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Landlord terminating tenancy because of pet

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    #32
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    OP- I'd echo a lot of what has been said on this thread. Note though- you have run rough-shod over the fixed term lease, by bringing a dog into the property- so don't rely on it for any rights, as you have blatantly ignored what most people would understand to be a basic tenent of most leases.

    As for your deposit- once you introduce a dog into a property- its very difficult in all honesty, for you to expect it back. Normal practice is for several months deposit in cases where the property will have tenants with a dog.

    You're going to have to rely on the rights you have from your acquired Part 4 tenancy.


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    #33
    Thomas D
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 554 ✭✭✭Thomas D


    You don't have to vacate. Just ignore him and stay your course. His only option is to go through the PRTB. After 18 months they might rule in his favour but they can't do anything to enforce it.


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    #34
    Mr. Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    Thomas D wrote: »
    You don't have to vacate. Just ignore him and stay your course. His only option is to go through the PRTB. After 18 months they might rule in his favour but they can't do anything to enforce it.


    This is incorrect. Overholding matters are prioritised. You are looking 6-8 weeks adjudication, 4-6 months Tribunal and then there is considerable delay enforcing eviction through the courts but they do enforce.


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    #35
    Jaybor
    Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭Jaybor


    Thomas D wrote: »
    You don't have to vacate. Just ignore him and stay your course. His only option is to go through the PRTB. After 18 months they might rule in his favour but they can't do anything to enforce it.

    Posts like this are the reason deposits have got to increase to 2 or even 3 months rent. And rents will go up too so that landlords can build up a buffer against that type of behavior


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    #36
    nibtrix
    Registered Users Posts: 1,305 ✭✭✭nibtrix


    Mr. Incognito wrote: »
    Hi OP

    There is a LOT of misinformation on this thread.

    You are in situ since July 2013. This means you have a Part 4 Tenancy.

    The OP states they have a Fixed Term lease. Fixed term supersedes part 4 tenancy, i.e. is better than the rights you get in part 4 tenancy.

    The landlord can not ask you to leave just because they want to move back in, unless you agree to leave for a mutually agreed compensation.

    However they can start proper eviction proceedings for breaking the terms of the lease (keeping a dog, your verbal agreement means nothing).

    I'd say move the dog to a friends, tell the landlord they have no right to evict you, offer to leave for 6 months rent as compensation, while giving you at least 2 months to find a place.


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    #37
    percy212
    Registered Users Posts: 1,077 ✭✭✭percy212


    Well that's me terrified anyway.
    Jaybor wrote: »
    Posts like this are the reason deposits have got to increase to 2 or en 3 months rent. And rents will go up too so that landlords can build up a buffer against that type of behavior


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    #38
    Jaybor
    Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭Jaybor


    percy212 wrote: »
    Well that's me terrified anyway.

    You might not be terrified, but it just makes things more difficult for honest people in general. But crack on if you must.

    The sooner landlords and tenants get equal protection from scumbag elements the better it will be for everyone. Probably never happen in Ireland though.


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    #39
    Thomas D
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 554 ✭✭✭Thomas D


    Jaybor wrote: »
    Posts like this are the reason deposits have got to increase to 2 or even 3 months rent. And rents will go up too so that landlords can build up a buffer against that type of behavior

    It's the landlord here who is being badly behaved. Fight fire with fire,


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    #40
    Jaybor
    Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭Jaybor


    Thomas D wrote: »
    It's the landlord here who is being badly behaved. Fight fire with fire,


    Lease was broken by the OP. OP has admitted this. What could be clearer?


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    #41
    Thomas D
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 554 ✭✭✭Thomas D


    Jaybor wrote: »
    Lease was broken by the OP. OP has admitted this. What could be clearer?

    The terms of the tenancy were not broken. A lying scumbag of a landlord could argue otherwise.


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    #42
    Mr. Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    nibtrix wrote: »
    The OP states they have a Fixed Term lease. Fixed term supersedes part 4 tenancy, i.e. is better than the rights you get in part 4 tenancy.

    The landlord can not ask you to leave just because they want to move back in, unless you agree to leave for a mutually agreed compensation.

    However they can start proper eviction proceedings for breaking the terms of the lease (keeping a dog, your verbal agreement means nothing).

    I'd say move the dog to a friends, tell the landlord they have no right to evict you, offer to leave for 6 months rent as compensation, while giving you at least 2 months to find a place.

    I suggest you read the act. A Part 4 Tenancy is not superceded by a fixed term tenancy. A non residential fixed term tenancy is outside the act so you might be confused between the two.

    The landlord needing the property for himself or a family member is one of the valid grounds to terminate a part four tenancy.


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    #43
    The_Morrigan
    Registered Users Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    Thomas D wrote: »
    The terms of the tenancy were not broken. A lying scumbag of a landlord could argue otherwise.

    Stop making statements like this.


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    #44
    Thomas D
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 554 ✭✭✭Thomas D


    The_Morrigan wrote: »
    Stop making statements like this.

    Anyone who lies in a court to suit themselves is a scumbag.


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    #45
    The_Morrigan
    Registered Users Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    Thomas D wrote: »
    Anyone who lies in a court to suit themselves is a scumbag.

    Thomas you are here long enough to know that you do not argue with a mod instruction on thread - this is a site wide rule.

    If you can't abide by our charter and the site wide rules then please refrain from posting here.

    Folks, back on topic now please.


    Morri


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    #46
    Arbiter of Good Taste
    Registered Users Posts: 2,200 ✭✭✭Arbiter of Good Taste


    Thomas D wrote: »
    The terms of the tenancy were not broken. A lying scumbag of a landlord could argue otherwise.

    And who is to say the LL is lying if the lease specifically states no pets? Frankly the OP was very negligent not to insist that clause be removed from the lease if he agreed otherwise with the LL.


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    #47
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Thomas D wrote: »
    Anyone who lies in a court to suit themselves is a scumbag.

    Anyone who continues to argue with a moderator on-thread, despite being warned not to, both on thread, and by PM- gets a ban. Thomas D- banned for 2 weeks. Kindly rethink your participation, and follow the forum charter, should you choose to post in here again on the elapse of your ban.

    Regards,

    The_Conductor


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    #48
    iguana
    Registered Users Posts: 12,916 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    OP, I'd say your best bet now is to write to/email the EA and tell them their actions to date are harassment and if it continues you will ignore any more contact of this kind from them and make a complaint of harassment to the Gardaí. Tell them that if they wish to start the eviction process you will only engage with it if it is done as set out by law but that you will then fight it through the proper legal channels, which will take quite a long time to conclude. If you have decided on a compromise by which you would be willing to leave the house sooner, give them that option then. If not just end there and do not answer any calls from them.

    In future never, ever sign a lease that is at odds with your verbal agreement. I have rented numerous properties with my dogs and have never been willing to sign a lease with a clause denying me the right to have pets on the property, even though I have been assured by the agent that it was just a formality. I've always made them amend the lease before signing it. They haven't wanted the hassle but when it comes down to it on the day and they realise that I won't be signing it until it's amended, they quickly do so.


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    #49
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,301 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Marnock wrote: »
    Thanks Ken,
    They have been very careful not to put anything in writing. All phone calls.
    If they ring in future, say you're busy, and could they send the info by text/email/letter instead.


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    #50
    nibtrix
    Registered Users Posts: 1,305 ✭✭✭nibtrix


    Mr. Incognito wrote: »
    I suggest you read the act. A Part 4 Tenancy is not superceded by a fixed term tenancy. A non residential fixed term tenancy is outside the act so you might be confused between the two.

    The landlord needing the property for himself or a family member is one of the valid grounds to terminate a part four tenancy.

    The prtb seems to think that part 4 only applies when it benefits the tenant over and above the fixed term lease. It also clearly states that "a landlord cannot rely on the provisions of Section 34, to terminate a fixed term tenancy during the fixed term."

    In this case the landlord can attempt to evict as the OP broke the terms (keeping an animal) but they cannot use part 4 to claim they need the property back for personal use.

    See links and details below.

    http://www.prtb.ie/dispute-resolution/disputes/terminating-a-fixed-term-tenancy

    FIXED TERM TENANCIES AND PART 4
    The existence of a fixed term tenancy does not preclude the operation of Part 4. Part 4 runs with a fixed term tenancy, so that the continuous occupation by a tenant under a fixed term tenancy for a period of 6 months, means the tenant shall, as in normal course, become entitled to the protections of a Part 4 tenancy. In cases of fixed term tenancies however, the rights under Part 4 only apply to the extent that they benefit the tenant over and above the rights afforded to him or her under the terms of the fixed term tenancy.
    TERMINATION
    Part 4 Tenancies
    A landlord may terminate a Part 4 tenancy, in accordance with the provisions of the Act, where any of the circumstances set out in Section 34 of the Act arise. For instance a landlord, may terminate a tenancy, in circumstances where he or she wants to live in the dwelling concerned.
    A tenant can terminate a Part 4 tenancy at any time and without reason, provided he or she gives the requisite notice and complies with the provisions for termination of a tenancy under the Act, which includes the service of a valid notice of termination.
    Fixed Term Tenancies
    A landlord can only terminate a fixed term tenancy where the tenant has been in breach of his or her obligations. Accordingly, a landlord cannot rely on the provisions of Section 34, to terminate a fixed term tenancy during the fixed term. Following the expiration of the fixed term period however, if the tenant has exercised his rights under Part 4, to extend his tenure for the remainder of the Part 4 tenancy of 4 years, the landlord can from then on, rely on the provisions of Section 34.
    Similarly, a tenant can only terminate a fixed term tenancy where there the landlord has been in breach of his or her obligations.6 In addition however, where the landlord has refused consent to an assignment or sub-let, the tenant can also terminate the tenancy, in accordance with Section 186.


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    #51
    Mr. Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    nibtrix wrote: »
    The prtb seems to think that part 4 only applies when it benefits the tenant over and above the fixed term lease. It also clearly states that "a landlord cannot rely on the provisions of Section 34, to terminate a fixed term tenancy during the fixed term."

    In this case the landlord can attempt to evict as the OP broke the terms (keeping an animal) but they cannot use part 4 to claim they need the property back for personal use.

    See links and details below.

    http://www.prtb.ie/dispute-resolution/disputes/terminating-a-fixed-term-tenancy

    FIXED TERM TENANCIES AND PART 4
    The existence of a fixed term tenancy does not preclude the operation of Part 4. Part 4 runs with a fixed term tenancy, so that the continuous occupation by a tenant under a fixed term tenancy for a period of 6 months, means the tenant shall, as in normal course, become entitled to the protections of a Part 4 tenancy. In cases of fixed term tenancies however, the rights under Part 4 only apply to the extent that they benefit the tenant over and above the rights afforded to him or her under the terms of the fixed term tenancy.
    TERMINATION
    Part 4 Tenancies
    A landlord may terminate a Part 4 tenancy, in accordance with the provisions of the Act, where any of the circumstances set out in Section 34 of the Act arise. For instance a landlord, may terminate a tenancy, in circumstances where he or she wants to live in the dwelling concerned.
    A tenant can terminate a Part 4 tenancy at any time and without reason, provided he or she gives the requisite notice and complies with the provisions for termination of a tenancy under the Act, which includes the service of a valid notice of termination.
    Fixed Term Tenancies
    A landlord can only terminate a fixed term tenancy where the tenant has been in breach of his or her obligations. Accordingly, a landlord cannot rely on the provisions of Section 34, to terminate a fixed term tenancy during the fixed term. Following the expiration of the fixed term period however, if the tenant has exercised his rights under Part 4, to extend his tenure for the remainder of the Part 4 tenancy of 4 years, the landlord can from then on, rely on the provisions of Section 34.
    Similarly, a tenant can only terminate a fixed term tenancy where there the landlord has been in breach of his or her obligations.6 In addition however, where the landlord has refused consent to an assignment or sub-let, the tenant can also terminate the tenancy, in accordance with Section 186.

    You might point me to the provision in the Act that reflects this.

    There are restrictions for serving a rent increase notice within the first 12 months but that is it.

    I assure you a landlord can terminate a tenancy under S34 for a breach or if he requires the property. Free alienation of property under the constitution trumps private contractual arrangements. The PRTB info is only a guide and is not legal advice nor is it to be relied upon.

    Section 34 is invoked almost universally when a lease is in place.

    You also previously said that a fixed term contract trumps a part 4 Tenancy, in fact it is the other way around when the lease is deficient. We now agree on this.

    Here is the act.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/act/pub/0027/print.html#sec29

    Please show me where the landlord is restricted serving notice during the fixed term.


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    #52
    nibtrix
    Registered Users Posts: 1,305 ✭✭✭nibtrix


    Mr. Incognito wrote: »
    You might point me to the provision in the Act that reflects this.

    There are restrictions for serving a rent increase notice within the first 12 months but that is it.

    I assure you a landlord can terminate a tenancy under S34 for a breach or if he requires the property. Free alienation of property under the constitution trumps private contractual arrangements. The PRTB info is only a guide and is not legal advice nor is it to be relied upon.

    Section 34 is invoked almost universally when a lease is in place.

    You also previously said that a fixed term contract trumps a part 4 Tenancy, in fact it is the other way around when the lease is deficient. We now agree on this.

    Here is the act.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/act/pub/0027/print.html#sec29

    Please show me where the landlord is restricted serving notice during the fixed term.


    Section 26 - "Nothing in this Part operates to derogate from any rights the tenant enjoys for the time being (by reason of the tenancy concerned) that are more beneficial for the tenant than those created by this Part."

    Section 58 (2) – “Accordingly, the termination by the landlord or the tenant of
    (a) more beneficial rights referred to in section 26 that the tenant enjoys under a tenancy than those created by Part 4, or
    (b) a tenancy to which section 25 applies,
    must be effected by means of a notice of termination that complies with this Part.

    Section 58 (3) –
    “Each of the following:
    (a) a tenancy referred to in subsection (2)(a) (unless it expressly excludes this means of termination),
    (b) a tenancy referred to in subsection (2)(b), and
    (c) a tenancy of a dwelling created before or after the relevant date in so far as its operation is not affected by Part 4,
    shall be construed as including a term enabling its termination by means of a notice of termination that complies with this Part (but, in the case of a tenancy that is for a fixed period, unless it provides otherwise, only where there has been a failure by the party in relation to whom the notice is served to comply with any obligations of the tenancy).”


    You cannot end a fixed term lease just because you want the property back for personal use. The part 4 rights cannot derogate any more beneficial rights the tenant may gain from the written lease.

    Only when there has been a failure to comply with the terms of the lease (as by the OP in this case) can the landlord break the lease.


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