Are we in 1930's Mississippi?

tomwaterford

A Scoundrel wrote: »

Then you're confusing yourself un-necessarily.

I don't *desire* to see travellers separated from families; in fact I would wish to see the that happen to nobody.

Nevertheless, as a realist, I accept that it is inevitable that a substantial amount ought to be relocated to more constructive environments.

I hope that travellers might still thrive, the above notwithstanding, but that is less important than these children's potential in their own right, as children of this society.

so you want travellers to thrive by taking children off them???

no way could any human rights would stand over this...essentially confiscating children


like I said educate them in preschool to give them a headstart when they start school....I wouldn't want to be associated with what you are proposing...its beyond belief:eek:

WilyCoyote

Any figures relating to the ratio of Traveller children taken into care per capita:Non Traveller children? I'd wager the Social Workers don't move as quickly there. Why? Because most of them are left wing pinkos - aloof from reality - who's feet are firmly in the clouds.

A Scoundrel

tomwaterford wrote: »

so you want travellers to thrive by taking children off them???

no way could any human rights would stand over this...essentially confiscating children


like I said educate them in preschool to give them a headstart when they start school....I wouldn't want to be associated with what you are proposing...its beyond belief:eek:

round and round we go, back to where we started

A Scoundrel wrote: »

They are a people frozen somewhere in mid 20th century Ireland. Their young people, in particular, are not in a position to suddenly take responsibility for that and bring themselves up to Dublin South East 2014 standards. Like I said, I'm not expecting anyone to get real, I've almost totally given up on this issue myself.

that's my position, the previous is yours. I'm pretty resigned to this issue, but roll on the blame, the bigotry and the hysteria until this thread runs to an end. Goodnight all!

Femme_Fatale

A Scoundrel wrote: »

roll on the blame, the bigotry and the hysteria until this thread runs to an end. Goodnight all!

You just won't accept reality; we understand. You have ignored questions and points that contradict your stance.
It's kinda obnoxious really to ignore the realities just for the sake of calling people bigots. And as for blame... when people do stuff... yeh it's ok to blame them then.

Education that state provides traveller children (as it should) would help break the mould for so many traveller children, but their parents often don't encourage it... how is this "our" fault?

Femme_Fatale

Deleted User wrote: »

In the vast majority of topics of debate that arise on boards I'm on the liberal "PC pink lefite" side - I'm entirely in favour of gay marriage, entirely pro-choice, against racism directed towards immigrants etc.

However, I must confess that when it comes to travellers I take a slightly different view. I am under no doubt whatsoever that there are decent traveller folk out there, and it does pain me to tar them all with the same brush, but where I'm from, the nearest town (the largest town in North Cork) has had many problems with Traveller families causing problems, and that has unfortunately affected my view of the community as a whole. I live in England at the moment, and when my parents came to visit, they specifically mentioned as part of the "local news" the damage that traveller families caused in a local feud. And my mother went out of her way to mention that a specific traveller (a neighbour of my cousin's partner) was related to those who caused trouble and yet was perfectly well adjusted and harmless, so I know it's not just blind prejudice on the part of my parents; if they were ever blatantly racist I assure you I would take issue with them! Sadly, I do hear a disproportionate number of crime stories involving travellers, and it has coloured my view of them.

Aye. Not being in denial does not make a person bigoted.

Ihatecuddles

I'm traveller stock as my OH lovingly points out.

Ill readily admit that my own family are absolute scum of the earth. Between dog fighting, bare knuckle boxing, abusing their wives because 'they own them', littering, being rowdy, starting fights everywhere we go.... I could go on.

We have a huge family, there's only 1 I'd happily introduce to my friends and OHs family.

Galwayguy35

A Scoundrel wrote: »

There's a cycle of poverty that you don't understand ;you're probably not interested in understanding it. It's 01.56, I'm not interested in starting it, I just revert to my original point: there is a grotesque culture of hatred, which wilfully ignores serious, life and death crises in the traveller community.

Poverty ya say!

Passed through Craughwell a while back and there was a wedding on, very unusual for a Wednesday I thought.

Not one of the cars there was under 08 and yes it was a traveller wedding.

Where I live the local pub was asked to hold a traveller wedding, the owner was reluctant at first until 10 k was left in front of him, there was no trouble and he was told if there was a fight the cost of the damage would be covered.

As for the headstones over the graves, they ain't cheap.

Some might be poor but most of them do have money, and lots of it.

All cash transactions as well so hard for the taxman to follow that money trail.

old_aussie

reeks of "They (travellers)can be where they want, just as long as they're not in my street"

Davei141

old_aussie wrote: »

reeks of "They (travellers)can be where they want, just as long as they're not in my street"

Dealt with many halting sides or anti-social traveller behaviour in Australia have we. :rolleyes:

anncoates

old_aussie wrote: »

reeks of "They (travellers)can be where they want, just as long as they're not in my street"

It's just being honest.

If anybody here has been in the situation where they've been intimidated in their own home, they know it's possibly the worst feeling you can have.

Davei141

anncoates wrote: »

It's just being honest.

If anybody here has been in the situation where they've been intimidated in their own home, they know it's possibly the worst feeling you can have.

Imagine the poor sods out in rural areas completely isolated too, I couldn't even imagine the anguish they feel having travellers robbing them constantly. In saying that i know lots of really hard working extremely decent travellers i also know a load of pure scum.

Funnily enough the decent ones would be all to ready to admit the problem they have, unlike some on this thread making excuses for the behaviour.

Kurtosis

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

No it doesnt. It legislates for nine distinct characteristics where discrimination is unlawful. Being a member of the traveller community is one of them.
If the characteristic isnt one of the nine, you can discriminate legally all you like.

Two of the characteristics are gender and age, which everyone has. The previous poster was correct, the equality act does protect everyone from discrimination.

Arbiter of Good Taste

I'm amused at all the horrified reactions to A Scoundrel's proposals.

Do I feel comfortable with the concept of taking traveller children from their parents? No, least of all because you cannot trust the State to act reasonably. One day they're taking children because their parents refuse to educate them; the next day you have a situation like the UK where perfectly cared for children are put in State care because their parents voted for a BNP councillor - something which they were legally entitled to do.

But the fact of the matter is that a lot of people on this thread are complaining that travellers are their own worst enemies, that education would solve a lot of their societal issues, etc, etc.

I agree wholeheartedly. I also agree that the solutions are available to them - as a society we provide free education to everyone. But the fact is that traveller parents do not tend to encourage their children to stay in school. So there is the main problem.

How do we change that? A Scoundrel gave a suggestion. Every one else is just complaining. I don't like A Scoundrel's suggestion, but it should be treated as a point of discussion, not derision. At least he/she has brought to the table something more than just a litany of complaints.

oldyouth

mauzo! wrote: »

I'm traveller stock as my OH lovingly points out.

Ill readily admit that my own family are absolute scum of the earth. Between dog fighting, bare knuckle boxing, abusing their wives because 'they own them', littering, being rowdy, starting fights everywhere we go.... I could go on.

We have a huge family, there's only 1 I'd happily introduce to my friends and OHs family.

Ah here now, we can't have people with 1st hand experience debating this

5live

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

I'm amused at all the horrified reactions to A Scoundrel's proposals.

Do I feel comfortable with the concept of taking traveller children from their parents? No, least of all because you cannot trust the State to act reasonably. One day they're taking children because their parents refuse to educate them; the next day you have a situation like the UK where perfectly cared for children are put in State care because their parents voted for a BNP councillor - something which they were legally entitled to do.

But the fact of the matter is that a lot of people on this thread are complaining that travellers are their own worst enemies, that education would solve a lot of their societal issues, etc, etc.

I agree wholeheartedly. I also agree that the solutions are available to them - as a society we provide free education to everyone. But the fact is that traveller parents do not tend to encourage their children to stay in school. So there is the main problem.

How do we change that? A Scoundrel gave a suggestion. Every one else is just complaining. I don't like A Scoundrel's suggestion, but it should be treated as a point of discussion, not derision. At least he/she has brought to the table something more than just a litany of complaints.

Its definitely distasteful.

But as you said, its the only possible solution that anyone has put forward.

I would have huge concerns about doing so, however. The history of Aboriginal children in Australis being removed from their families to be 'normalised' to European standards is not a pretty tale:(

mauzo!

mauzo! wrote: »

I'm traveller stock as my OH lovingly points out.

Ill readily admit that my own family are absolute scum of the earth. Between dog fighting, bare knuckle boxing, abusing their wives because 'they own them', littering, being rowdy, starting fights everywhere we go.... I could go on.

We have a huge family, there's only 1 I'd happily introduce to my friends and OHs family.

You come across as an educated Gal, what was your schooling history?

bumper234

If my children don't go to school then the authorities will be on my back about it.

If i refuse to send my children to school then i will be dragged before the courts to explain why they are not in school.

If my child STILL misses school then there is a chance that I end up going to prison.


A traveler child does not go to school..........MEH!


If they wish to be treated equally then they need to start living by the same rules and laws as the rest of us. Makes my blood boil every time i see or hear about "travelers rights" when really they are only entitled to the same rights as everyone else.

Ghost Buster

A Scoundrel wrote: »

I tried defending the travellers here before in a previous incarnation. Utterly pointless exercise. I don't know who is going to save the travellers from Ireland, but it may not be within my lifetime, or at least for many years to come.

There is an unbelievable, grotesque absence of shame in the hate, hate, hate that is directed at our own people, the travellers.

Dont they claim to be 'their own people' and hold their culture as granting them some form of amnesty from the norms the rest of us must live by?

Arbiter of Good Taste

5live wrote: »

Its definitely distasteful.

But as you said, its the only possible solution that anyone has put forward.

I would have huge concerns about doing so, however. The history of Aboriginal children in Australis being removed from their families to be 'normalised' to European standards is not a pretty tale:(

I was actually thinking about the Aboriginal issue when writing my last post. Prime example of that policy not working. Still many societal problems for aborigines which you don't see unless you leave the major metropolitan centres.

Ihatecuddles

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

You come across as an educated Gal, what was your schooling history?

I grew up in foster care, with a settled family! So education was important.

Its only the last couple of years that I've met most of my family, wish I hadn't bothered!

Arbiter of Good Taste

mauzo! wrote: »

I grew up in foster care, with a settled family! So education was important.

Its only the last couple of years that I've met most of my family, wish I hadn't bothered!

Oh dear. That must be tough for you. Hope in the future you can have some kind of relationship with your family (if you want to)

mikom

Meanwhile in Mullingar..........

Boxer Nevin's career in doubt after gang attack
Olympic medallist set upon at Mullingar home

THE boxing career of Olympic hero John Joe Nevin hung in the balance last night after he sustained a broken leg in a vicious assault by a gang of men at his Mullingar home.

The attack on Nevin, who won silver for Ireland at the London Olympics, has been linked to a personal dispute.
But it has raised fears that long-simmering tensions between a number of Traveller families in the midlands will erupt again.


Nevin's fame means he has become a target for attacks from jealous rivals. A gang damaged his BMW car and attacked his house in 2012.


There has long been a three-way feud between the Quinn, McDonagh and Nevin families from Mullingar, Co Westmeath. In 2008, tensions between two families turned violent when they engaged in a full-scale riot involving 200 people in the Dalton Park housing estate in the town. The row flared up after one Traveller family lost a large amount of cash following a bare-knuckle fight. The dispute, which had been running for years, involved petrol bombs, swords, golf clubs and other missiles.



http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/boxer-nevins-career-in-doubt-after-gang-attack-30159189.html

Femme_Fatale

old_aussie wrote: »

reeks of "They (travellers)can be where they want, just as long as they're not in my street"

What? No it doesn't. Even the OP stopped repeating "It's such NIMBY-ism" over and over ages back.
You're obviously just saying the above for the sake of it, since there are reams and reams of posts contradicting your pointless comment.

Your concern for travellers isn't convincing anyway; lots of us have seen what you've written here about muslims.

Muise...

garp wrote: »

I will help you out.
One word on google search.
Pogrom.. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogrom

add in a city
Limerick Pogrom... >>> http://irishecho.com/2011/02/98-years-ago-the-limerick-pogrom-2/

Job done..

I know about that, and even without clicking the links I know it happened long before the Nazis were around. 1904, right? I'm not clicking as despite it being a shameful episode, I also know that it doesn't back up Gatling's ridiculous post about Jews being badly treated here after WW2 while Nazis were celebrities.

iguana

bumper234 wrote: »

If i refuse to send my children to school then i will be dragged before the courts to explain why they are not in school.

No you won't. The right to home educate is enshrined in the Irish constitution. As long as you can show that your children are learning you have no obligation whatsoever to send them to school. If you do send them to school, you have every right to withdraw them at any point and continue their education at home.

Femme_Fatale

But if there's no evidence of home-schooling and School Attendance has to get involved aren't settled parents subject to being fined?

iguana

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

But if there's no evidence of home-schooling and School Attendance has to get involved aren't settled parents subject to being fined?

If the child isn't actually enrolled in a school then School Attendance doesn't apply at all. It's only when a child is currently enrolled that truancy becomes an issue, if the parents formally withdraw the child there can not be a truancy issue. And there is actually very little the state can do to see if children are being educated. Home educating families are expected to register with the Child and Family Agency, formerly the NEWB, but there is a case been taken to the Supreme Court about whether or not they can be required to do so, as such an expectation may be in contravention of the constitution. Even when registered the powers of the CFA are extremely limited, they can't test the children and there is no required standard to which children must be required. If my child was older and I was home educating and a CFA inspector came into my home, the evidence of reading materials about the house and a quick chat with a child who appears happy and cared for would be more than enough for them to leave me alone.

I agree that many/most Travellers are not held to the legal standards of everyone else and I think that should change. There is a halting site near a supermarket I use a lot and I know that if I treated my child like the children I can see in and around the site, I would and should have social services intervening for his safety and well being. And as for the way their poor animals live - :mad: I believe that there should be a large scale movement by our law keepers to ensure the wellbeing and safety of the children and animals of the travellers and if that means huge numbers of the animals are confiscated and many of the children taken into foster care, then that should happen. They shouldn't be treated unfairly but letting them behave the way many do with regards to their children is in actuality treating them unfairly as those children do not have the protections that settled children do.

Femme_Fatale

Exactly. The children can't help what they were born into.

bumper234

iguana wrote: »

No you won't. The right to home educate is enshrined in the Irish constitution. As long as you can show that your children are learning you have no obligation whatsoever to send them to school. If you do send them to school, you have every right to withdraw them at any point and continue their education at home.

Yeah because all travelers choose to home school their children:rolleyes:

Anyway as i said, non travelers don't send their kids to school they end up in front of the judge.


Killarney court hears woman faces jail over childs 100% absenteeism from school

http://www.radiokerry.ie/news/killarney-court-hears-woman-faces-jail-over-childs-100-absenteeism-from-school/

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/primary_and_post_primary_education/attendance_and_discipline_in_schools/school_attendance.html

Responsibilities and duties of parents

Under the Education Welfare Act 2000 parents must inform the school if their children will be absent from school on a school day and the reason for the absence, for example, illness. It is best to do this in writing. The NEWB strongly advises against taking children out of school to go on holiday during term-time.

Parents and guardians have a legal obligation to ensure that their child attends a school or otherwise receives an education. If the NEWB considers that a parent is failing in his or her obligation, it must send the parent a School Attendance Notice warning that legal action would follow if the child did not attend school regularly. Before doing this, it must make reasonable efforts to consult with the parents and the child. If the parent fails to comply, he or she may be prosecuted. If convicted, the parent may be fined €634.87 and/or imprisoned for a month and fined €253.95 for each subsequent day that he or she fails to send the child to school. If the parent claims that suitable alternative education is being provided, he or she must prove this. It will be a defence for the parents to show that they have made all reasonable efforts to send the child to school - in such cases, the Health Service Executive (HSE) must be informed.

The NEWB leaflet for parents Don't let your child miss out is available in 18 languages.

Education outside the school system

The Minister may prescribe minimum standards of education for those educated outside the recognised school system.

The NEWB is obliged to maintain a register of children who are receiving education but not attending a recognised school. In effect, this register will show the names of children who are being educated at home or in a non-recognised school - it is not a register of school dropouts.

Parents whose children are not attending a recognised school must register their child with the NEWB. If the parent agrees, the NEWB will then investigate the educational arrangements that have been made for the child and judge whether or not the child is receiving the prescribed minimum education. If the NEWB is satisfied, it may enter the child's name on the register.

If the NEWB is not satisfied, it may either:

Require the parents to comply with its requirements in order to ensure that the child receives the prescribed minimum education and then register the child, orRefuse to register the child.

There are also provisions for removing a child's name from the register

Obligation to attend school

Parents do not have to send their children to a recognised school if:

The child is on the register described aboveParents have made an application have their child included on the register but a decision has not been made or an appeal is pendingThe child is being educated outside the stateThere is a good reason for the child not attending school

If the NEWB refuses to register a child, or requires an undertaking from a parent or removes a child from the register, the parent may appeal to the Minister. The Minister will appoint an appeal committee, which may decide to register the child, refuse to register the child or require an undertaking.

Where no appeal is brought, the NEWB must make every reasonable effort to have the child in question enrolled in another school. If this fails, the NEWB must ensure that the child receives a prescribed minimum education

I wonder how many traveler children are registered as home schooled?

iguana

bumper234 wrote: »

Anyway as i said, non travelers don't send their kids to school they end up in front of the judge.


Killarney court hears woman faces jail over childs 100% absenteeism from school

http://www.radiokerry.ie/news/killarney-court-hears-woman-faces-jail-over-childs-100-absenteeism-from-school/

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/primary_and_post_primary_education/attendance_and_discipline_in_schools/school_attendance.html




I wonder how many traveler children are registered as home schooled?

The first link is about absenteeism, which is different from not being enrolled in a school. The other information is outdated as the NEWB, as I've already stated, is now the CFA and the other requirements listed are likely to be in contravention of our constitution and a case is being prepared to challenge them at supreme court level. There is no requirement whatsoever to send your children to school in this country, so stating that you would be in trouble of you don't is erroneous. That doesn't mean that Traveller children are being well-educated at home. Some may be but I doubt they are in the majority and agree that all parents should be held to the same minimum standards when it comes to their children's education and welfare and that there is likely a disproportionate number of Traveller children not receiving those minimum standards.