Are we in 1930's Mississippi?

Femme_Fatale

garp wrote: »

I will help you out.
One word on google search.
Pogrom.. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogrom

add in a city
Limerick Pogrom... >>> http://irishecho.com/2011/02/98-years-ago-the-limerick-pogrom-2/

Job done..

Not really. That was 1904; Gatling said the mistreatment of Jews here occurred after WWII. I don't doubt there is and has been anti-semitism in Ireland btw.
Also, what about the "Nazis were treated like celebrities" assertion?

A Scoundrel

shruikan2553 wrote: »

A traveler is entitled to attend college as much as any other person. If their "culture" is one which doesnt value education then we have done what we can. They aren't willing to accept the offer so they dont get my pity.

Hang on, who are "they"?

5 year old kids who are supposed to 'know' better than not go to school?
14 year olds who are supposed to 'know' better?

Jesus if my folks had let me leave school at 12 and ride horses for life, I'd have jumped at the chance! There is a cycle here-kids leave school because they don't know any better, they end up as parents who subsequently don't value education, who don't see themselves, or their subsequent kids, as being useful in the educational system.

Who exactly are you blaming for travellers not taking up places in UCD?

Sounds to me like youre blaming the parent, of the kid who himself will become that parent. If you're not seeing a feedback loop, I can;t help you. Good night!

A Scoundrel

Un Croissant wrote: »

'Ah sure, rob me gates, why don't ya? Sure aren't ya seven times more likely to suffer a loss by suicide'

I'm saying that a suicide pales in comparison, in its importance, to your stolen tools.

Do you think these families want to see these young men die by their own hand?

Do you seriously think they don;t care for their own welfare?

If they can't even prevent their kids going down this doomed path at such a sickening rate, then it isn't just 'badness', there is a mental, educational, social impoverishment at the heart of the traveller community. It will never be solved by blame, and as long as you 'blame', nothing will ever change.

But of course, that's fine for you. As long as your tools are safe, be grand.

tomwaterford

A Scoundrel wrote: »

Hang on, who are "they"?

5 year old kids who are supposed to 'know' better than not go to school?
14 year olds who are supposed to 'know' better?

Jesus if my folks had let me leave school at 12 and ride horses for life, I'd have jumped at the chance! There is a cycle here-kids leave school because they don't know any better, they end up as parents who subsequently don't value education, who don't see themselves, or their subsequent kids, as being useful in the educational system.

Who exactly are you blaming for travellers not taking up places in UCD?

Sounds to me like youre blaming the parent, of the kid who himself will become that parent. If you're not seeing a feedback loop, I can;t help you. Good night!

if travellers cannot see a cycle developing what hope have they

sure jesus how can there parents let them home...who wants to see there kids hanging about all day

any education is better than none...nothing to stop them going back later in life (however unlikely it may be)

short of taking children off them what can state do

*just to be clear I am 100% against taking children off any parents unless exceptional circumstances

Un Croissant

A Scoundrel wrote: »

I'm saying that a suicide pales in comparison, in its importance, to your stolen tools.

Do you think these families want to see these young men die by their own hand?

Do you seriously think they don;t care for their own welfare?

If they can't even prevent their kids going down this doomed path at such a sickening rate, then it isn't just 'badness', there is a mental, educational, social impoverishment at the heart of the traveller community. It will never be solved by blame, and as long as you 'blame', nothing will ever change.

But of course, that's fine for you. As long as your tools are safened, be grand.

Well, and not to be cruel, but another person dying doesn't mean that much to the average person versus their possessions.

If i need X to go out and earn for my(self)/family. And someone steals X. I couldn't care less if that person was more likely to commit suicide.

I think I'm coming across worse than I mean to. A suicide, while awful, does not impact me in the same was as having my livelihood jeopardized.

A Scoundrel

tomwaterford wrote: »

it is up to the parents of children born now to stop the educational dropouts...

So, hang on.

The kids get a get-out-of-jail free card while they're kids: we say "ah it's grand, you're not expected to know better"

Yet, they turn some magical age in late puberty when traveller children (typically) start having children, and suddenly the same standards apply to these systematically undereducated, undersocialized (by our standards) kids, as apply to the rest of society?

What?

I'm sorry do you think there is some on/off responsibility button that we all have at a specific day in our age, regardless of how uneducated, disaffected, or alienated we are?

shruikan2553

A Scoundrel wrote: »

Hang on, who are "they"?

5 year old kids who are supposed to 'know' better than not go to school?
14 year olds who are supposed to 'know' better?

Jesus if my folks had let me leave school at 12 and ride horses for life, I'd have jumped at the chance! There is a cycle here-kids leave school because they don't know any better, they end up as parents who subsequently don't value education, who don't see themselves, or their subsequent kids, as being useful in the educational system.

Who exactly are you blaming for travellers not taking up places in UCD?

Sounds to me like youre blaming the parent, of the kid who himself will become that parent. If you're not seeing a feedback loop, I can;t help you. Good night!

Of course it's the parents fault. They dont make their child get at least a LC so become pretty much unemployable. Many people who leave school early regret it, they want their child to get the best possible options later in life. Even if you leave school there are options available later which they dont take. This country provides free education up to the LC and very cheap third level education. They have no excuse for not taking it.

A Scoundrel

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Of course it's the parents fault. They dont make their child get at least a LC so become pretty much unemployable.

Do you accept that there is a reason why children should grow up educated, and in a healthy family life?

Probably yes. Lets proceed ----

Do you accept that if children grow up without an education, then through no fault of their own, they just don't have the same cop on as the rest of us? And the cycle continues....

If not, what the bloody hell is the point of education and healthy family life????

tomwaterford

A Scoundrel wrote: »

So, hang on.

The kids get a get-out-of-jail free card while they're kids: we say "ah it's grand, you're not expected to know better"

Yet, they turn some magical age in late puberty when traveller children (typically) start having children, and suddenly the same standards apply to these systematically undereducated, undersocialized (by our standards) kids, as apply to the rest of society?

What?

I'm sorry do you think there is some on/off responsibility button that we all have at a specific day in our age, regardless of how uneducated, disaffected, or alienated we are?

by the time traveller children get to drop out age parents are far from children...ex having child at 16...by time child gets to 7 parent is 23

they are far from children at that age themselves...if they cant see common sense by then they have no hope

when I in school I hated it....doesn't mean I don't see advantage of it now!!!

what parent doesn't want their children to do well....even children being educated would be a start for them...

tomwaterford

A Scoundrel wrote: »

Do you accept that there is a reason why children should grow up educated, and in a healthy family life?

Probably yes. Lets proceed ----

Do you accept that if children grow up without an education, then through no fault of their own, they just don't have the same cop on as the rest of us? And the cycle continues....

If not, what the bloody hell is the point of education and healthy family life????

are you suggesting they are inherently thick??

as much as I distrust them...there far from thick

shruikan2553

A Scoundrel wrote: »

Do you accept that there is a reason why children should grow up educated, and in a healthy family life?

Probably yes. Lets proceed ----

Do you accept that if children grow up without an education, then through no fault of their own, they just don't have the same cop on as the rest of us? And the cycle continues....

If not, what the bloody hell is the point of education and healthy family life????

They may not value education as much as others but they should still be able to notice that those who stayed in school became doctors, engineers and scientists that earn a lot more money than them. Enough money to buy what they want, people who dont have to keep their background a secret when having a wedding, longer life expectancy, less domestic violence, less prison sentences. Most people from any background would see these and want their children to have the chance to have these.

A Scoundrel

tomwaterford wrote: »

are you suggesting they are inherently thick??

If "thick" means ignorant to "our ways", then yes, I do, oh yes.

I think there is a reason why we send out kids to school, there is a reason why our parents abided by attendance regulations, there is a reason why they sent us to drama club or scouts or forced us to do gaisce awards or made us study for our exams or scolded us when we fought, pinched, or were disrespectful.

There was a reason. The reason is that we should grow up to be respectable adults, with a sense of community and purpose.

A substantial number of travellers are not respectable persons in any sense of the word. A substantial number have no sense of community, either amongst themselves or amongst any of their other fellow men.

Why is that?

It is because God made us without responsibility buttons Tom. If you don't teach kids to be human, don't be surprised if they grow up with serious problems, and don't be surprised if these problems are reproduced in subsequent populations.

We need to intervene with traveller children in quite a dramatic way, and stop the cycle of blame and bigotry.

Un Croissant

A Scoundrel wrote: »

If "thick" means ignorant to "our ways", then yes, I do, oh yes.

I think there is a reason why we send out kids to school, there is a reason why our parents abided by attendance regulations, there is a reason why they sent us to drama club or scouts or forced us to do gaisce awards or made us study for our exams or scolded us when we fought, pinched, or were disrespectful.

There was a reason. The reason is that we should grow up to be respectable adults, with a sense of community and purpose.

A substantial number of travellers are not respectable persons in any sense of the word. A substantial number have no sense of community, either amongst themselves or amongst any of their other fellow men.

Why is that?

It is because God made us without responsibility buttons Tom. If you don't teach kids to be human, don't be surprised if they grow up with serious problems, and don't be surprised if these problems are reproduced in subsequent populations.

We need to intervene with traveller children in quite a dramatic way, and stop the cycle of blame and bigotry.

You suggest...removal of children? Serious question. Or enforced attendance? How?

Femme_Fatale

A Scoundrel wrote: »

We need to intervene with traveller children in quite a dramatic way

Absolutely. How?

tomwaterford

A Scoundrel wrote: »

If "thick" means ignorant to "our ways", then yes, I do, oh yes.

I think there is a reason why we send out kids to school, there is a reason why our parents abided by attendance regulations, there is a reason why they sent us to drama club or scouts or forced us to do gaisce awards or made us study for our exams or scolded us when we fought, pinched, or were disrespectful.

There was a reason. The reason is that we should grow up to be respectable adults, with a sense of community and purpose.

A substantial number of travellers are not respectable persons in any sense of the word. A substantial number have no sense of community, either amongst themselves or amongst any of their other fellow men.

Why is that?

It is because God made us without responsibility buttons Tom. If you don't teach kids to be human, don't be surprised if they grow up with serious problems, and don't be surprised if these problems are reproduced in subsequent populations.

We need to intervene with traveller children in quite a dramatic way, and stop the cycle of blame and bigotry.

whats your great idea for this....some backwards opinions you are holding there IMO
they well know right and wrong there just getting away with too long now to care is all the problem now

A Scoundrel

Un Croissant wrote: »

You suggest...removal of children? Serious question. Or enforced attendance? How?

I would suggest quite a significant removal of children, yes. Social workers with the best of intentions seem powerless to save these children from the inevitable cycles of mental health crises and early deaths. I think there is nothing else for it.

I would be horrified to see the travelling people, as a distinct population, eradicated; I hope the children who are removed can rebuild the most constructive aspects of their identity.

But they are people, and Irish people, before they are travellers, and as I said earlier, these children need to be saved from Ireland, and how Ireland, the State, is treating them at present.

pablo128

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Absolutely. How?

A few ads on the telly, like the rules of the road ones, how to negotiate roundabouts, overtaking and whatnot.:pac:

Cut the parents children allowance if they are repeatedly left out of school. If there's one thing they understand, it's money.

Femme_Fatale

I'm not sure with what's wrong with how the state is treating traveller children. It is accommodating them but many of their parents aren't availing.

Un Croissant

A Scoundrel wrote: »

I would suggest quite a significant removal of children, yes. Social workers with the best of intentions seem powerless to save these children from the inevitable cycles of mental health crises and early deaths. I think there is nothing else for it.

I would be horrified to see the travelling people, as a distinct population, eradicated; I hope the children who are removed can rebuild the most constructive aspects of their identity.

But they are people, and Irish people, before they are travellers, and as I said earlier, these children need to be saved from Ireland, and how Ireland, the State, is treating them at present.

So you want to save them from Ireland and the State.. by surrendering large amounts of them to the State..for rehabilitation?

tomwaterford

A Scoundrel wrote: »

I would suggest quite a significant removal of children, yes. Social workers with the best of intentions seem powerless to save these children from the inevitable cycles of mental health crises and early deaths. I think there is nothing else for it.

I would be horrified to see the travelling people, as a distinct population, eradicated; I hope the children who are removed can rebuild the most constructive aspects of their identity.

But they are people, and Irish people, before they are travellers, and as I said earlier, these children need to be saved from Ireland, and how Ireland, the State, is treating them at present.

the irish state hasn't a great tradition of helping children in its care (see industrial schools in the 20th century)

you are very naïve if you think any human rights organisation will allow wholesale confiscation of children
I wouldn't support it myself

though they should be going out and educating the children in preschool days and improve their literacy

what is happening is they are behind when they start school and keep falling behind until dropping out is only sensible option

A Scoundrel

Un Croissant wrote: »

So you want to save them from Ireland and the State.. by surrendering large amounts of them to the State..for rehabilitation?

I want to save them from how the State is currently treating them - that is to say, happy to sit back and see former crops of neglected children being blamed for future crops of neglected children, as would probably never happen elsewhere in society.

Where possible, children should be allowed to stay with their biological families. But where necessary, and to show we are serious, compliance with the norms of citizenship must be introduced - that means, providing all children with the genuine decision-making capabilities of which aspects of their fine culture they want to embrace, and which aspects of Ireland's fine educational and employment system they want to embrace.

I don't want to see any child separated from their family, but if that family is not willing to provide that child with opportunity, then Ireland has to make sure -for once - that the family knows an ultimatum will be delivered upon, and they will lose the privilege of shaping and moulding that human being if they do not comply with their obligations.

In many cases, families will be simply unable to comply with their obligations. That is sad, but the primary obligation lies with rescuing the next generations.

tomwaterford

A Scoundrel wrote: »

I would suggest quite a significant removal of children, yes. Social workers with the best of intentions seem powerless to save these children from the inevitable cycles of mental health crises and early deaths. I think there is nothing else for it.

.

[QUOTE=A Scoundrel;89800217

I don't want to see any child separated from their family,
.[/QUOTE]


lies make baby jesus cry:cool:

pablo128

A Scoundrel wrote: »

I want to save them from how the State is currently treating them - that is to say, happy to sit back and see former crops of neglected children being blamed for future crops of neglected children, as would probably never happen elsewhere in society.

Where possible, children should be allowed to stay with their biological families. But where necessary, and to show we are serious, compliance with the norms of citizenship must be introduced - that means, providing all children with the genuine decision-making capabilities of which aspects of their fine culture they want to embrace, and which aspects of Ireland's fine educational and employment system they want to embrace.

I don't want to see any child separated from their family, but if that family is not willing to provide that child with opportunity, then Ireland has to make sure -for once - that the family knows an ultimatum will be delivered upon, and they will lose the privilege of shaping and moulding that human being if they do not comply with their obligations.

The system for the general public is to, in extreme cases, imprison the parents for their childrens non-attendance. Should be the same for everyone, including travellers.

Un Croissant

A Scoundrel wrote: »

I want to save them from how the State is currently treating them - that is to say, happy to sit back and see former crops of neglected children being blamed for future crops of neglected children, as would probably never happen elsewhere in society.

Where possible, children should be allowed to stay with their biological families. But where necessary, and to show we are serious, compliance with the norms of citizenship must be introduced - that means, providing all children with the genuine decision-making capabilities of which aspects of their fine culture they want to embrace, and which aspects of Ireland's fine educational and employment system they want to embrace.

I don't want to see any child separated from their family, but if that family is not willing to provide that child with opportunity, then Ireland has to make sure -for once - that the family knows an ultimatum will be delivered upon, and they will lose the privilege of shaping and moulding that human being if they do not comply with their obligations.

What are the criteria of this tipping point after which the State intervenes? Poor school attendance? Poor exam results? Criminal history?

Will it be rolled out to the wider population? Who will determine what aspects of traveller culture we keep?

(I'm defending travellers for once)

A Scoundrel

tomwaterford wrote: »

lies make baby jesus cry:cool:

eh?

I don't want (desire, aspire to) the idea of families being separated from their children. But I recognize that it may be necessary - among traveller children, and indeed amongst any children from any society, anywhere.

I'm sure you don't *want* to see settled, or any other children, removed from their families. But if you are an adult, and if you are rational, and if you are capable of the usual cognitive processes, you will understand it to be inevitable: it simply will happen.

Chazz Michael Michaels

efb wrote: »

So as usual AH thinks it's perfectly fine to tar all travellers with the one brush....

I know. Its clearly the majority giving the minority a bad name.

Stavros Murphy

A Scoundrel wrote: »

Do you accept that there is a reason why children should grow up educated, and in a healthy family life?

Probably yes. Lets proceed ----

Do you accept that if children grow up without an education, then through no fault of their own, they just don't have the same cop on as the rest of us? And the cycle continues....

If not, what the bloody hell is the point of education and healthy family life????

My eldest left school at barely 16, no LC, no nothing. He works 6 days a week, earns a good, honest living and has so far not felt the need to tie up the neighbours, race sulkys on motorways or rob lawnmowers. He is also not acquainted with the Gardai. LC is not the b all and end all.

A Scoundrel

Un Croissant wrote: »

What are the criteria of this tipping point after which the State intervenes? Poor school attendance? Poor exam results? Criminal history?

That would be a matter for the Department of Education, and the Department of Health. I haven't written a white paper on this.

I am simply suggesting that if parents are inadequately performing their parental duties (either through a tragic level of incapacity or, rarely, unwillingess), then the State ought to intervene to place that child in a more secure and constructive setting.

tomwaterford

A Scoundrel wrote: »

I would suggest quite a significant removal of children, yes. Social workers with the best of intentions seem powerless to save these children from the inevitable cycles of mental health crises and early deaths. I think there is nothing else for it.

I would be horrified to see the travelling people, as a distinct population, eradicated; I hope the children who are removed can rebuild the most constructive aspects of their identity.

But they are people, and Irish people, before they are travellers, and as I said earlier, these children need to be saved from Ireland, and how Ireland, the State, is treating them at present.

A Scoundrel wrote: »

eh?

I don't want (desire, aspire to) the idea of families being separated from their children. But I recognize that it may be necessary - among traveller children, and indeed amongst any children from any society, anywhere.

I'm sure you don't *want* to see settled, or any other children, removed from their families. But if you are an adult, and if you are rational, and if you are capable of the usual cognitive processes, you will understand it to be inevitable: it simply will happen.

see highlighted bit....seems to be a slight change in opinion there

im confused by rest of your second post

A Scoundrel

tomwaterford wrote: »

see highlighted bit....seems to be a slight change in opinion there

im confused by rest of your second post

Then you're confusing yourself un-necessarily.

I don't *desire* to see travellers separated from families; in fact I would wish to see the that happen to nobody.

Nevertheless, as a realist, I accept that it is inevitable that a substantial amount ought to be relocated to more constructive environments.

I hope that travellers might still thrive, the above notwithstanding, but that is less important than these children's potential in their own right, as children of this society.