'Smart' Responses

Alf Veedersane

Worksforyou wrote: »

I had put the specific area but edited it because I didn't want to restrict any advice forthcoming. I take your point though. However, that doesn't explain the other posters, some of who have thousands of posts. I don't read these forums often but I've noticed it in plenty of other threads. Why post at all if you're have nothing helpful to add?

That's fair enough but, like I said, most people looking for somewhere to train have a much smaller area in mind.

But I think your thread would have been very different if you'd kicked off with the info you gave in Post #14.

Things get 'lost in translation' so tone is often misinterpreted and by the same token that you might think someone was being smart, they might have seen you as being overly vague.

Essien

Worksforyou wrote: »

I had put the specific area but edited it because I didn't want to restrict any advice forthcoming. I take your point though. However, that doesn't explain the other posters, some of who have thousands of posts. I don't read these forums often but I've noticed it in plenty of other threads. Why post at all if you're have nothing helpful to add?

There's absolutely nothing wrong with anything in that thread other than you not being clear enough initially.

The expensive gyms were mentioned before you gave a budget. Why should posters assume your budget is 80 when you're describing, as Hanley said, a premium service?

Budget is relative to the individual. If I went into the motors forum asking for recommendations on a new Mercedes, it's not unreasonable to assume my budget is higher than most, even if I suggest it's relatively low.

Doug Cartel

Worksforyou wrote: »

Why post at all if you're have nothing helpful to add?

Possibly because the forum doesn't actually revolve around answering beginners questions. (Though it sure looks like it sometimes.)

This is a place where people into health and fitness can chat with each other. A side effect of this is that quite a bit of the stuff they discuss will be helpful. However you can't demand that 100% of what they post be helpful. If the responses were abusive, or the volume of "smart" responses was drowning out the good posts, there would be a problem, but I don't think we are close to that at all. The posters are not being paid or anything; some are here to network and help promote their fitness business, but most are here just here for a bit of fun. If people feel they can't have a bit of fun here they'll just stop posting, and then you'll get no responses, smart or otherwise.

The charter says to be specific when asking for advice. You however chose to be vague. This made it difficult to help you, but some people chose to try anyway. You got three suggestions for places in the first page - I think that was pretty good going.

It's a two way street, the quality of the answers you get is proportional to the quality of the question you ask. You're also going to get some noise in any thread, that's just the way things are. If someone calls you a dick, then flag the post as abusive, but beyond that you have to accept that not every answer is going to be helpful.

Worksforyou

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

That's fair enough but, like I said, most people looking for somewhere to train have a much smaller area in mind.

But I think your thread would have been very different if you'd kicked off with the info you gave in Post #14.

Things get 'lost in translation' so tone is often misinterpreted and by the same token that you might think someone was being smart, they might have seen you as being overly vague.

Things can be misinterpreted but I can't see how being called a dick can be.

Worksforyou

Essien wrote: »

There's absolutely nothing wrong with anything in that thread other than you not being clear enough initially.

The expensive gyms were mentioned before you gave a budget. Why should posters assume your budget is 80 when you're describing, as Hanley said, a premium service?

Budget is relative to the individual. If I went into the motors forum asking for recommendations on a new Mercedes, it's not unreasonable to assume my budget is higher than most, even if I suggest it's relatively low.

I said my budget isn't that big in the very first post and i said all the crossfits I searched were expensive. I think that was very clear, 2 people then posted links to overpriced gyms, I thanked them but said I had a limited budget. What's difficult to understand about that? It was clear enough for Panda Turtle to understand.

Alf Veedersane

Worksforyou wrote: »

I thanked them but said I had a limited budget.

Well , you thanked one and said "same as above" to the other.

That same poster said you were being a dick and to some it was a bit of a dickish answer. It may not have been intended to be but it's not that big a leap for someone whose tone they don't know to think that was being a dismissive answer to your question.

Worksforyou

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Possibly because the forum doesn't actually revolve around answering beginners questions. (Though it sure looks like it sometimes.)

This is a place where people into health and fitness can chat with each other. A side effect of this is that quite a bit of the stuff they discuss will be helpful. However you can't demand that 100% of what they post be helpful. If the responses were abusive, or the volume of "smart" responses was drowning out the good posts, there would be a problem, but I don't think we are close to that at all. The posters are not being paid or anything; some are here to network and help promote their fitness business, but most are here just here for a bit of fun. If people feel they can't have a bit of fun here they'll just stop posting, and then you'll get no responses, smart or otherwise.

The charter says to be specific when asking for advice. You however chose to be vague. This made it difficult to help you, but some people chose to try anyway. You got three suggestions for places in the first page - I think that was pretty good going.

It's a two way street, the quality of the answers you get is proportional to the quality of the question you ask. You're also going to get some noise in any thread, that's just the way things are. If someone calls you a dick, then flag the post as abusive, but beyond that you have to accept that not every answer is going to be helpful.

If someone doesn't want to answer beginners questions then they don't have to, leave it to someone who wants to. What's difficult about that?

If you need more detail to answer a question then you can ask, 'can we have more detail please?'. You don't even have to say please. What's difficult about that?

When I gave more detail the people who gave all the 'smart' responses didn't have anything to say only call me a dick and thank the post that called me a dick. You say that's them just having some fun, then no wonder this thread has started.

Worksforyou

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Well , you thanked one and said "same as above" to the other.

That same poster said you were being a dick and to some it was a bit of a dickish answer. It may not have been intended to be but it's not that big a leap for someone whose tone they don't know to think that was being a dismissive answer to your question.

Same as above means the same thing as has been posted above. That being "Thanks but as I said in my op, I have a limited budget and their prices are far too high for me". How can you make the leap to where I'm being a dick?

Alf Veedersane

Worksforyou wrote: »

Same as above means the same thing as has been posted above. That being "Thanks but as I said in my op, I have a limited budget and their prices are far too high for me". How can you make the leap to where I'm being a dick?

It's easily interpreted as a dismissive answer.

Would have taken no extra effort to say 'thanks but it's too expensive' and then the poster who said you were being a dick might not have thought you were being a dick.

Anyway, this thread has become about your thread rather than a general one.

I think it's time for a forum group hug or something.



Something less lame, perhaps.

Oryx

I dont want this thread bogged down by nitty gritty arguments specific to one situation,Worksforyou, as that can tend to get a bit circular and not help. So rather than get into a back and forth about the minutiae of how your words were (mis)interpreted, can we keep the discussion more open please?

Worksforyou

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

It's easily interpreted as a dismissive answer.

Would have taken no extra effort to say 'thanks but it's too expensive' and then the poster who said you were being a dick might not have thought you were being a dick.

Anyway, this thread has become about your thread rather than a general one.

I think it's time for a forum group hug or something.



Something less lame, perhaps.

You're being dismissive of my post, stop being a dick!

Worksforyou

Oryx wrote: »

I dont want this thread bogged down by nitty gritty arguments specific to one situation,Worksforyou, as that can tend to get a bit circular and not help. So rather than get into a back and forth about the minutiae of how your words were (mis)interpreted, can we keep the discussion more open please?

Yeah sorry, it's an example of the attitude some posters have in general though. Especially one lad, I've read a few threads on this forum in searches and stuff looking for answers and this fella is obnoxious in nearly every post I've read. Anyway, sorry. I'll leave my complaints there.

Oryx

Worksforyou wrote: »

Yeah sorry, it's an example of the attitude some posters have in general though. Especially one lad, I've read a few threads on this forum in searches and stuff looking for answers and this fella is obnoxious in nearly every post I've read. Anyway, sorry. I'll leave my complaints there.

Thank you for not naming them.

At the risk of repeating myself about this, report offending posts. Otherwise we may not have seen them, or may not have picked up on a certain tone in it. I cant guarantee action will be taken in every case, but the situation will be examined in every case.

Worksforyou

Oryx wrote: »

Thank you for not naming them.

At the risk of repeating myself about this, report offending posts. Otherwise we may not have seen them, or may not have picked up on a certain tone in it. I cant guarantee action will be taken in every case, but the situation will be examined in every case.

Reporting is for touts. No, it's not that big of a deal, it's only a message forum but it's annoying searching threads that have the questions you want in them but only see responses from people who think answering a beginners question is beneath them. I think it was you who said something similar earlier in the thread. Just post nothing if you can't be helpful! What's wrong with doing that?

And yes, I wont name them but you and everyone else knows who I mean. Admit it.

Stench Blossoms

Worksforyou wrote: »

Reporting is for touts. No, it's not that big of a deal, it's only a message forum but it's annoying searching threads that have the questions you want in them but only see responses from people who think answering a beginners question is beneath them. I think it was you who said something similar earlier in the thread. Just post nothing if you can't be helpful! What's wrong with doing that?

And yes, I wont name them but you and everyone else knows who I mean. Admit it.

Reporting is for touts?

If you have a problem with something, report it. Don't make sly digs about people. It's extremely childish.

Sometimes I think people need to hear some 'real' answers which they may interpret as 'smart'. I class myself in this when I created my first thread here. I got a slap of reality and it was the slap I needed.

cloudatlas

The thread asking about taking up running should have been moved to the athletics forum. A lot of people on here are strength training buffs and frown on long distance running.

Alf Veedersane

cloudatlas wrote: »

The thread asking about taking up running should have been moved to the athletics forum. A lot of people on here are strength training buffs and frown on long distance running.

The thread was about someone relatively knew to runnign who wanted to understand the health and fitness benefits of what they had in mind. 3.5km at a time isn't long distance running so I don't think it was out of place here at all.

Worksforyou

Stench Blossoms wrote: »

Reporting is for touts?

If you have a problem with something, report it. Don't make sly digs about people. It's extremely childish.

Sometimes I think people need to hear some 'real' answers which they may interpret as 'smart'. I class myself in this when I created my first thread here. I got a slap of reality and it was the slap I needed.

Touting isn't looked upon favourably in Ireland and rightly so.

So you know who I'm talking about too then. Look it's not that big a deal, just people don't have to be a prick while giving 'real' answers. That's all.

cloudatlas

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

The thread was about someone relatively knew to runnign who wanted to understand the health and fitness benefits of what they had in mind. 3.5km at a time isn't long distance running so I don't think it was out of place here at all.

People who are building up to short/long distance running post on the athletics forum as well and they would know about the long term benefits. A lot of strength trainers I know frown on running as they lose gains etc...

Oryx

cloudatlas wrote: »

The thread asking about taking up running should have been moved to the athletics forum. A lot of people on here are strength training buffs and frown on long distance running.

I did that to one lately, and if you think the response here was harsh....

To be fair, the A/R forum get so many noob posts they are realistically tired of the same questions from new people who havent used the search function.

Stench Blossoms

Worksforyou wrote: »

Touting isn't looked upon favourably in Ireland and rightly so.

So you know who I'm talking about too then. Look it's not that big a deal, just people don't have to be a prick while giving 'real' answers. That's all.

No I don't know who you are talking about but I do know that any future threads you make I won't be offering advice.

There's no pleasing some people. Not happy unless they are spoon fed information without doing any research themselves.

Alf Veedersane

cloudatlas wrote: »

People who are building up to short/long distance running post on the athletics forum as well and they would know about the long term benefits. A lot of strength trainers I know frown on running as they lose gains etc...

Still plenty of people here who run recreationally and for a degree of fitness.

Also, you'd be surprised at the strong mofos who don't have a problem with running that post in this forum.

Worksforyou

Stench Blossoms wrote: »

No I don't know who you are talking about but I do know that any future threads you make I won't be offering advice.

There's no pleasing some people. Not happy unless they are spoon fed information without doing any research themselves.

I thanked you for your help on that thread, it just didn't suit what I was looking for.
Why the attitude?

cloudatlas

Oryx wrote: »

To be fair, the A/R forum get so many noob posts they are realistically tired of the same questions from new people who havent used the search function.

They seem like a pleasant bunch, here's recent example of a beginners thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057176023

On here the response would probably 'hur hur hur how long is a piece of string' or some snide rubbish.

Oryx

cloudatlas wrote: »

They seem like a pleasant bunch, here's recent example of a beginners thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057176023

On here the response would probably 'hur hur hur how long is a piece of string' or some snide rubbish.

Extremely unfair throwaway remark there.

This is the thread I sent over. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=89249215 as you can see, they have their moments too.

Alf Veedersane

cloudatlas wrote: »

On here the response would probably 'hur hur hur how long is a piece of string' or some snide rubbish.

I doubt it. There's plenty of context there for framing an answer.

Doug Cartel

cloudatlas wrote: »

The thread asking about taking up running should have been moved to the athletics forum. A lot of people on here are strength training buffs and frown on long distance running.

The issue with that thread was that the poster was asking in the title a very broad question in the title which would have best been answered by popping it into google and then reading the first article that comes back.

If they'd asked what the benefit of of weight lifting was or if they put it in the running forum, they'd get pretty much the same response.

When people tried to get the original poster to refine their question and figure out what information they were really looking for, third parties came making demands that everyone just answer the original question as posed.

weemcd

Far too many smart arse know it all replies to genuine questions in here tbh

the_shark

I wish Will Heffernan was here for this

cloudatlas

Oryx wrote: »

Extremely unfair throwaway remark there.

This is the thread I sent over. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=89249215 as you can see, they have their moments too.

Yes and as you can see a mod moved in pretty sharpish to tell those posters cop themselves on.

Femme_Fatale

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Are you actually looking for what the benefit of running is? Have you tried putting the question "what is the benefit of running" into google and looking at the results?

But... why have Boards forums at all so? You could say that in relation to any of the myriad of topics here. If people can google stuff about photography, why have a photography forum? A singing forum, a philosophy forum, health forums?

Mellor wrote: »

It's quite strange that some people who were initially complaining about smart answers have resorted to smart answers and little digs at other posters.

No it isn't.

Theresalwaysone wrote: »

I'm assuming you don't mean me. I don't think I've ever been rude or dismissive to anyone new here. Obvious trolls aside.

I also think I'd be fairly consistent with how I treat people here compared to real life.

Shur anyone could/would say that. Your comments about people being thin-skinned and "What do they do in real life?" were desperately sneering.

RidleyRider wrote: »

I said people are lazy and don't want to to anything for themselves.

Speak for yourself?

Worksforyou wrote: »

I wont name them but you and everyone else knows who I mean. Admit it.

Sure do. And it was the very same approach from them back in about 2008 when I frequented here more. People who repeatedly belittle others' questions obviously just do so in order to feel better about themselves.

Oryx

Lots of pointing out of issues there. Ok, what are your solutions?

Theresalwaysone

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Shur anyone could/would say that. Your comments about people being thin-skinned and "What do they do in real life?" were desperately sneering.

.

If, in real life, someone gives you a smart arse answer to a question that you want to know the answer too, what do you do? What do you think anyone should do?

LuckyLloyd

Poker forum déjà vu circa 2007 tbh. Every subject specific information forum experiences this. You will inevitably develop a core of settled regulars who have talked out things and developed a broad and fairly consistent understanding of the key aspects of the subject at hand. There will be slight eccentrics within that (kevpants arguing against HIIT for example) but in general the disagreements will centre on more advanced points - i.e. subject matter experts questioning aspects of general wisdom as a salve for more complex questions.

So:

- In the poker forum circa 2007 someone would get the hump when the response to their hand history question on what to do on the river was met with ‘fold preflop’. Someone would also come in and give a more detailed answer, but it wouldn’t make the curt response incorrect at the same time;
- In this case the OP has got fuller and more pleasant responses, but the reality is that ‘running 3.5kms a day consistently for a period will make you competent at running 3.5kms’ is still correct. We wouldn’t advise that to anyone as a beginner training program, so we shouldn’t necessarily be obliged to work backwards towards it;

Additionally, just as there was ‘cash game vs tournament’ arguments on the Poker forum we have our ‘lifting weights vs traditional cardio’ arguments on here. This thread is partly being used to air that argument. My position on that is if someone came in and said:

- My goal is to be the best runner over specific distance X I can be;
- My goal is to focus for a period on my aerobic cardiovascular endurance over all other considerations;

Then I do not believe they would be prescribed Starting Strength. However when most people’s goals are generally related to body composition and the supplement of sports specific requirements no, they don’t generally get prescribed lots of running or low intensity cardio. They get a focus on diet and strength training because it is more likely to take them where they want to go than anything else (so we believe anyway, broadly speaking, based on current available research and data).

There is no ‘solution’ that will be implemented here. It’s the nature of forum evolution when the subject field has lots of traditionally accepted yet incorrect information in the public domain. People just get tired. If you had full control of the functionality you could require a number of bolded words from the ‘Fitness; The Basics (Incl Diet & Nutrition)’ thread to be correctly entered by a poster starting their first thread on the forum. But even then people would just skim read to get the words.

Might be worth trying a ‘Beginner Questions Thread’ stickied at the top of the forum. Merge new threads in there when the question is basic and have a strict no tolerance policy on aggressive or sarcastic responses. Such a thread could possibly build into a great resource over time.

Doug Cartel

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

But... why have Boards forums at all so? You could say that in relation to any of the myriad of topics here. If people can google stuff about photography, why have a photography forum? A singing forum, a philosophy forum, health forums?

I think you have a very narrow, and slightly entitled, view of what is going on here. As I already said in this thread (you are reading the thread before you post aren't you?)

The forum doesn't actually revolve around answering beginners questions. (Though it sure looks like it sometimes.)

This is a place where people into health and fitness can chat with each other. A side effect of this is that quite a bit of the stuff they discuss will be helpful.

It's not a call center. People aren't here just to answer your questions. They're not here because they're getting paid, they're here because they want to chat about things. Sometimes they make bad posts, but you know, they're not employees, they are customers just like you. You can't write them up over every slip up they make.

That said, answering questions is one of the main activities here, so let's look at why you would ask a question here instead of google. Google is great for when you have a broad question that lots of people have asked before. Someone has probably written a nice article answering it, and these articles are usually a lot better than a hastily written forum post. If you have a more specific question though, you probably won't find the answer you're looking for and then it's time to hit the forums.

The main advantage of a forum is that you get a bit of back and fourth. People can help you narrow down what you're asking and explain any parts of the answer you're unsure about. For example in the "What's the benefit of running?" it looked a bit like the original poster didn't literally want to know what the benefit of running was, but if his plan to run x miles a day was a good one. The natural response to this is to find out what his goal is, as a plan can only be judged in context of its goals.

This is not something you could get out of google, as it wouldn't have the sense to ask you a follow up question. Great right? Unfortunately instead of letting people get on with helping the guy, other people complained about the responses he was getting, you jumped in and demanded that everyone just answer his first, vague question, and someone started a thread complaining about smart answers. The OP seemed happy enough with the responses, but that doesn't seem to matter to you guys.

Worksforyou

To the 2 long posts before this. It's simple really, if you don't like answering beginners questions then don't answer beginners questions. Leave it to someone who does want to answer. Is it too difficult for these people just to ignore threads they have nothing to offer in? Or, as was stated earlier, this is them having fun and if they're not allowed to ridicule newbies then they'll leave?

Alf Veedersane

As much as people should be trying to engage with people looking for some help, if you're going to post a question, you should try to help people to help you.

As someone said, half the battle is knowing what to ask and that can be difficult for a beginner. But it's not difficult to frame the question in a little context.

Doug Cartel

Worksforyou, earlier on you complained about mods not taking action when you were called names, yet when you were asked to report posts like this in future so and make the mods aware of them so they could take action, you made this response

Worksforyou wrote: »

Reporting is for touts.

and later you said:

Worksforyou wrote: »

Touting isn't looked upon favourably in Ireland and rightly so.

I'm going to take it from this that you are not actually interested in improving things and are just here because you've spotted a chance to stir up some bad feeling. Good luck with that, as I don't fee like taking part.

Worksforyou

I'm not trying to stir up some bad feeling, I'm will barely be ever on this forum. I'm just here currently because I'm joining a gym and was looking for advice. Hopefully this thread will be enough to encourage the 'experts' to ignore threads from now on if they have no advice to assist someone with, there shouldn't be need to report them.
You know there probably would be less beginner threads started if people had refrained from making smart arse comments in previous threads. When people put in a search, often the question they want answered is there but the only answer they see is someone trying to be funny.

thegreatiam

Stupid questions result in smart answers.

Ask better quality questions to get better quality answers

LaHaine

Sometimes stupid questions are how people learn.

I really dont get this. If its a stupid question in your opinion, then don't bother answering.

kevpants

If you want intelligent well laid out advice in the right tone ask the fecking question in the format in which you would like to be responded. Maybe mention you've done some research and would like first hand opinions from people with experience. Bring up things you've read and ask opinions on that.

If someone posts

What's the best way to lose weight

or

How do I make my belly smaller?

It's the equivalent of going to the Motors forum and asking

What's the best car?

or the Running forum and asking

How often should I run to get good?

Maybe it's the millenial generation who aren't used to communicating in any fashion whereby enough information would be relayed to need 2 fecking paragraphs.

It's SOOOOOO frustrating to be willing to give advice but knowing you'll need to ask 10 questions and tease basic information out of the person in order to try and formulate an answer.

If they were asking their doctor for advice surely they'd outline the complaint in full detail. Put some effort into asking for help and show the people who you are asking to take time to help you some respect.

cc87

I blame google! Type in anything and get thousands of answers, bound to find one you agree with

Mellor

Worksforyou wrote: »

It's simple really, if you don't like answering beginners questions then don't answer beginners questions. Leave it to someone who does want to answer.

LaHaine wrote: »

I really dont get this. If its a stupid question in your opinion, then don't bother answering.

It would be a lot easier if people could just ignore the posts and leave somebody see to catch it, except life isn't that convent. Most of the time, people who go through these threads regurgitating something they read, don't really know what they are talking about. And end up posting nonsense.

So the short answers aren't there just to be smart, they are there to counter the misinformation

Femme_Fatale

thegreatiam wrote: »

Stupid questions result in smart answers.

Ask better quality questions to get better quality answers

Explain how the question being referred to is a stupid question. Is it just that "stupid questions" are ones asked by those inferior plebs who aren't as knowledgeable as you?

Blacktie.

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Explain how the question being referred to is a stupid question.

Read Kevpants post above. It explains it pretty well.

Brian?

thegreatiam wrote: »

Stupid questions result in smart answers.

Ask better quality questions to get better quality answers

How about ignoring any question that you think is stupid. Or even better, tell the poster their question is difficult to answer because it's do vague. Call me crazy but I think we can all be polite and it won't kill us.

God help some of you if this is your attitude out in the real world.

Penny Tration

thegreatiam wrote: »

Stupid questions result in smart answers.

Ask better quality questions to get better quality answers

What defines stupid?

Another poster said asking something like 'how do I make my stomach smaller?' is a stupid question.

If it's stupid to you, don't reply. Why the need to reply with a smart arse comment?

Or, if you hate that a lot of new users ask a vague question, ask them some questions back.

'how do I get a smaller stomach? '

' Well, what do you weigh, what height are you, and tell us about your diet and exercise regime? '

And go from there.

Sometimes people post vague questions simply because they do not know what to ask.

I hurt my back a long time ago, and it still flares up regularly. If I were a complete noob, I'd ask

' What exercises will help with a sore back? '

Because I'm not a noob, I'd be inclined to ask for ideas for exercises (weighted and non weighted)that i could to to work on my core.

But if I asked the first question, what's the problem with asking me what is wrong with it, and what am I looking to achieve? It ends up being one extra post before you can go showing your experise. Big deal.

If you can't say anything nice or helpful, why bother posting?

I would like to add, though, that I find (I lurk a lot) the majority of regs in here to be very helpful.

Worksforyou

It seems some here have the attitude that it's their right to smack down other people if they think the question is silly. This is their forum and newbies need to be thought who has the guns around here!
I have received great help in the thread I started recently and I received the smart arse answers in the same thread. Maybe my questions were stupid (probably were) but how come some people could give me really helpful advice while others were anything but helpful? Both groups were reading the same questions.

Blacktie.

Worksforyou wrote: »

It seems some here have the attitude that it's their right to smack down other people if they think the question is silly. This is their forum and newbies need to be thought who has the guns around here!
I have received great help in the thread I started recently and I received the smart arse answers in the same thread. Maybe my questions were stupid (probably were) but how come some people could give me really helpful advice while others were anything but helpful? Both groups were reading the same questions.

The same reason as real life. People are different.