"Government is prepared for railway closures"

Hilly Bill

sdeire wrote: »

They've bought large numbers of new 22k that weren't needed - they're sitting in storage.

They've wasted money on new rolling stock when the MkIII were perfectly fit for purpose.

They've had huge investment but are cutting capacity on DART at peak times when extra capacity is needed.

They've spent god knows how much painting the commuter 29k's a green that will confuse grannies all over the place.

They could have upgraded lines with the cash instead.

I'm sure I'll think of more

Im sure that i asked Corktina but thanks for answering for him anyway
No they havent. They cut it at off peak.

They did.

sdanseo

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Im sure that i asked Corktina but thanks for answering for him anyway
No they havent. They cut it at off peak.

They did.

1. Debatable, a lot of services got cut that had capacity issues afterwards at times that might not be core rush hour but might still be considered high-load.

2. They upgraded lines with different cash. They could have upgraded them properly or upgraded more lines with THAT cash.

foggy_lad

end of the road wrote: »

rubbish, any attempts were pittyful and just lip service

According to disgruntled railway enthusiasts who keep comparing Irish railways with Europe when we don't have the same population density or other conditions necessary to make rail travel viable

no, you stopped listening because you don't like the fact that irish rail are incompetent and only run lines properly that they want to run and not the whole network, limerick waterford is an intercity route with large towns such as clonmell and so on, the reason people don't use the line, little services, no connections to anything, line speeds from the early 20th century, and the governments policy of doing everything to boost car ownership to get more road tax revenue.

Irish Rail would rather shut part of the network than see the whole network torn up. Waterford-Limk Jnctn is nothing more than an old victorian branch line which is not worth keeping open for the numbers in its catchment area who will use it. Bus Eireann have an excellent bus service between the two cities which more than caters for those who wish to travel.

no, they won't, but simply closing them won't solve anything either, it just lets irish rail off the hook to run down anything they don't wish to run, and it contracts the rail network further, it gets to a stage where keeping the rest open will be pointless

Irish rail did not run down any line! They provide services to meet demand and where representations are made they will try to increase services where it can be shown that doing so will increase usage.

slow, no connections, no nothing.

To provide connections with the ferries was never possible as doing so would double the cost of the service, Waterford-LJ has always had connections in LJ to Limerick and to Cork

when, the times have been laughable for years, speeds were never improved, and still no connections into anything.

Again it all comes down to costs, better track and passing loops take money which will/should only be spent where there is significant increases in passengers. If the areas are adequately served by buses there is little chance of passenger numbers increasing.

they could have solved that by removing or automating the level crossings which would have saved them more money in the long run, the extra shift was an excuse, they wanted to run the line down further.

Again all these upgrades cost millions which are not available without higher passenger numbers.

Please tell us why they wanted to run the line down further? tell us why you feel this railway want to close and stop running trains?

yeah, right, they removed services because its better then getting the finger out and actually doing something, irish rail have had ampel opportunity to save this and improve other lines, they didn't, so nobody is surprised few use this line, cutting services don't make a line "viable" they undermine a struggling line further.

Passenger numbers will be telling their own story of how well the line is doing. How could Irish Rail(or any company) save any line which has no passengers worth mentioning and is unlikely to ever get more passengers?

because the trains are to slow and theirs no connections into anything,

See above.

they just use the car instead because they have a bad image or a long memory of the days of very rubbish public transport.

Why shouldn't people use their cars when it is only a small fraction of the cost of taking the train and a lot more flexible as far as times and journey alterations go.

again, because they did nothing to improve it and left it to rot, they deliberately ran this down as a passenger service, except people saw through their actions hense the passenger service still exists for now.

The passenger service still exists because it gets votes but it costs the company much more than they can afford to waste on it. The people in this area are the same as those calling for the WRC to be extended to Sligo, they want it al but are not prepared to use it or pay for it! In many countries local taxes are used to pay for railways, Maybe that should be trialled here?

not at all, irish rail don't deserve to be able to close lines

So let these lines destroy rail travel in Ireland rather than closing them?

yeah, because of government policy and long memories of shoddy public transport, and how do you know theirs nothing can be done? it may be to late now, but it could have been done if the will was there which it wasn't.

Saying it a thousand times won't make the points valid, why would Irish rail want to run the railways down to closure? what proof have you got that anyone within Irish Rail or CIE wants to close the railways?

unfortunately for lines like Waterford/Rosslare-Limerick Junction and the WRC it is far too late to rescue them as these lines are on old allignments which have not got the required passenger numbers to support even a daily train. There is nothing that could have been done to change this apart from ripping the track up and running them through areas with much higher populations.

what much more flexible services, how do you know their catered for much better by these bus services? maybe their infact not and have no other choice, just because a bus service is frequent doesn't mean it always goes where one wants to go, busses may be flexible but that doesn't mean the routes they operate are, just because busses exist is no good reason not to have railways where they exist, i know if my railway closed i wouldn't be getting the bus, i'd either stay at home or get a lift.

http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1389355938-055.pdf

8 buses a day each way and look at all those stops, it shadows the train only does the journey a lot quieter and faster.

yeah, and they will do nothing, solve nothing, and save nothing

Closures might just keep the railway going for another decade or two.

oh dear god, what savings, the money will be swallowed up most probably, lets go back to the 60s, "the savings made will provide some stability and security to the rest of the railway network and staff" yet 40 years later were talking about more closures, closures don't save the rail network, yet you come out with the same nonsense that has been proven to fail, time to except that policy has failed and try again

We have different opinions on what has caused the many problems for the railways and I respect that but unless you can show where money is being "swallowed up" you should not make such accusations.

As stated by the minister Irish rail are currently getting half of the subsidy available for all three transport companies but they carry less than 15% of the passengers, This can not continue, if savings can be made by closing lines which are carrying few if any passengers then that money can be used to keep the company operating for the foreseeable future.

hfallada

Irish rail needs a complete overhaul. What is their unique selling point? At the moment nothing really. Buses are so much cheaper and just slightly slower or on non stop buses the same time. There is little reason to take the train. It's slightly more comfortable but it doesn't justify the price difference at all.

Irish rail needs cut out the ****ty stations and cut journey times. It also consider restricting travel passes to non peak times eg mid day midweek.

SpaceTime

For the intercity services the problem is pretty simple : bad tracks and unsophisticated, relatively low-tech signalling is limiting the speeds.

They should be aiming to at least get the 100mph capable 22000s and MK4 actually running at 100mph.

Even on the Cork-Dublin line that's not possible at present other than for a small % of it.

Cork-Dublin is 266 km by rail according to Wiki. So, at 200km/h it should be possible in under two hours!

However, even at 160km/h (current train setup) about 2 hours (and that's allowing 20 mins for stops/starts acceleration etc etc, not just taking the max speed)

end of the road

foggy_lad wrote: »

According to disgruntled railway enthusiasts who keep comparing Irish railways with Europe when we don't have the same population density or other conditions necessary to make rail travel viable

who compared irish railways with europe? nobody did

foggy_lad wrote: »

Irish Rail would rather shut part of the network than see the whole network torn up.

we tried taring up railways, it failed to do anything, same as doing the same now will fail, if irish rail really really cares we'd have a railway fit for the 21st century, we wouldn't have people crammed into short trains at times either during a little before or after peak hours, what we have is trains running a little faster or a little slower then a bus, a bus, we had a better public transport system 100 years ago.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Waterford-Limk Jnctn is nothing more than an old victorian branch line which is not worth keeping open for the numbers in its catchment area who will use it.

its a main intercity line, its worth keeping

foggy_lad wrote: »

Bus Eireann have an excellent bus service between the two cities which more than caters for those who wish to travel.

how do you know its excellent, and how do you know it caters for those who wish to travel? how do you know they aren't using it because of lack of choice.

foggy_lad wrote: »

They provide services to meet demand

tell that to those crushed on to short darts or short trains on waterford for example, yeah, thats providing services to meet demand isn't it

foggy_lad wrote: »

where representations are made they will try to increase services where it can be shown that doing so will increase usage.

really? and no, the system in relation to timetables doesn't seem to fit what your talking about

foggy_lad wrote: »

To provide connections with the ferries was never possible as doing so would double the cost of the service

it was possible, but it stopped, how would it double the cost of the service

foggy_lad wrote: »

Waterford-LJ has always had connections in LJ to Limerick and to Cork

yeah, you have to wait a rather long time it seems, thats hardly useful to people.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Again it all comes down to costs, better track and passing loops take money which will/should only be spent where there is significant increases in passengers.

how can passengers increase if the line is to slow, you have to improve the service to get the passengers, i'd bet you would spend the money on the bus network even if it got nobody though wouldn't you

foggy_lad wrote: »

If the areas are adequately served by buses there is little chance of passenger numbers increasing.

who says their adequately served by busses, maybe people use the bus because they have no other option, that can be the case, not everyone thinks busses are fantastic, some only use them out of necessity, theirs no chance of passengers increasing because journey times are to slow on the line, busses aren't a good reason not to invest in railways, to me and from my experience their a backward low grade form of transport and should not be the main stay of long distance public transport at the expence of everything else, they can and should be a part of an integrated public transport network but as a lown form or a complete replacement to railways to me and from my experience their pointless, may as well use a car.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Again all these upgrades cost millions which are not available without higher passenger numbers.

higher passenger numbers doesn't make money availible, its either there or it isn't, if we could afford to over speck our motor ways then we could have well afforded to bring the railway into the 21st century, as part of that integrated public transport network

foggy_lad wrote: »

How could Irish Rail(or any company) save any line which has no passengers worth mentioning and is unlikely to ever get more passengers?

how do you know its unlikely to get more passengers? improve the service, closing it will do nothing, save nothing, will be pointless, only so much closures can happen until you have nothing

foggy_lad wrote: »

Why shouldn't people use their cars when it is only a small fraction of the cost of taking the train and a lot more flexible as far as times and journey alterations go.

who said they shouldn't and couldn't use a car? why should i be left with only a bus as an option for public transport is a better question.

foggy_lad wrote: »

The passenger service still exists because it gets votes

no, because it provides a useful service to some, worth every penny.

foggy_lad wrote: »

but it costs the company much more than they can afford to waste on it.

their not wasting anything on it, its money well spent, running a railway costs money which is money well spent.

foggy_lad wrote: »

The people in this area are the same as those calling for the WRC to be extended to Sligo

are they?

foggy_lad wrote: »

they want it al but are not prepared to use it or pay for it!

oh?

foggy_lad wrote: »

In many countries local taxes are used to pay for railways, Maybe that should be trialled here?

isn't that not what the property tax is supposed to be for

foggy_lad wrote: »

So let these lines destroy rail travel in Ireland rather than closing them?

they won't destroy rail travel, how will they, its the government strangle hold and lack of vision that will destroy rail travel, not an intercity line that was left to its own devices to slowly die

foggy_lad wrote: »

unfortunately for lines like Waterford/Rosslare-Limerick Junction and the WRC it is far too late to rescue them as these lines are on old allignments which have not got the required passenger numbers to support even a daily train.
they have enough passengers to support a good service on the line, if it had been brought into the 21st century with good speeds good journey times and a short wait for connections, could have been done when we had the money, the WRC is irrelevant to this discussion as we all agree the way it was built was a mistake

foggy_lad wrote: »

There is nothing that could have been done to change this apart from ripping the track up and running them through areas with much higher populations.

wrong, speeds improved, journey times improved, removal or automating of level crossings, would have gone a long way

foggy_lad wrote: »

8 buses a day each way and look at all those stops, it shadows the train only does the journey a lot quieter and faster.

not a lot faster, infact apparently its a lot slower then the train, and a lot quieter? no, no bus is as quiet as the 22000 railcars, what it does prove though is the market is there and the passengers are there to support a rail service if it was ever invested in and improved.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Closures might just keep the railway going for another decade or two.

jesus, another decade? that all, so closures would be pointless then? thought so.

foggy_lad wrote: »

if savings can be made by closing lines which are carrying few if any passengers then that money can be used to keep the company operating for the foreseeable future.

a few minutes ago it was another decade, now its the foreseeable future. make up your mind

corktina

hfallada wrote: »

Irish rail needs a complete overhaul. What is their unique selling point? At the moment nothing really. Buses are so much cheaper and just slightly slower or on non stop buses the same time. There is little reason to take the train. It's slightly more comfortable but it doesn't justify the price difference at all.

Irish rail needs cut out the ****ty stations and cut journey times. It also consider restricting travel passes to non peak times eg mid day midweek.

That won't work. Ireland's railways to a large extent are there to ferry people into the Cities (City in reality) from the smaller outlying towns. Few people travel end to end compared to those joining en route.

foggy_lad

@end of the road. There is little point going over and over stating the same incorrect points about how Irish rail have mismanaged and want to close all railway lines etc and how the government policy is led by quarry owners and road builders and bus companies etc.

The facts are clear for all to see, at least three lines need to close because they are not being used and even if they were used by those in the catchment areas there are still not enough people to make these services viable not even as a public service!

Look at the wrc, when they halved the fares there was only a tiny increase in use.

Waterford to LJ is being used even less and then stations along the line are falling down! Clonmel station was closed several times in the last few years because the roof is collapsing, the cafe there was worst affected. The old line needs stations and faster line speeds but above all it needs to show that there is a need which it has not done for decades! The beet and other freight are gone and the line should have followed closely.

Judgement Day

I note, as usual, bk sagely thanks any anti-railway post - might I be as bold as to ask about his knowledge/useage of the Waterford/Limerick Junction line? Surely you can't be basing your opinions on foggy_lad's ramblings? :rolleyes:

corktina

There are two choices really for lines like the Clonmel line....modernise the level crossings ,reduce the costs and improve the service or save money for use elsewhere and close them down. We have no money for the first option and even if we did, there are better investments for that money elsewhere. It's sad to see lines close, and as an Enthusiast I like them all retained, but there has to be a business case for their retention and I can't see it!

Judgement Day

corktina wrote: »

There are two choices really for lines like the Clonmel line....modernise the level crossings ,reduce the costs and improve the service or save money for use elsewhere and close them down. We have no money for the first option and even if we did, there are better investments for that money elsewhere. It's sad to see lines close, and as an Enthusiast I like them all retained, but there has to be a business case for their retention and I can't see it!

I'm sorry, but you really don't get it do you? Every since the dawn of CIE it has been continuous retrenchment -an unending retreat from rural Ireland. Just one more closure and the railways will be saved. Discuss....

corktina

Well, you could turn that on it's head and say that no-hoper loss making lines threaten the rest of the system. Just look at you favourite Rosslare line, closed to provide resources to re-open another white elephant line.

You should cease to look at Railways as an inter-dependant network and start looking at what Rail does best and concentrate on that. That means Commuter (where any subsidy ha a beneficial effect that extends into the wider community through traffic easement etc) and InterCity which is the one area where Rail really should be best option

Banjoxed

Judgement Day wrote: »

I'm sorry, but you really don't get it do you? Every since the dawn of CIE it has been continuous retrenchment -an unending retreat from rural Ireland. Just one more closure and the railways will be saved. Discuss....

Indeed. It rings as far true as Leo's horseshyte about loving railways. The late Garret used to ramble on about being into railways but he did his damnedest to scupper them when in power and I would love to see the money trail around his campaign against the tramways in Dublin.

foggy_lad

Judgement Day wrote: »

I'm sorry, but you really don't get it do you? Every since the dawn of CIE it has been continuous retrenchment -an unending retreat from rural Ireland. Just one more closure and the railways will be saved. Discuss....

Rural Ireland was well served in the days of the local lord and lady owning their own branch line and paying their serfs/local navvies and labourers tuppence a ten hour day six days a week to fix the lines, cut the ditches back, load coal, clean out the ash pan, load the trunks onto the guards van, and break stones etc nowadays thankfully people expect to be paid for their work and services. There are less people living in rural Ireland to use trains and more and more of those people have far better conditions than their grandparents and have many more alternatives to their grandparents! Many have access to cars and where there is still an element of poverty the bus is a reasonable option. In fact cars and buses are not even as important because while years ago people went on major shopping trips twice yearly to Dublin or Cork now they can get the same shops in the local large town! That leaves lines like Nenagh and Clonmel without passengers and without a future!

Judgement Day

foggy what's your problem with railways, did you not have a trainset like Leo?

foggy_lad

Judgement Day wrote: »

foggy what's your problem with railways, did you not have a trainset like Leo?

I love trains, the bigger and noisier the better! Also like the 22000s etc, life is not just loco's.

What I can't stand is people crying about how a company are mismanaging and wasting millions without giving evidence of this, but the same people scream loudest when proper rationalisation and cost savings are proposed where needed to protect the core services.

Some people feel that lines should be kept open despite there being no money for this and they will blame anyone except the "missing" passengers who have deserted and doomed the lines to closure.


If Irish rail/CIE are so bad surely some other company would have been given the reins to do the job right, truth is that the railways in Ireland are untouchable because everyone wants the cork and link lines and Dublin/portlaoise commuter but nobody will take these lines on because they will be forced to keep the rest open too!

TheBandicoot

NTA given(by IE) list of rail services to consider for closure.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/nta-given-list-of-rail-services-to-consider-for-closure-30154511.html

An in-depth review of all services across the rail network is also under way, which could result in some lines being closed.

They include Limerick Junction to Waterford, and Limerick to Ballybrophy in Co Laois, which carried a combined 55,000 passengers last year.

Decision in about a month.

Judgement Day

foggy_lad wrote: »

I love trains, the bigger and noisier the better! Also like the 22000s etc, life is not just loco's.

What I can't stand is people crying about how a company are mismanaging and wasting millions without giving evidence of this, but the same people scream loudest when proper rationalisation and cost savings are proposed where needed to protect the core services.

Some people feel that lines should be kept open despite there being no money for this and they will blame anyone except the "missing" passengers who have deserted and doomed the lines to closure.


If Irish rail/CIE are so bad surely some other company would have been given the reins to do the job right, truth is that the railways in Ireland are untouchable because everyone wants the cork and link lines and Dublin/portlaoise commuter but nobody will take these lines on because they will be forced to keep the rest open too!

There's been plenty of evidence given about wastage in this and other threads - premature scrapping of the MkIIIs, the 201 debacle, the 22000s while being comfy are unfit for purpose. Nobody else has ever been given a chance to run the railways since CIE came into being and it's long overdue to be replaced. Forget about new logos and liveries, what's needed now is totaly new management and staff who believe in their product and are incentivised to make it work.

Copyerselveson

I think these recent pronouncements from Varadkar are really a shot across the bows to the Irish Rail unions about how far he is prepared to go to cut costs in Irish Rail rather than an actual statement of intent.

But Irish Rail is in a financial crisis, partly due to the ongoing cut in subvention from the government, so Varadkar has to take some responsibility.

However to save money and build up rail traffic there is a case to be made for the complete separation of the track and infrastructure from the railway services side. I would prefer to see freight run directly by IWS/DFDS/Tara Mines etc, and for the passenger services to be run by the likes of DB or even Translink. No cherry picked franchises like the UK. Ireland really needs a ScotRail or ArrivaTrains Wales equivalent. Politically I like the idea of Translink taking over the rail services. They do a good job in NI in my opinion.

If the government is really serious about cutting costs and getting passengers back onto the railways then unfortunately some money must be spent on getting the track and infrastructure up to scratch. I would eliminate all TSRs at accomodation crossings. It's a live railway, people should take care and attention when crossing. Better still close the accomodation crossings where possible.

We can hear all the talk about the €103 million spent on Ennis-Athenry but that is really chicken feed compared to the billions spent on Motorways. Ennis-Athenry is by no means the worst performing railway line, the sparsely timetabled North and South Tipp lines are but the South Tipp line in particular has suffered from shockingly bad timetabling for years. Really that line should be open from Rosslare to Galway to capture the backpacker market.

The status quo is no longer an option. We need imaginative thinking and a can-do attitude on the railways.

Can't do won't do.

SpaceTime

Judgement Day wrote: »

There's been plenty of evidence given about wastage in this and other threads - premature scrapping of the MkIIIs, the 201 debacle, the 22000s while being comfy are unfit for purpose. Nobody else has ever been given a chance to run the railways since CIE came into being and it's long overdue to be replaced. Forget about new logos and liveries, what's needed now is totaly new management and staff who believe in their product and are incentivised to make it work.

I agree with you, but with regard to the 22000s
I wouldn't go as far as saying they're not fit for purpose.
They're unambitious though in terms of top speed.

The key thing that needs to be done now is to get the tracks and signalling into a state where the 22000s can at least get up to 90-100mph for most of a journey. That would actually make a huge impact on journey times.

There was also some kind of weird specification of track used here in the recent past which caused issues. I don't know the exact details of it but it seemed IE used some kind of lower spec than most other railways in Europe who were aiming for high-speed operation.

Someone who knows more about this stuff might be able to explain it better than I can!

relaxed

foggy_lad wrote: »

Look at the wrc, when they halved the fares there was only a tiny increase in use.

Its been closed since shortly after the new fares were introduced so that's not helping, and I fear whatever patronage was there may be evaporated by the time the line reopens.

As regards closing Ennis - Athenry I am not sure what significant operational saving will be achieved, given the infrastructure is new and automated, I don't think there is a huge saving, with proper rostering of drivers and trains then it shouldn't be hugely expensive to operate. Its only 36 miles.

Prior to Ennis - Athenry opening the first and last trains between Ennis and Limerick ran out of service for positioning, now they can depart later and run through to Limerick and Galway, so wear and tear, fuel and driver costs are probably on a par to before.

The stations at Craughwell and Ardrahan should be closed until there is underlying demand for a service.

end of the road

foggy_lad wrote: »

@end of the road. There is little point going over and over stating the same incorrect points about how Irish rail have mismanaged

oh dear god, irish rail have miss managed, they got a good amount of funding over the years and all we have to show for it is new trains, new trains which the likes of rosslare and sligo don't have full access to, carriges only capible of 100 MPH or carriges which can't do any more then 100 MPH because we don't have the right locos or power cars to operate with them, barely improved speeds, still lots and lots of level crossings and other types of crossings that could be removed, scrapping of perfectly good rolling stock, storing of modern DMUS which will most likely be scrapped, a bunch of fantastic powerful locomotives in storage which will probably never run again, and you tell me that the idea of irish rail miss managing is incorrect? you see foggy, one minute your criticising irish rail, next thing your making out how their a perfect company who the world should look to to see how a railway is run, make up your mind.

foggy_lad wrote: »

the government policy is led by quarry owners and road builders and bus companies etc.

road builders and road hauliers have a lot of power in this country, way to much.

foggy_lad wrote: »

The facts are clear for all to see, at least three lines need to close because they are not being used and even if they were used by those in the catchment areas there are still not enough people to make these services viable not even as a public service!

wrong, the 8 busses a day you posted about suggests to me their is a market for a good improved passenger rail service between these citties
a day Look at the wrc, when they halved the fares there was only a tiny increase in use.[/QUOTE]
what does the WRC have to do with this, its an irrelevant mistake, stop bringing it up to further your agenda.
a day Waterford to LJ is being used even less and then stations along the line are falling down! Clonmel station was closed several times in the last few years because the roof is collapsing, the cafe there was worst affected.[/QUOTE]
thats up to irish rail to look after the buildings, they could also try renting some of them out to small businesses, the line is used less because of lack of services, slow services that connect into nothing, the towns on the line could easily support a service, to late now? maybe, but it could have been and should have been done.
a day The old line needs stations and faster line speeds but above all it needs to show that there is a need which it has not done for decades![/QUOTE]
lack of services and slow speeds and long journey times,
a day The beet and other freight are gone and the line should have followed closely.[/QUOTE]
no it shouldn't, its an intercity line that should have been invested in and brought up to the same standards as the rest

end of the road

corktina wrote: »

There are two choices really for lines like the Clonmel line....modernise the level crossings ,reduce the costs and improve the service or save money for use elsewhere and close them down. We have no money for the first option and even if we did, there are better investments for that money elsewhere.

no, theirs not, all the investments in our intercity lines like this, to galway, cork, belfast, are equal

corktina wrote: »

It's sad to see lines close, and as an Enthusiast I like them all retained, but there has to be a business case for their retention and I can't see it!

its an intercity line, the market is there, the money was there, irish rail don't deserve to get out of running this line and i hope the local politicians make it as difficult for varadkar to do anything, whatever the cost, varadkar must be stopped by whatever means necessary

corktina

the eight buses presumably don't involve a change part way, and probably have stops on the way in and out of the Cities, not to mention serving places with no railway station en route, like Mooncoin for instance. (Just a guess....)

EurasiaEndtoEnd

Cork guy living in Tokyo for a long time here. I live in the land of trains and seamless public transport. But if you travel out of the big cities and go to Japan's northernmost island, Hokkaido, which is almost the same as Ireland in area and population, you can find railway line closures and massive dependence on cars.

The truth is that the island of Ireland has two sizeable cities in Greater Dublin and Greater Belfast with maybe 1.75 and 1.25 million people respectively. If I am out by a few hundred thousand people, it makes no material difference. The rest of Ireland is extremely low density by international standards and therefore perfectly suited for cars.

The sad fact is that my hometown of Cork can't even get a good bus service going and over the years people have fled to their cars. Leo Varadkar talks sense and Dublin should get its Underground Dart, rail to the airport (preferably linked to long-distance rail too) and more trams.

MC

corktina

end of the road wrote: »

no, theirs not, all the investments in our intercity lines like this, to galway, cork, belfast, are equal

its an intercity line, the market is there, the money was there, irish rail don't deserve to get out of running this line and i hope the local politicians make it as difficult for varadkar to do anything, whatever the cost, varadkar must be stopped by whatever means necessary

It's not an Intercity line. Limerick Junction is not a City. Just because a line runs from one city to another doesn't mean that the rail service is Intercity. The money isn't there because in terms of investment desirability , this line is way down the pecking order. Sad but true

end of the road

corktina wrote: »

It's not an Intercity line.

yes it is

corktina wrote: »

It'Limerick Junction is not a City.

but limerick is, which the line really runs to, as the line is the rosslare limerick line, now that rosslare waterford was taken from the people of south wexford, the line now technically runs between to citties, even though the trains don't run as far as the city, anyway i won't go round in circles about it.

corktina wrote: »

It'Just because a line runs from one city to another doesn't mean that the rail service is Intercity.

well the service certainly isn't intercity service on this line

corktina wrote: »

It'The money isn't there because in terms of investment desirability , this line is way down the pecking order.

so is much of the network, the money was there

jackofalltrades

Copyerselveson wrote: »

We can hear all the talk about the €103 million spent on Ennis-Athenry but that is really chicken feed compared to the billions spent on Motorways.

Or the billions spend on rail subsidies/infrastructure.
Spending billions on motorways isn't a licence to throw economic reasoning to the wind and spend money like you please elsewhere.
Routes still have to have a minimum level of viability.

There's also the opportunity cost to consider.
What if that money had been spent increasing the speed on more viable services eg. Dublin - Cork/Dublin - Belfast.
Which would help protect against competition from Bus operators.

steamengine

The cynic might say that things were let go by default, leaving the barn door wide open for the bus operators, and the bus operator in pole position couldn't even make it through the door first. Then again I'm not a cynic or am I?

Banjoxed

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Or the billions spend on rail subsidies/infrastructure..

To use a technical term, you are talking dung, unless you can show us the alleged "billions" spent on the railways that hitherto haven't been apparent. The bill for Luas came in at around 750m.

In the meantime, we're chucking 8m p.a. in shortfall tolls to the operators of the M3 and the Limerick tunnel. Let that sink in for a moment.

corktina

end of the road wrote: »

yes it is

but limerick is, which the line really runs to, as the line is the rosslare limerick line, now that rosslare waterford was taken from the people of south wexford, the line now technically runs between to citties, even though the trains don't run as far as the city, anyway i won't go round in circles about it.

well the service certainly isn't intercity service on this line

so is much of the network, the money was there

Running between cities doesn't make it an Inter City line.

The money was never there, we just borrowed it and we still are.

end of the road

corktina wrote: »

Running between cities doesn't make it an Inter City line.

well it depends on ones definition of "intercity" in my opinion running between 2 citties is the definition of intercity

metrostation

EurasiaEndtoEnd wrote: »

Cork guy living in Tokyo for a long time here. I live in the land of trains and seamless public transport. But if you travel out of the big cities and go to Japan's northernmost island, Hokkaido, which is almost the same as Ireland in area and population, you can find railway line closures and massive dependence on cars.

The truth is that the island of Ireland has two sizeable cities in Greater Dublin and Greater Belfast with maybe 1.75 and 1.25 million people respectively. If I am out by a few hundred thousand people, it makes no material difference. The rest of Ireland is extremely low density by international standards and therefore perfectly suited for cars.

The sad fact is that my hometown of Cork can't even get a good bus service going and over the years people have fled to their cars. Leo Varadkar talks sense and Dublin should get its Underground Dart, rail to the airport (preferably linked to long-distance rail too) and more trams.

MC

In Japan they invest heavily in their railway infrastructure, and there are plans afoot to invest more into the future, including the island of Hokkaido.It may not have got the same funding as other parts of the country in the past but this was due to other issues such as an aging population, lack of tourism and geographical issues.

The sad reality is that we still have a third world railway network which lacks way behind most other western countries and whose capital city does not even have a metro network or airport railway link. Leo Varadkar has been pressurised into finally looking at investing into a dart underground project in order to keep the beurocrats in Brussels happy, and I would imagine they would not be happy to hear of his proposal to close down railway lines and investing in gas guzzling buses.

end of the road

metrostation wrote: »

In Japan they invest heavily in their railway infrastructure, and there are plans afoot to invest more into the future, including the island of Hokkaido.It may not have got the same funding as other parts of the country in the past but this was due to other issues such as an aging population, lack of tourism and geographical issues.

The sad reality is that we still have a third world railway network which lacks way behind most other western countries and whose capital city does not even have a metro network or airport railway link. Leo Varadkar has been pressurised into finally looking at investing into a dart underground project in order to keep the beurocrats in Brussels happy, and I would imagine they would not be happy to hear of his proposal to close down railway lines and investing in gas guzzling buses.

these uncomfortable gas guzzling busses should only be able to operate from towns without a railway to a rail head, bus and truck companies should have their road tax based on the weight of their vehicle to pay toards the higher ware and tare they cause

corktina

end of the road wrote: »

well it depends on ones definition of "intercity" in my opinion running between 2 citties is the definition of intercity

do you understand there is a difference between Inter City and inter-city? I'm sure you do, but it doesn't fit in with your circular argument.

corktina

end of the road wrote: »

these uncomfortable gas guzzling busses should only be able to operate from towns without a railway to a rail head, bus and truck companies should have their road tax based on the weight of their vehicle to pay toards the higher ware and tare they cause

It's Motor Tax and it's nothing to do with roads and the wear and tear thereof.

jackofalltrades

Banjoxed wrote: »

To use a technical term, you are talking dung, unless you can show us the alleged "billions" spent on the railways that hitherto haven't been apparent. The bill for Luas came in at around 750m.

From this NTA report.
Subsidy from (2001 - 2012) is roughly €2 billion, using a roughly similar time-frame to the majority of our intercity motorway network construction.
Add the LUAS construction and you're up to €2.75 billion.

If you want to disagree with me that fine, but I think you can do it without saying I'm talking sh*t.

monument

Luas is at around €1.5bn.

You'll find only a small percentage of the Dublin population who thinks it was not worth it.

Estimate includes BXD, past extensions, original costs, depot expansion, platform and tram extensions, etc.

Estimate thanks to Victor.

LoonyLovegood

Politics have ruined the railways. I do the return Galway - Dublin trip roughly every week or so. In my purse right now (because I'm awful for getting rid of train tickets), I have tickets with the cumulative worth of €132. That represents six round trips I've taken on the line. Off the top of my head - and I may be wrong, and I'll admit that now - I can count three trains (out of twelve) that arrived on time to the destination. Probably another seven or eight were within ten minutes late, and one or two were more than ten minutes late (including a memorable one that I'm currently fighting a losing battle with IÉ about, but that's besides the point).

I like the train. It's comfortable, it has plugs and (sometimes) working wifi, and I get to people watch at different stations, and see some gorgeous scenery from the midlands. But I can afford it, because I'm a student and I don't have to pay the €50 or so for a return ticket if you walk up at the station, as I do. The trains I get, usually Friday afternoon and Sunday afternoon, are always packed, largely because of returning students.

I'd like to know if those trains make a profit or even break even. Take it as an average, each carriage with approx 50 people in it at €11 (one way), five carriages in an average train. That's €2750 to operate a train for an average of 2hrs20, travelling around 225km (According to my rough google maps calculations, if someone has more accurate information, I'd appreciate it.)

That gives you €12.22 per kilometre. Would it cost that much per km to run the trains? I know these are really rough calculations - a lot of the students would get off in Athlone or Tullamore, although tickets to these are the same price - but how would it work out?

I think they're going to have to close the WRC (Which should never have been built), Limerick - Ballybrophy and/or Limerick - Waterford. The WRC was a waste of money. It was (according to wikipedia) €106.5m. That money could probably have almost double tracked Dublin - Galway. The stretch between Portarlington and Athlone is at maximum capacity. That stretch could have done with the investment more than a political posturing excercise by the government of the time.

Morf

metrostation wrote: »

In Japan they invest heavily in their railway infrastructure, and there are plans afoot to invest more into the future, including the island of Hokkaido.It may not have got the same funding as other parts of the country in the past but this was due to other issues such as an aging population, lack of tourism and geographical issues.

The sad reality is that we still have a third world railway network which lacks way behind most other western countries and whose capital city does not even have a metro network or airport railway link. Leo Varadkar has been pressurised into finally looking at investing into a dart underground project in order to keep the beurocrats in Brussels happy, and I would imagine they would not be happy to hear of his proposal to close down railway lines and investing in gas guzzling buses.

Japan are massively in-debt and their solution every time (Winter Olympics/World Cup with S. Korea/World Athletics Championship and so on) is to throw money at infrastructure to stimulate the economy. After 20+ years of stagnant growth in the economy with only meagre enough growth in the last 18 months or so it's hardly a ideal blueprint to follow for public transport.

SpaceTime

metrostation wrote: »

In Japan they invest heavily in their railway infrastructure, and there are plans afoot to invest more into the future, including the island of Hokkaido.It may not have got the same funding as other parts of the country in the past but this was due to other issues such as an aging population, lack of tourism and geographical issues.

The sad reality is that we still have a third world railway network which lacks way behind most other western countries and whose capital city does not even have a metro network or airport railway link. Leo Varadkar has been pressurised into finally looking at investing into a dart underground project in order to keep the beurocrats in Brussels happy, and I would imagine they would not be happy to hear of his proposal to close down railway lines and investing in gas guzzling buses.

I wish people would stop using the 3rd world terminology totally inappropriately. It's not a wonderful network but I suspect you've never actually encountered an actual third world piece of infrastructure.

Irish railways is a sparse, slow but very much 1st world system that is more like what you'd expect to find in parts of the US where rail and public transport is often also an afterthought.

corktina

metrostation wrote: »

In Japan they invest heavily in their railway infrastructure, and there are plans afoot to invest more into the future, including the island of Hokkaido.It may not have got the same funding as other parts of the country in the past but this was due to other issues such as an aging population, lack of tourism and geographical issues.

The sad reality is that we still have a third world railway network which lacks way behind most other western countries and whose capital city does not even have a metro network or airport railway link. Leo Varadkar has been pressurised into finally looking at investing into a dart underground project in order to keep the beurocrats in Brussels happy, and I would imagine they would not be happy to hear of his proposal to close down railway lines and investing in gas guzzling buses.

The reality is of course that there would be no investment in "gas guzzling buses" as they are already there and have the flexibility and capacity to take up the slack.

relaxed

SpaceTime wrote: »

I wish people would stop using the 3rd world terminology totally inappropriately. It's not a wonderful network but I suspect you've never actually encountered an actual third world piece of infrastructure.

1st world = member of NATO
2nd world = Soviet block
3rd world = The rest

We are, in fact, a 3rd world country, and have a railway network to match.

corktina

relaxed wrote: »

1st world = member of NATO
2nd world = Soviet block
3rd world = The rest

We are, in fact, a 3rd world country, and have a railway network to match.

On the modern definition you are undoubtedly correct. That is how I understood it to be,

bk

end of the road wrote: »

these uncomfortable gas guzzling busses should only be able to operate from towns without a railway to a rail head

Oh great, go back to paying Irish Rail €80 return to go Dublin to Cork, no fecking thanks!!

And by the way, the buses are very fuel efficient, the latest Aircoach coaches are up to the very latest (2014) EU engine fuel efficiency specs. In fact such coaches are more fuel efficient then Diesel trains.

Also they are incredibly comfortable with full leather, reclining seats, wifi and even power (both plug and USB port) at every seat, something the Cork train doesn't even have.

You are fooling yourself if you don't think modern coaches are just as fuel efficient and comfortable as trains, I can assure you they are.

AngryLips

I think the proposed line closures should be tied to commitments for a reduction in head count. No point in closing lines if one of your biggest costs, payroll, just ends up being shuffled to other parts of the network.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

CTYIgirl wrote: »

That gives you €12.22 per kilometre. Would it cost that much per km to run the trains? I know these are really rough calculations - a lot of the students would get off in Athlone or Tullamore, although tickets to these are the same price - but how would it work out?

That's a good question, and I don't have a direct answer. However, in this kind of discussion, people tend to raise a few cost factors.

One is the need to maintain the rail network, regardless of the amount of traffic. Just conceptually, compare how empty the Dublin-Galway rail line would be compared tot he Dublin-Galway road. Another is the fluctuations in traffic. As you say, weekend services will likely be full. But services during the week may not be as busy. Same might be said for buses, but it easier to match capacity to expected demand.

Now, that's only giving a vague response to your very precise point - but I'm just really mentioning that the issue around rail is the fixed cost. That fixed cost means rail is only worth doing if you are confident of a high volume of journeys between the two locations. Leaving aside commuter services, possibly only the Dublin-Belfast line has the populations to make that volume. Even Dublin-Cork might not be useful, as the growth in bus services on that route demonstrates.

Rail is a good way to travel, and Irish railways have a rich history. Unfortunately, that might not be enough as we really need to be careful with how we spend our money. Rail transport has to join a queue for public resources that includes, for the sake of argument, rural ambulance services. I think you are correct to mention the WRC in this context. Did rural communities really benefit from wasting money on a service that so few use? Yet, that's what a very active West of Ireland-based lobby successfully pushed for, ahead of more useful services.

monument

Judgement Day wrote: »

I note, as usual, bk sagely thanks any anti-railway post - might I be as bold as to ask about his knowledge/useage of the Waterford/Limerick Junction line? Surely you can't be basing your opinions on foggy_lad's ramblings? :rolleyes:

Hope that was worth a five day ban.

Opening attacking two posters like that won't be tolerated. A lot more so given you are not dealing with anything they have said.

-- Moderator

metrostation

Morf wrote: »

Japan are massively in-debt and their solution every time (Winter Olympics/World Cup with S. Korea/World Athletics Championship and so on) is to throw money at infrastructure to stimulate the economy. After 20+ years of stagnant growth in the economy with only meagre enough growth in the last 18 months or so it's hardly a ideal blueprint to follow for public transport.

You could say the same about Spain. They are massively in debt but still they spend billions on their railway infrastructure, they see it as a integral part of their economic recovery.

metrostation

SpaceTime wrote: »

I wish people would stop using the 3rd world terminology totally inappropriately. It's not a wonderful network but I suspect you've never actually encountered an actual third world piece of infrastructure.

Irish railways is a sparse, slow but very much 1st world system that is more like what you'd expect to find in parts of the US where rail and public transport is often also an afterthought.

Maybe I was being a bit harsh, but you have to agree we are way behind the likes of America, most European countries and even some of the old eastern European bloc countries have better railway infrastructure than we do. In the US they have neglected to bring some of their railway into the 21st century, but they now recognise this and are preparing to pump a lot of resources and finance into railway projects.

Also im tired of hearing the same old "We are a sparsely populated island and don't need a railway" line being spouted around here. Take Sicily for example, they are an island with a similar population to our own and they have invested in high speed railway lines and their capital city Palermo has a fairly decent metro system. Investing in railway is the way forward if done properly it can be profitable as has been shown in other European countries.