We Need To Talk About Slow Play

Golfgraffix

Slicemeister wrote: »

Beaten to it. Wonder is it expensive or/and effective?

GREENi is very effective, in most cases where we have put it into a course we have shaved off about 10 minutes per round. Where it was surprisingly effective was in highlighting the bottle necks, remember course design and setup have a huge effect on the time of a round. With Castleknock the system identified the 2nd as a bottle neck but rather than look at changing the the time spacing it was decided to make the 1st a little harder, use the back tee box more, let the rough grow and tightened the fairway a little.

J

sydneybound

Golfgraffix wrote: »

GREENi is very effective, in most cases where we have put it into a course we have shaved off about 10 minutes per round. Where it was surprisingly effective was in highlighting the bottle necks, remember course design and setup have a huge effect on the time of a round. With Castleknock the system identified the 2nd as a bottle neck but rather than look at changing the the time spacing it was decided to make the 1st a little harder, use the back tee box more, let the rough grow and tightened the fairway a little.

J

Nice bit of interesting background there.

charlieIRL

Goldenjohn wrote: »

Firstly, Never gonna play a boards outing after this thread......

I wouldn't base a judgement like that on what people said about 2 rounds. The first one mentioned wasn't our fault and it was only 2 groups held up as far as i can remember. We're going a few years now and that was the first time slow play has been brought up so your comment is a bit harsh.

slave1

It's been posted a while back but I just want to state that there are some courses with natural bottlenecks that cause delay e.g. par 3 second can be a disaster or where you have to walk back from the direction in which you went onto the green to get to the next tee box and the group behind you have to wait for all this to happen.
Agree with the other side of the coin regarding comments on the group behind playing balls up your hole, that's both dangerous and simply knob acting.
HOWEVER, even with slow play there is nothing more annoying that a single player in your group going on about slow play throughout the round, when its slow, its slow, and we all know when certain courses are packed in 4ball outings it just going to be slow, you do need a level of acceptance in these circumstances and just get on with it.
Slow golf is a hell of a lot better than no golf (at times)...

moycullen14

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I play on ladies day in my place and many men could learn from watching them. Yes they don't hit the ball far. But -
Very fast walking, No hanging around, ready to hit, no hands on head or crying about a missed putt.

+1

We had a 'heated debate' recently about Women playing on Sunday mornings. My view was that I wished they took over the time-sheet completely as they motor around the course at a good pace. As said above, they mightn't hit it too far, but it's 'Hit, walk, hit, walk'. Rarely losing balls or having to spend time looking for them.

Also, women in my experience want to do things 'right'. You don't get the 'It's my round and I'll take as long as I like' rubbish from them. I played behind a ladies 3 ball last Sunday, in front of them was a 3-ball containing some of the luminaries from the men's committee. The contrast couldn't have been more stark.

Woe betide the junior that gets in their way on Ladies day though. That would cure you of slow play for life

It must be said that they're great for sex too!

FixdePitchmark

Slow or fast.

Seve OB

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I play on ladies day in my place

Something to share with us????? :eek:

bustercherry

Women are the complete disaster in our place. They are always out in the middle of the men's comp and never keep up. Come across a 4 ball of them having a picnic 13th one day, was in a casual round but still

PARlance

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Slow or fast.

As long as it's approx 3 and a half hours they're usually happy.

Can't do a minute over 4 hours myself... Hips go and the tired swings come into it then.

Have to agree with MoyC, give me a group of women up ahead any day... For pace of play reasons.
Hit, walk, hit, walk.
No messing around looking for balls.
No ego if they're falling behind.

Throw 2 men into a mixed foursome and it's a different story.

Me Man. Me no let through other man. Me worried they steal my woman and bring them back to their village.

Finally got let through a mixed foursome when a lady in the group had to spend 3 holes reasoning with one of the men. She apologised on his behalf after thd round. Caveman stuff.

FixdePitchmark

stevieob wrote: »

Something to share with us????? :eek:

Always keep your options open.

Also can't win against men.

moycullen14

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Slow or fast.

As I said above, they want it done 'right'

charlieIRL

bustercherry wrote: »

Women are the complete disaster in our place. They are always out in the middle of the men's comp and never keep up. Come across a 4 ball of them having a picnic 13th one day, was in a casual round but still

Myself and slave played a round last year in the middle of ladies day. They would teach you a think or 2 about keeping the pace up. We went around in a comfortable 2h:50mins.

snaphook

It's the little things that all add up.

Take on the greens.
Some wait until whoever is away first to putt before they even begin reading their putts.
You should be ready to play once the other players ball comes to rest imo.

Also, marking short 1-2 foot putts. Your tour card or thousands of Euro's are not at stake here. PUTT OUT.

Whoever holes out first is responsible for the Flagstick. It's a simple rule to play by.

DuckSlice

snaphook wrote: »

Whoever holes out first is responsible for the Flagstick. It's a simple rule to play by.

I hate when I'm last to putt and have to put the flagstick in. It's usually people that are totally unaware of time on the course.

Rikand

I mark 1-2 foot putts. Reason being, i have the yips and if i just stand up to tap the putt in, I'll likely miss. Which is no good off my handicap.

i pretty much have to mark it and replace it before i can finish it and then i usually get it

bustercherry

etxp wrote: »

I hate when I'm last to putt and have tinpot the flagstick in. It's usually people that are totally unaware of time on the course.

Makes zero difference to pace of play but I do it out or courtesy.

GreeBo

bustercherry wrote: »

Makes zero difference to pace of play but I do it out or courtesy.

it slows down the last player
they have to go get the flag and then get their ball/put the flag in?

surely its faster for them to not have to go get the flag?

josie19

snaphook wrote: »

It's the little things that all add up.

Take on the greens.
Some wait until whoever is away first to putt before they even begin reading their putts.
You should be ready to play once the other players ball comes to rest imo.

Also, marking short 1-2 foot putts. Your tour card or thousands of Euro's are not at stake here. PUTT OUT.

Whoever holes out first is responsible for the Flagstick. It's a simple rule to play by.

+1

and whoever is closest is responsible for taking it out - logical and simple !

bustercherry

GreeBo wrote: »

it slows down the last player
they have to go get the flag and then get their ball/put the flag in?

surely its faster for them to not have to go get the flag?

Unless you are leaving the flag at the opposite side of the green, it takes 10 seconds at most. Worst case scenario is your playing with a load of ignorant fcuks and the last person picks up the flag on every hole; you are looking at maximum 3 minutes to the round. It's largely irrelevant if you are keeping up with the pace of play anyway, plus I've never been in round were the last person putting out has always put the flag in.

To be honest I hate people moving around the green when I or other players are putting. If I am putting out from the same side of the hole as the flag, it's quicker for me to putt and pop the flag back in rather than wait for another player to walk around pick up the flag before I putt; with the other player popping the flag in. Sometimes applying a bit of common sense is better.

It makes zero difference to the pace of play as it will even itself out over a round.

josie19

bustercherry wrote: »

Unless you are leaving the flag at the opposite side of the green, it takes 10 seconds at most. Worst case scenario is your playing with a load of ignorant fcuks and the last person picks up the flag on every hole; you are looking at maximum 3 minutes to the round. It's largely irrelevant if you are keeping up with the pace of play anyway, plus I've never been in round were the last person putting out has always put the flag in.

To be honest I hate people moving around the green when I or other players are putting. If I am putting out from the same side of the hole as the flag, it's quicker for me to putt and pop the flag back in rather than wait for another player to walk around pick up the flag before I putt; with the other player popping the flag in. Sometimes applying a bit of common sense is better.

It makes zero difference to the pace of play as it will even itself out over a round.

The first guy in the hole picks up the flag and stands out of your way. You hole out and he puts the flag back when you take your ball out.

Very bad etiquette to leave the last man holing out replace the flag as well.

bustercherry

josie19 wrote: »

+1

and whoever is closest is responsible for taking it out - logical and simple !

That's common sense and it's not too hard to ask the person to do it if they are messing around. Hence this should not be an issue full stop. If you are not asking the person closest to grab the pin (if they are not automatically doing it), you are just as responsible for the slow play.

bustercherry

josie19 wrote: »

The first guy in the hole picks up the flag and stands out of your way. You hole out and he puts the flag back when you take your ball out.

Very bad etiquette to leave the last man holing out replace the flag as well.

But the argument is you should be read to play. If you are all ready to play but you all have to wait for the first person to move around the green, then play is being slowed.

It's bad etiquette but arguing it's slow play? Give me break please.

josie19

bustercherry wrote: »

But the argument is you should be read to play. If you are all ready to play but you all have to wait for the first person to move around the green, then play is being slowed.

It's bad etiquette but arguing it's slow play? Give me break please.

I don't understand the point you are making. The guy nearest the pin takes the flag out and places it out of the way of others putting. The first guy to hole out goes to the flag and picks it up (out of people way). As the last guy holes out the flag holder replaces the flag. Nobody is waiting for anything except the last guy holding the flag who is waiting for the last person to hole out.

Dealerz

josie19 wrote: »

I don't understand the point you are making. The guy nearest the pin takes the flag out and places it out of the way of others putting. The first guy to hole out goes to the flag and picks it up (out of people way). As the last guy holes out the flag holder replaces the flag. Nobody is waiting for anything except the last guy holding the flag who is waiting for the last person to hole out.

Is this just plain obvious- the guy finished putting holds flag until all finished putting then he replaces flag? Any other way is just bloody bonkers!

RoadRunner

Personal thoughts.

GREENi -yes. (good move c'knock)

Removing 4balls from golf,
shouting at or hitting balls into the group ahead,
drawing circles around the hole
-no.

If you freak out everytime someone takes a practice swing or lasers the pin then you're trying to squeeze 18holes into too short of a time window. Try Tennis :P

bustercherry

josie19 wrote: »

I don't understand the point you are making. The guy nearest the pin takes the flag out and places it out of the way of others putting. The first guy to hole out goes to the flag and picks it up (out of people way). As the last guy holes out the flag holder replaces the flag. Nobody is waiting for anything except the last guy holding the flag who is waiting for the last person to hole out.

The person closest to the pin, lifts it out and sets it to one side. It is likely first person to hole out is not the same person and conceivable everyone isn't putting from same sides. If everyone is supposed to be ready to play, then you play once the first person picks their ball out of the hole and not once the first person moves around to pick up the flag. That's slow play..... So if the last person has to do it, it's largely irrelevant as it's evens itself out.

What is perceived to be slow in reality is just bad etiquette.

bustercherry

Dealerz wrote: »

Is this just plain obvious- the guy finished putting holds flag until all finished putting then he replaces flag? Any other way is just bloody bonkers!

Actually you should be moving out of everyone's peripheral vision (or not causing a shadow on their line) first so they can putt. Ideally the first person should replace the flag but as I say sometimes you need to apply common sense and not be running around the green like lunatic.

For example Player 1, lifts the flag and sets it to the side. Player 4 putts out and is expected to walk around and pick up the flag. It's winter or late evening and the player 4 is now casting a shadow on 1 or more of the other players lines and has to walk around to the side (around everyone's putting lines) of the hole they were originally on. This is slower than the last person replacing the flag. Likewise if the player 1 has to place the flag somewhere convenient for player 4, they are messing around while they should be preparing to putt (reading line etc...).

Common sense should prevail in these situations, including ignoring etiquette.

josie19

bustercherry wrote: »

Actually you should be moving out of everyone's peripheral vision (or not causing a shadow on their line) first so they can putt. Ideally the first person should replace the flag but as I say sometimes you need to apply common sense and not be running around the green like lunatic.

For example Player 1, lifts the flag and sets it to the side. Player 4 putts out and is expected to walk around and pick up the flag. It's winter or late evening and the player 4 is now casting a shadow on 1 or more of the other players lines and has to walk around to the side (around everyone's putting lines) of the hole they were originally on. This is slower than the last person replacing the flag. Likewise if the player 1 has to place the flag somewhere convenient for player 4, they are messing around while they should be preparing to putt (reading line etc...).

Common sense should prevail in these situations, including ignoring etiquette.

How to make something simple into something else ...

I offer a white flag now

bustercherry

josie19 wrote: »

How to make something simple into something else ...

I offer a white flag now

Like I say, sometime we need to apply some common sense to the situation rather than saying it's slow play for the sake of it.

Bad etiquette != slow play

bustercherry

josie19 wrote: »

How to make something simple into something else ...

I offer a white flag now

If your playing winter golf when the sun is lower in the sky, the shadow scenario is the norm on certain days. Sometimes it's just not practical on holes for people to be running around greens, especially on large greens too

GreeBo

bustercherry wrote: »

Like I say, sometime we need to apply some common sense to the situation rather than saying it's slow play for the sake of it.

Bad etiquette != slow play

You yourself pointed out that it would delay by 3 mins to the round.
All these little "irrelevant" things add up to slow play.

Also I dont see how it evens itself out over the round. If you do something slower than possible you dont catch up by continuing to do it slower?

Not having the last guy putting in the flag is faster than anything else and just as important as playing ready golf on the next tee. End of.

Dealerz

bustercherry wrote: »

If your playing winter golf when the sun is lower in the sky, the shadow scenario is the norm on certain days. Sometimes it's just not practical on holes for people to be running around greens, especially on large greens too

I just don't get your point...I'm out before my eyes start to hurt

Russman

How hard can it be for someone who has finished out, to grab the flag in between the next guys putting or once the next guy has actually struck his putt ? How long does it take to get your shadow out of someone's line ?

I think we're really getting hung up on irrelevant minor details here tbh. Common sense and courtesy on the greens, without any hard and fast rules is the way to go.

GreeBo

GreeBo wrote: »

You yourself pointed out that it would delay by 3 mins to the round.
All these little "irrelevant" things add up to slow play.

Also I dont see how it evens itself out over the round. If you do something slower than possible you dont catch up by continuing to do it slower?

Not having the last guy putting in the flag is faster than anything else and just as important as playing ready golf on the next tee. End of.

Yeah - it's surely both rude and slow play to expect the last player in to pick up the flag and put it back in the hole.

By the time the last player is lining up his putt whoever was in first or second should have a hold of the flag and be ready to say "well done" and pop the flag back in as soon as the ball is out.

I would soon be getting pissed off at playing partners who stood around doing nothing and expected me to put the flag back in after a last putt - it makes no sense!

GreeBo

First guy to hole out gets his ball and picks up the flag and gets out of the way, its simple, effective and fast.
I honestly cant see where the argument is coming from!

Though it is nice to be on the same side as "the masses", for once....

Russman

[QUOTE=GreeBo;89760620
Though it is nice to be on the same side as "the masses", for once.... [/QUOTE]

Its oddly disconcerting...........;)

bustercherry

GreeBo wrote: »

You yourself pointed out that it would delay by 3 mins to the round.
All these little "irrelevant" things add up to slow play.

Also I dont see how it evens itself out over the round. If you do something slower than possible you dont catch up by continuing to do it slower?

Not having the last guy putting in the flag is faster than anything else and just as important as playing ready golf on the next tee. End of.

It "could" add 3 minutes at the most, every once in a while is either here nor there. Plus as I've said, players should be ready to play, it takes just as long to wait for another player to move around the green than than pick up the flag at the end. So realistically it should even itself out. It's potentially slower for the last player but the potential delay for 2nd player evens it out.

By the way you don't win a discussion by finishing with End Of. It just make you come across as a patronizing pr1ck, something that I would argue mods should be trying to avoid.

bustercherry

GreeBo wrote: »

First guy to hole out gets his ball and picks up the flag and gets out of the way, its simple, effective and fast.
I honestly cant see where the argument is coming from!

Though it is nice to be on the same side as "the masses", for once....

So if he has to walk round to the opposite side of the green in the next players peripheral vision, casting shadows etc... The next player is held up, hence it's irrelevant they replace the flag as the slow play has already occurred.

Apply common sense.

Russman

bustercherry wrote: »

So if he has to walk round to the opposite side of the green in the next players peripheral vision, casting shadows etc... The next player is held up, hence it's irrelevant they replace the flag as the slow play has already occurred.

Apply common sense.

Can he not do it after the next player has struck his shot or is lining up his putt ?
As you say, common sense should be applied.

bustercherry

Russman wrote: »

Can he not do it after the next player has struck his shot or is lining up his putt ?
As you say, common sense should be applied.

What happens if he casting a shadow on the putting lines? You can't read a putt through a shadow let alone putt, so he needs to move again.

It's utterly ridiculous to make a blanket statement the last person putting replacing the flag causes slow play. It's poor etiquette by the playing partners, which may happen a few times a round but not to the extreme extent of delaying around to 3 minutes (even though I'd say at worst this is what it could be) but I've pointed out most likely it will even itself out.

charlieIRL

ok, i think we are making a mountain out of a molehill here.

bustercherry

bustercherry wrote: »

What happens if he casting a shadow on the putting lines? You can't read a putt through a shadow let alone putt, so he needs to move again.

It's utterly ridiculous to make a blanket statement the last person putting replacing the flag causes slow play. It's poor etiquette by the playing partners, which may happen a few times a round but not to the extreme extent of delaying around to 3 minutes (even though I'd say at worst this is what it could be) but I've pointed out most likely it will even itself out.

I don't get it - what happens if anyone is casting a shadow? People have to move around to get out of the way of any putt, what difference does it make if one has a flag in his or her hand?

And I'll make the other point - you could just man up and putt through the shadow! Unless it really matters it grinds my gears seeing amateurs getting angsty about such trivial things.

josie19

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't get it - what happens if anyone is casting a shadow? People have to move around to get out of the way of any putt, what difference does it make if one has a flag in his or her hand?

And I'll make the other point - you could just man up and putt through the shadow! Unless it really matters it grinds my gears seeing amateurs getting angsty about such trivial things.

A still shadow perhaps but not some eejit swaying !!

GreeBo

bustercherry wrote: »

So if he has to walk round to the opposite side of the green in the next players peripheral vision, casting shadows etc... The next player is held up, hence it's irrelevant they replace the flag as the slow play has already occurred.

Apply common sense.

Thats why you leave the flag somewhere sensible and not behind other peoples lines etc.

The closest guy take it out, often handing it to the 2nd guy after he putts or whomever finishes out first.
Super simple stuff really; with no need to descend to name calling or playing the "expect better from a Mod card".:rolleyes:

Seve OB

@bustercherry

To make the last guy to hole out, then go and fetch the flag and replace it IS slower than for someone else to have it ready to stick in the hole when the last ball drops. FACT.

We are discussing all possible ways to speed the game up. Sure you are right, it doesn't take long, but it doesn't take long to wait for the guy who has the honour, or it doesn't take long to wait for the guy who has just played his chip but is still away and it doesn't take long for the fool who left his bag on the wrong side of the green to go and get it. There are loads of other little things that don't take long. Fact is, this thread is a discussion on ways to speed up the game, and all these little things add up.

You are fighting a loosing battle here and so far there is nobody in your corner. You have no argument. GreeBo is right and you are wrong. End of

DuckSlice

bustercherry wrote: »

Makes zero difference to pace of play but I do it out or courtesy.

You are obviously one of those people!

DuckSlice

bustercherry wrote: »

It's largely irrelevant if you are keeping up with the pace of play anyway.

This whole thread is irrelevant if you are keeping up with pace of play.

Seve OB

etxp wrote: »

This whole thread is irrelevant if you are keeping up with pace of play.

Exactly as I already mentioned....... actually, gonna make it my signature now

bustercherry

stevieob wrote: »

@bustercherry

To make the last guy to hole out, then go and fetch the flag and replace it IS slower than for someone else to have it ready to stick in the hole when the last ball drops. FACT.

We are discussing all possible ways to speed the game up. Sure you are right, it doesn't take long, but it doesn't take long to wait for the guy who has the honour, or it doesn't take long to wait for the guy who has just played his chip but is still away and it doesn't take long for the fool who left his bag on the wrong side of the green to go and get it. There are loads of other little things that don't take long. Fact is, this thread is a discussion on ways to speed up the game, and all these little things add up.

You are fighting a loosing battle here and so far there is nobody in your corner. You have no argument. GreeBo is right and you are wrong. End of

So it's a fact because you say so? I've gave a couple of examples where moving around the green will slow down play. Also I've clarified the last player replacing the flag is usually the exception to the norm so the extreme example. Would you complain to the group in front because they made the last player putting replace the pin? I doubt it because most reasonable people would tell catch a grip. There are more serious issues causing slow play than this.

I'll give you a FACT, last weekend I took 26 stokes less (not that it matters) than one of my 3 ball. All this else being equal (in fact I'd say we play at the same pace) the only way to speed up is for that player to be better or to make courses easier for players of lesser ability. Golfgraffix has already identified how one club has done some analysis to see where the course is causing slow play. Carton done similar with the Monty with the 1st and 3rd holes which were particular bottlenecks. Fixating over who replace the pin will not speed up the game.

bustercherry

etxp wrote: »

You are obviously one of those people!

What people?