Are we in 1930's Mississippi?

SEPT 23 1989

Brenda is on Liveline now

LuckyLloyd

If you're liberal, for gender equality and pro the environment how do you reconcile yourself to a support of Traveller issues?

Foxhound38

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

If you're liberal, for gender equality and pro the environment how do you reconcile yourself to a support of Traveller issues?

Cognative dissonance

Newstalk taking about Nevins assault in Mullingar,

J_E

Do 21st century travellers in UK/Ireland even represent the Roma community at large? There's a lack of willingness to integrate with society yet many want the perks of a modern society at the same time. I can't comment on this issue with 100% confidence, not having a lot of direct experience (albeit the little I had was negative), but that's just the first thing that comes into my head. I am more concerned about the daughters who are pulled out of education early because they are seen as the stay-at-home housekeepers. That's a serious issue that needs addressing, because everyone deserves a proper education no matter where you come from or family expectations of you.

That letter was probably not the most tactful approach but the community obviously had an issue, and it got solved. There's a lot of nasty prejudice mixed in but quite a lot of this is based on real life issues, not pure stereotyping.

Have to remember, they're human beings all the same, it's important to discuss issues of anti-social behaviour which seems fairly prevalent among the community, but let's not use that as license go slinging mud for the sake of it. There's a lot to be said for reasonable discussion.

To be honest, the one thing that resonates through to me is education, or more, the lack of it. More likely to commit crime, get stuck in a rut, etc. and it seems to be a value not placed as high in the community.

billymitchell

Martin Collins from Pavee Point was just on Joe Duffy complaining that there are a disproportionate amount of travellers in the Irish prison system due to racism in the Irish justice system. He seemed pretty adamant that this is the reason for so many travellers being in prison, nothing to do that there might be a higher proportion of travellers that commit crime.
But that would probably be the fault of the system too, because he seems to find it easier to point the finger and blame other people for the problems within the traveller community rather than take responsibility for their own actions

Femme_Fatale

Being truly openminded would be recognising the problems prevalent in particular societies (much of which are hurting people within such societies) - failure to acknowledge these realities so as not to look like a bigot uses a similar approach to those on the far right refusing to acknowledge not all travellers are "scum" (so as not to look "liberal").

Femme_Fatale

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Like the pair in this sorry saga, who obeyed a "troubled" teenager's instructions to pull in at a petrol station, and then watched without intervening as he kicked an innocent boy's head 65 times, leaving him with permanent brain damage? Useless

A whole two of them means social workers are useless?

J_E

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Being truly openminded would be recognising the problems prevalent in particular societies (much of which are hurting people within such societies) - failure to acknowledge these realities so as not to look like a bigot uses a similar approach to those on the far right refusing to acknowledge not all travellers are "scum" (so as not to look "liberal").

Exactly - if people stopped trying to fit into the 'right' or 'wrong' view and just discussed the problems objectively, maybe we could try to get somewhere. Brenda Power is obviously never going to be 100% rational about the issue, neither will Pavee Point.

FTA69

At the end of the day Martin Collins is an advocate for Travellers whose responsibility is to articulate the needs of Travellers and outline the issues they face; he isn't going to allow himself to be wheeled out to tar all Travellers as criminals or to conform to that agenda, and rightly so. There's plenty of anti-racism campaigners in London, they're not going to bang on about black crack dealers are they?

Fukuyama

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but I thought I'd bring up the costs of 'policing' what is, in effect, a sector of society that don't want anything to do with law and order.

If I (or most people) committed a crime, all it'd take is a garda to say "you're under arrest" and that'd be that.

Very often it's impossible for rural and small garda stations to police these guys because a dozen or more gardaí are often needed to even enter a site/housing development when there's disturbances. And, I think an individual garda would be right to refuse an order to do so alone or in small numbers for their own safety.

So a site set up just outside of some rural town are in effect beyond the reach of the law simply because the garda don't have enough manpower to police it.

It's not uncommon either for the public order units to be called in at big events like funerals, weddings, confirmations and so on.

billymitchell

FTA69 wrote: »

At the end of the day Martin Collins is an advocate for Travellers whose responsibility is to articulate the needs of Travellers and outline the issues they face; he isn't going to allow himself to be wheeled out to tar all Travellers as criminals or to conform to that agenda, and rightly so. There's plenty of anti-racism campaigners in London, they're not going to bang on about black crack dealers are they?

I think Martin Collins would serve the traveller community better if he came out and admitted there is a big problem within the traveller community with anti social behaviour, and said that him in Pavee point and other traveller organisations are trying hard to fix that. He would also benefit if he stopped this "us against the system" shtick he has been pedalling for years, and tried to work with the system to fix the issues of the community he represents.

awec

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Being truly openminded would be recognising the problems prevalent in particular societies (much of which are hurting people within such societies) - failure to acknowledge these realities so as not to look like a bigot uses a similar approach to those on the far right refusing to acknowledge not all travellers are "scum" (so as not to look "liberal").

Very well said.

J_E

billymitchell wrote: »

I think Martin Collins would serve the traveller community better if he came out and admitted there is a big problem within the traveller community with anti social behaviour, and said that him in Pavee point and other traveller organisations are trying hard to fix that. He would also benefit if he stopped this "us against the system" shtick he has been pedalling for years, and tried to work with the system to fix the issues of the community he represents.

Given your avatar I'm not exactly confident in your recommendations, but anyway, the point FTA69 made was fairly clear - if you're the representative of an advocacy group, the last thing you are going to do is paint the group in a negative light. That's how it is. There is bias on both sides in that regard...

FTA69

billymitchell wrote: »

I think Martin Collins would serve the traveller community better if he came out and admitted there is a big problem within the traveller community with anti social behaviour, and said that him in Pavee point and other traveller organisations are trying hard to fix that. He would also benefit if he stopped this "us against the system" shtick he has been pedalling for years, and tried to work with the system to fix the issues of the community he represents.

Martin Collins has said time and time again that those involved in lawbreaking should be arrested and charged the same as anyone else. He has never defended those involved in crime at all. As I said above, his job isn't to come out and join those voices who would seek to portray Travellers as inherently criminal. Likewise Pavee Point have done great work in mediating between feuding families as well as assisting other advocacy and empowerment groups.

RainMaker

billymitchell wrote: »

Martin Collins from Pavee Point was just on Joe Duffy complaining that there are a disproportionate amount of travellers in the Irish prison system due to racism in the Irish justice system. He seemed pretty adamant that this is the reason for so many travellers being in prison, nothing to do that there might be a higher proportion of travellers that commit crime...

FTA69 wrote: »

Martin Collins has said time and time again that those involved in lawbreaking should be arrested and charged the same as anyone else. He has never defended those involved in crime at all...

Seems like a bit of a conflict there - he wants those who commit crime prosecuted, but when they are he blames the racist Irish justice system?

FTA69

There's a medium between the two. It has been proven that the police in London and aspects of the British judicial system were inherently racist. That doesn't mean that there are no black people committing crime either.

I don't speak for Pavee Point, but I imagine their position is that the cops and judges often allow themselves to have a coloured view of Travellers when they should be impartial; I don't think they're saying there are no Pavee people committing crime whatsoever.

Also, I never heard Martin Collins deny that there were criminal Travellers; rather that they don't represent all Travelling people and he's right in saying that. At the end of the day it's the cops' job to arrest criminals, not Pavee Point.

Foxhound38

Martin Collins is nobodies fool - he's well aware of the problems facing his community. He also has a job to do in terms of advocating for a specific group of people - he's not an objective observer nor can he be. The fact is that he does his job quite well - and does a lot of behind the scenes mediation work to keep tensions down within the travelling community.

I know people who work and have worked for Collins and PP and they would be the first to tell you that only a fool would take their spin on it as gospel, the same as it would take a fool to believe Brenda Powers bigotted perspective on it as gospel.

The truth, as with many things is somewhere in the middle. Thuggery exists in the travelling community, but it's not inherent to it. There is good and bad there. The problems (and there are problems) within and emanating from that community are partially down to (to call a spade a spade) lack of social pressure within the travelling community to adhere to legal and social norms like the rest of us on the one hand, and lack of interest in the welfare of travellers combined with unwillingness to enforce certain standards of citizenship on them from the official and settled community on the other.

It is time both communities stopped ignoring each other in this sense, and it will take a meeting half way from both. Travellers need to stop making excuses for themselves, but so do we.

Again, I'm convinced one generation mostly brought to leaving cert level or above academically (dragged there kicking and screaming if necessary) is the silver bullet needed to start the process here. Nobody would lose.

swimming in a sea

I've a real problem with any able bodied person getting a free house. I was brought up probably lower middle class with the thought that I could only get a house by paying for it.

Sh*t I pay rent every month and try to save a bit for a deposit should I see some place decent that I can afford, Why bother! I should just put my hand in the air and look for a handout like a layabout.

efb

swimming in a sea wrote: »

I've a real problem with any able bodied person getting a free house. I was brought up probably lower middle class with the thought that I could only get a house by paying for it.

Sh*t I pay rent every month and try to save a bit for a deposit should I see some place decent that I can afford, Why bother! I should just put my hand in the air and look for a handout like a layabout.

What should be done with people that can't afford housing?

Hank Scorpio

lob it in there boss

Hank Scorpio

efb wrote: »

What should be done with people that can't afford housing?

Get a job

Deise Vu

RainMaker wrote: »

Seems like a bit of a conflict there - he wants those who commit crime prosecuted, but when they are he blames the racist Irish justice system?

This is the problem with Martin Collins and Pavee Point. When confronted with obvious criminality from his community he will make a flimsy apology followed by a long list of gripes excusing that criminality. It was the Ian Paisley / Unionist approach to Loyalist atrocities. "That's terrible but it wouldn't happen if......." I'm afraid it doesn't wash with me. Martin and PP would be better served showing where their community makes a positive contribution to society at large. It shouldn't take too long to compile a list.

Galwayguy35

If they want a house, let them take the one that is offered, not refuse it because they want to live beside Charlie and Winnie next door.

And if they wreck it kick them out.

efb

nuxxx wrote: »

Get a job

It's that easy???,

mikom

Are we in 1930's Mississippi?

Ask the Time Travellers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TakfNbFuNA

J_E

nuxxx wrote: »

Get a job

I've got an education and still can't get a job easily at all - are you saying those who left school earlier, have an undesirable image associated with them and little experience have any chance? Bit of a silly answer.

Cienciano

Having just read the entire thread, over 400 posts, I have to laugh.
the main supporter of travellers is efb, and his responses remind me of the devout christians in athiest threads. Ignore questions, ignore peoples statements, strawman arguments, completely irrelevant comparisons and when people take apart your posts just either ignore the post or just call the person racist. Here's a nice example:

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Generally, about 4 times a year Mullingar Hospital where my wife works gets locked down when a travellers feud spill over into the hospital corridors with weapons being used and my wife getting half pepper sprayed in the cross fire trying to help these people. She was half an hour late collecting the kids from Creche and got a fine we cant afford to pay just now.
she was there when John Joe Nevin was brought in. His leg wasn't just broken, it was pulped with protruding bone. His other leg is also broken. The hospital got locked down then as well.
Hows that for a generalisation?

efb wrote: »

My understanding, he was in Tullamore hospital. I was there visiting my mother. No lockdown

efb wrote: »

I never said he was lying. But there was no lockdown in Tullamore

Quick question to anyone that thinks travellers are the exact same as settled people and anything negative about them is just discrimination: Would you live in a halting site?
Here's a random one I just happen to drive past a lot
http://goo.gl/maps/OTbZT
Would you be happy to park your car there, live in there, raise your kids there etc

Ghost Buster

Cydoniac wrote: »

I've got an education and still can't get a job easily at all - are you saying those who left school earlier, have associated an undesirable image with them and little experience have any chance? Bit of a silly answer.

FYP

Femme_Fatale

efb wrote: »

It's that easy???,

No, it isn't that easy of course. "Get a job" is a pointless response and the type of commentary of no use in these discussions.