trust him, we are not on solid ground. His family have rallied around behind me (I never spoke to them about it, he confided in his sister), and are offering me support and an opportunity to just get away from him at times (my own family are hours away and my friends are only available sometimes). I don't know how this will end and I am still straightening stuff out in my head. I suspect that it wasn't until this weekend that he really grasped the enormity of the situation.

Colser

The thing is there will always be people like her OP,we all know one and while I may allow him to get taken in by her briefly he actually went totally awol with her until his boss stepped in.For a few weeks he was only coming home to sleep.That does not sound like a mature man it sounds very child like.

Also he didnt really suffer any consequences at home..you were still there for him and willing to accept him back with a few ground rules. Why did it take his sister to point out the similarities to an affair with him...surely as his fiancee this side of things would have been high on your agenda.

Can he not still see her for what she is and does he realise why she is friendless? There should be no correspondence between them at this stage to be honest.One last thing..If this was all just friendship/helpfulness why didnt he challenge it more at work..If I was wrongfully accused of carrying on with a work colleague when in reality we were only friends I would not accept it and would need to know what exactly prompted my boss to intervene.

dellas1979

The one thing that worries me from your replies is that he cant seem to see (on his own) what is acceptable/not acceptable, in his behaviour to this girl, and in his behaviour and attitude towards you.

I really think he would benefit talking to someone (in a professional capacity). Straighten his head. As to why he couldnt see that boundaries were blurred all over the place. Red flags were flying and he ignored them or didnt see them. And the consequence to whats happened. Ok-his sister got him to see it in a certain light in the end. But my lord, a lot happened for him to get there.

Oryx

I think you have both been too complacent in your attitude. You trusted your guy above and beyond acceptable limits and happily let him off with another woman because 'she wasn't his type'. He still spent all his time with her though, to the point that you got irritated by his neglect. He took you for granted, assumed he could ignore conventional rules of behaviour because, sure, you didn't mind and everything was grand. Look what happened.

You are not to blame for his crass behaviour, but both of you seemed to let this woman waltz into the middle of your relationship because neither of you saw the danger. Every relationship needs work and maintenance to keep it alive, even supposedly very solid ones.

LETHAL LADY

So Bloody Frustrated wrote: »

His family have rallied around behind me (I never spoke to them about it, he confided in his sister), and are offering me support and an opportunity to just get away from him at times (my own family are hours away and my friends are only available sometimes). I don't know how this will end and I am still straightening stuff out in my head. I suspect that it wasn't until this weekend that he really grasped the enormity of the situation.

I have to commend you on your composure up to this point OP, but I would suggest that his family rallying around may not exactly be what you need at the moment. Yes they may be well intentioned, but his family's loyalty is naturally going to lay with your fiancé and what is best for him, which in their eyes equals you. This imo is adding another level of pressure on you that you certainly don't need at this time.

At the very least I would suggest you could use a few days away from the whole situation, perhaps a trip home to see your own family and friends. You may not wish to confide with anyone else about this but at the very least you would get a break away from all the stress.

Good luck with everything OP.

Big Bag of Chips

OP, the one big thing that you need to take from this is - you raised your concerns with him. Again and again. You asked him to cut down on his time with her. Again and again. Even when he did decide to go out with you, he "had to text her to see if she was ok".. again completely disregarding you and everything you said.

And then..

His boss says something and he's mortified by his behaviour and thinking about quitting work. And his sister says something, and suddenly it's all clear in his head.

Why was it not clear all the times you said it?

Every person in a long term relationship can be guilty of taking their partner for granted. It's what happens when we get comfortable. But he took the absolute p*ss with this one. And you seem to be ok with that??

Taking your partner for granted isn't a hanging offense. But completely and repeatedly disregarding your long term partner, the person you are preparing to marry, when they raise their concerns with you is a whole other level.

You are determined to make this work. You are determined to believe he didn't mean any harm. I just hope he's as determined as you are to prove himself to you. Otherwise you have a long life of following him around "teaching" him (as another poster mentioned) how he should behave. The list of things you have pointed out to him should be common sense to anyone in a normal functioning serious long term relationship.

Ande1975

OP,
It's rare for me to read a thread and be gobsmacked.
Take yer wan out of the equation a second, we can all agree she's an oxygen thief and brazen to boot, but (I'll caveat this that I am only going on what you have posted) have you considered that maybe you and your fiancé are just not compatible?
I am only saying this as you are extremely laid back (nothing wrong with that) and it's disturbing how you are not really seeing the problem and how your fiancé is taking the P*ss.
I'm sorry but this thread is baffling

Flippyfloppy

The fact your fiancé disregarded your needs and feelings for so long, as well as appearing to have no idea how to act around other people doesn't make you not want to get married at all? You don't have to settle for this you know

tinkerbell

Good God, OP. I know you say you don't trust him anymore but you still seem hung onto this notion that he was playing the hero and that she was a damsel in distress. Both of them were acting completely inappropriately but the difference is that HE is more at fault as he's the one in a relationship! She's single, she's accountable to nobody. If he wasn't physically cheating, he was emotionally cheating and he was no doubt about to physically cheat on you. To say that he still wouldn't see it from your point of view until his sister stepped in, I mean FFS he has some neck. He clearly has NO regard for you at all and only tows the line when other people step in (ie his boss and sister). And you plan on marrying this guy? The only person your partner is accountable to is YOU when it comes to your relationship - not his boss and not his sister.

To say that she's texting your fiancé asking about doing CPD together so they can spend some alone time together, oh please. Your fiancé is an idiot and I'm sorry to say that I'm afraid you are a bigger fool. There is something more going on here. You shouldn't have to spell it out to him and what he can and cannot do - he still does not get it. He did not give a crap about you and ran to another woman, pretty much dating her, while completely ignoring you. And he still doesn't see your point of view until others point it out to him. You've a long road ahead of you if you intend to marry him without him making some serious acceptance of everything he has done here.

Toots

OP has your fiancé actually said to this woman that he is cutting contact with her? And did she get called in by the boss or was it just him?

LegacyUser

I just can't understand how you are willing to brush all of his ridiculous (insanely ridiculous) behaviour under the carpet.

He has behaved like a prize dck, and I don't trust the sob story that he's just a poor little boy who has been used because he's just so nice. Come ON!! God, you'd have to travel far to find someone as thick / with no idea of the outside world as he pretends to be.

You've been taken for a mug - and apparently his behaviour with Little Miss Needy is so OTT that his boss and family have felt it necessary to step in. But none of it it is his fault, right?!??

Past behaviour won't guarantee or ruin your future - but it's a reasonable predictor. And your prediction is that he will continue to ignore your feelings got ever, and will constantly have his head turned.

Do you really want to be with this self confessed idiot (or, more likely, manipulative idiot).

I'd get out sooner rather than later.

Czarcasm

Having read the last eleven pages OP, your boyfriend sounds like the only person he suits, is himself. I doubt very much that his boss said boo to him tbh, I doubt his sister's speech had any effect on him. He cut off contact with this girl because HE decided he'd had enough. You can make up all the lists you want, but soon as he feels he's got an inch again, he'll take a mile when the next girl comes along.

You honestly shouldn't have to be making lists anyway to tell a grown man how to behave appropriately, let alone give him instructions on how to show you he gives a damn about YOU. He should want to give a damn about you without being told how to do it.

Your boyfriend isn't half as stupid as you think he is tbh. You have no idea what he was telling this girl either, and the whole "bonding time" thing - the staff that works together, exercises together, eats together, drinks together, goes to the cinema together... Your boyfriend is either a secret scientologist, or more likely he's just filling you full of shìt knowing you'll believe anything as long as you think you're in control. Did you honestly think he'd give up a job like that and the social life it affords him, or did you just want to believe that? "Ahh well there's no need to go that far now", "OK then".

You're saying there's no trust there, but from my reading of your boyfriend's attitude and behaviour so far in this thread, something tells me he doesn't give a **** about whether you trust him or not, he'll push and manipulate and cross whatever boundaries he feels like, with the sole aim of pleasing himself.

Wise up a small bit OP, you're the more gullible mug here, and well your boyfriend knows it.

Big Bag of Chips

For the rest of your life are you going to have to call his family in to point out to him when there's trouble? Relationships are not easy. They go through bad patches. They go through hardships. Life adds stresses. Are you going to have to let his family in on personal details of your relationship so they can step in to sort it out again?

I agree with everyone else who says the problems in your relationship run deeper than this girl. She's just highlighted them.

missjm

Wow, I've just spent ages reading 9 pages and really didn't expect the outcome you explain in the end.
In all of this you come off as an absolute Saint to be honest. I'd have thrown him out pages ago!

A few things that stood out to me and sorry for coming in late when it appears to be somewhat resolved.

Firstly, I don't believe his stories. I don't believe he was always in a group with this girl and I don't believe there was absolutely nothing going on that his boss took him aside and had words. It's true that a lot of companies frown on relationships between team members but no manager would call their employee into a room and warn them without being absolutely certain something was going on. Sorry, but it's true.
I do agree that this girl is a bit off the scale with her contact with him etc. However, she was being encouraged.

The only part where I'll cut this guy a tiny break is when you explain the leeway you give him with other female friends. Going abroad staying with one etc. Truthfully, I wouldn't be okay with that either but it's clear you've trusted him 100% in the past. I'm beginning to wonder if that was a good thing. Perhaps he thinks whatever he does, your going to be okay with it.

lilylimerick29

Your fella sounds like a right aul handbag! bawling and crying and doing the dr phil bit for some looney in work. Ugh, I'd have his bags packed, 4 years ago!

LegacyUser

Even if your BF is entirely genuine about this girl, what has gone on, and how he feels about her (which I don't even 1% believe), the biggest indicator for me is that people just simply don't drop everyone else in their life if a work colleague / friend / good friend / family member is having a sh*t time. It just doesn't happen.

You know when people do this? In the event of someone incredilbly close having a terminal illness, or else for someone they're besotted by. I can't think of any scenario where a friend having a cr*p time = ignore your family, partner, social obligations - especially when your boss, family & partner have pointed it out and pulled you up on it! People just don't do that.

I think it's almost certain that your BF is not your BF any more. He's her BF now. Whether they've had sex or not is irrelevant - if he hasn't, he's just 'doing the right thing' until ye split up. Honestly, I'd say they're taking every opportunity to be together (and making up fairy stories of justifying it) until he annoys you enough so that you dump him.

IMHO, it's over, has been for the past while, he has a new GF, and you are being played by a master manipulator. Get the hell out and never contact this manipulator (pretending to be a man-child) ever again.

Linoge

His grand gesture of quitting his job, getting a demotion etc. was just that - a gesture. It sounds great but realistically, in this CEC would you really have had him go ahead with it??

The reason why he asked you what he needs to do and not come up with these "rules" himself is that way he can get away with the very minimum of what he needs to do to keep you happy. For example you never told him to, on no uncertain terms, to tell this girl to stop contacting him - so he didnt! Still emailing him and texting him away. Did you tell him to delete her from FB? Delete her number? If you haven't, did he take any initiative to do this himself? What steps has he taken that wasn't explicitly laid out by you?

Also, as with everyone else here, I think you are way too caught up in his "type". Relationship, marriage, kids - absolutely can understand that. Sexual attraction however does not need a type.

summer_chic

So Bloody Frustrated wrote: »

He offered the CPD thing himself because she asked (by email at night) if they could do it together so that they could have some alone time.

He was getting plenty attention and enjoying the excitement of a risk free (he felt) adventure. Plus he was the hero, constantly helping his damsel in distress.

I think that the difference between what I said and what his sister said was that she laid out the potential for cheating, I didn't. I focused on how abandoned I felt and how sidelined I felt. He just looked at me and saw his girlfriend demanding more attention when someone else clearly needed it

I suspect that it wasn't until this weekend that he really grasped the enormity of the situation.

I've edited your post to highlight your acceptance of his behaviour. I understand you want to work at it, but you need to work on your confidence first ,so you can deal with him as an equal. you have been humiliated by the one person who should cherish you while he has had his ego massaged , that's perhaps why you continue to make excuses for his behaviour towards you. It's very simple : you deserve better. Much better. Remember that and demand it . No lists should be required if he truly understands what he has done wrong - he should figure out how to fix it all by himself. Perhaps you could ask him how he'd feel on behalf of his female friends if their partners behaved like that towards them ?