Are we in 1930's Mississippi?

J_E

Ghost Buster wrote: »

FYP

Fair enough, but let's remember that there are probably many people in the community who have a chance to do something great with their life if it weren't for certain traditions limiting their potential and sending them back into the endless cycle.

I'm sure at one point Irish people were probably considered too drunk and stupid to do anything worthwhile.

Cienciano

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

No, it isn't that easy of course. "Get a job" is a pointless response and the type of commentary of no use in these discussions.

It's a bit of a rough point, but a valid one too - sort of.
10% of the general population are unemployed, but 85% of travellers are unemployed. Maybe getting work wouldn't be a bad idea?
And maybe if more than 1% of travellers went on to get 3rd level education they'd have a higher employment rate? I suppose we'll be told they don't go on to 3rd level education because the colleges and universitys are racist :pac:

Ghost Buster

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

No, it isn't that easy of course. "Get a job" is a pointless response and the type of commentary of no use in these discussions.

How about "Look into if they have ever tried to get a job or engage with or contribute to the society they expect to be pandered to by.

Femme_Fatale

But who the heck is gonna hire them.

KilOit

Work in a hospital and when a older traveller is sick the security go into high alert and even close the shop on the grounds because of theft. Call it what you will, just saying what i see first hand.

mikom

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

But who the heck is gonna hire them.

Do you not remember Nidge hiring yer man to make the pipe bomb for him.

http://cdn3.independent.ie/incoming/article29832255.ece/9c951/ALTERNATES/h342/In+a+scene+from+Love+Hate.jpg

pablo128

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

But who the heck is gonna hire them.

No-one, if they won't apply for the jobs in the first place.

Femme_Fatale

Cienciano wrote: »

I suppose we'll be told they don't go on to 3rd level education because the colleges and universitys are racist :pac:

Moreso that education is not valued in their community, and this needs to change, but how...

SEPT 23 1989

you think they want to work in a job where you pay tax and operate inside the law:pac:

Fukuyama

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

But who the heck is gonna hire them.

There are travelers that work. Like the rest of us, they were judged by the "content of their character", if you see what I'm saying.

There's a general opinion of travelers in Ireland, and from where I'm standing the group has brought it upon themselves. But when it boils down to individual interactions most people judge travelers based on their actions as individuals.

Stavros Murphy

Cydoniac wrote: »

I've got an education and still can't get a job easily at all - are you saying those who left school earlier, have an undesirable image associated with them and little experience have any chance? Bit of a silly answer.

They've a good chance of getting a house, that's for sure. More than a lot of graduates struggling to work their way up and people struggling in minimum wage jobs. Why bother? Sure do nothing, create mayhem and get one for free.

baldy_brady

traveller spokesperson on rte radio right now , said that brenda power should be removed from her possition at the daily mail

Stavros Murphy

baldy_brady wrote: »

traveller spokesperson on rte radio right now , said that brenda power should be removed from her possition at the daily mail

But if she had kicked the shyte out of her cousin for a ten grand purse, that'd be game ball, right? LOL.

makeorbrake

Mr. Collins of Pavee Point is sickening! Every single time when I have heard him being interviewed - he downright refuses to accept responsibility for the fact that there exists within the travelling community a disproportionately higher level of criminal activity than in the wider populace.


When faced with this assertion, he comes back with two points;

1. There are criminals in the settled community - the traveller community is no different.

and

2. He claims that there are a disproportionate number of travellers incarcerated in the irish prison system because of discrimination.


I'm sorry - but NOBODY believes this nonsense! If he were to provide REAL leadership, he would acknowledge this - and talk in terms of how his organisation can work towards addressing it. He could then talk in terms of what he/they need from society, the government, the authorities, etc, etc - to help to address this. However, when he won't fess up in the first instance, then how is this ever going to happen!!

On rte radio earlier today (Wednesday), it was put to him that he and his organisation should have showed leadership re. the malicious attack on John Joe Nevin - by releasing a statement saying that this behaviour was unacceptable. He downright refused to accept any responsibility of this sort - and I'm sorry but that's 1000% WRONG!

anncoates

nuxxx wrote: »

Get a job

It's a little disingenuous to deny that travellers that do choose to work don't face labour - and other - discrimination or that indeed being brought up in the traveller culture (with a small C) doesn't place them in a massive generational cycle of disadvantage, even more so than in settled disadvantaged communities.

It's as unfair to blithely tell a traveller to just 'get a degree/job' as it is to say it to somebody from a settled disadvantaged area.

As with anything, there is a balance to be struck between understanding generational disadvantage and elective agency. That means it's not useful to justify everything with social disadvantage but nor is it useful to ignore it and label everybody as scum.

I think the point of this whole discussion is not to be prejudicial but to accept that social issues exist in the traveller community and perhaps they do to a disproportionate extent. The issues have to be understood, but also challenged and tackled in (in all communities) and not excused in one community because of arbitrary nostrums of 'ethnicity'.

And also, no person should feel like a bigot because they don't want to risk (and it is a definably higher if still small risk) living - and raising children - beside communities whose social issues are more likely to be evident and to be tolerated.

Tony EH

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

No, it isn't that easy of course. "Get a job" is a pointless response and the type of commentary of no use in these discussions.

Agreed, its overly simplistic efficiency is exceeded only by its mind numbing stupidity. Especially when one considers the fact that even if a job is attained, it's quite often still not enough to secure a mortgage.

Muise...

anncoates wrote: »

It's a little disingenuous to deny that travellers that do choose to work don't face labour - and other - discrimination or that indeed being brought up in the traveller culture (with a small C) doesn't place them in a massive generational cycle of disadvantage, even more so than in settled disadvantaged communities.

It's as unfair to blithely tell a traveller to just 'get a degree/job' as it is to say it to somebody from a settled disadvantaged area.

As with anything, there is a balance to be struck between understanding generational disadvantage and elective agency. That means it's not useful to justify everything with social disadvantage but nor is it useful to ignore it and label everybody as scum.

I think the point of this whole discussion is not to be prejudicial but to accept that social issues exist in the traveller community and perhaps they do to a disproportionate extent. The issues have to be understood, but also challenged and tackled in (in all communities) and not excused in one community because of arbitrary nostrums of 'ethnicity'.

And also, no person should feel like a bigot because they don't want to risk (and it is a definably higher if still small risk) living - and raising children - beside communities whose social issues are more likely to be evident and to be tolerated.

G'way you sham, with your sense-talkin', we've the pitchforks lit!

WilyCoyote

Muise... wrote: »

G'way you sham, with your sense-talkin', we've the pitchforks lit!

Is that Tuam cant or Rathkeale, Muise?

FTA69

anncoates wrote: »

As with anything, there is a balance to be struck between understanding generational disadvantage and elective agency.

In my experience there are also people who seek to simplify the Traveller issue and portray it as the settled community actively seeking to exclude a people who are desperate to integrate. To be honest, the broader division between the two communities is also as a result of Travellers themselves electing to maintain that distance.

Curly Judge

Did anybody happen to listen to this unopposed and unchallenged whinge fest last night?

http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=9%3A20560432%3A0%3A%3A

The presenter said a number of times that she had sought politicians to come on to offer counter proposals but that none were available. She doesn;t seem to have searched too hard as there was no opposing view offered from any journalist or indeed any other type of commentator.
She herself seems to have lost her tongue as far as asking any type of contrary question and just let the guff flow freely from the Roma and Traveller fans.
An altogether dreadful piece of broadcasting!

Cian92

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

But who the heck is gonna hire them.

This doesn't wash with me. During the boom times where I was working would take anyone! There was still a very high rate of unemployment in the traveller community. Did someone say 86% difficult job market or not 86% is huge.

There are plenty of jobs that don't require education. I work with many people who never went to Secondary school they still manage to work and pay their taxes. Heck I can tell you if a traveller applied for a job now where I work they would get it. They find it difficult to get workers and whoever applied would be working in the morning.

Femme_Fatale

Cian92 wrote: »

This doesn't wash with me. During the boom times where I was working would take anyone! There was still a very high rate of unemployment in the traveller community. Did someone say 86% difficult job market or not 86% is huge.

There are plenty of jobs that don't require education. I work with many people who never went to Secondary school they still manage to work and pay their taxes. Heck I can tell you if a traveller applied for a job now where I work they would get it. They find it difficult to get workers and whoever applied would be working in the morning.

You're not taking into account the fear of travellers and their families.

Stavros Murphy

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

You're not taking into account the fear of travellers and their families.

What fear? According to some, they're just misunderstood.

Femme_Fatale

Does that change that lots of people are not comfortable with the idea of dealing with them? Going by this thread, no.

It can't be both ways. If you're going to be saying "Would you live next door to a traveller?" then consistency would dictate that you'd also think "Would a person employ a traveller?"

Cian92

Cian92 wrote: »

This doesn't wash with me. During the boom times where I was working would take anyone! There was still a very high rate of unemployment in the traveller community. Did someone say 86% difficult job market or not 86% is huge.

There are plenty of jobs that don't require education. I work with many people who never went to Secondary school they still manage to work and pay their taxes. Heck I can tell you if a traveller applied for a job now where I work they would get it. They find it difficult to get workers and whoever applied would be working in the morning.

Gizza job?

deere_john

Curly Judge wrote: »

Did anybody happen to listen to this unopposed and unchallenged whinge fest last night?

http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=9%3A20560432%3A0%3A%3A

The presenter said a number of times that she had sought politicians to come on to offer counter proposals but that none were available. She doesn;t seem to have searched too hard as there was no opposing view offered from any journalist or indeed any other type of commentator.
She herself seems to have lost her tongue as far as asking any type of contrary question and just let the guff flow freely from the Roma and Traveller fans.
An altogether dreadful piece of broadcasting!

heard it , one panelist said brenda power should be fired from her job at the daily mail

6781

I'd love to know on average per thousand how many travellers have a criminal record compared to other groups in Ireland.

buckinit

Understandably, I can see why someone wouldn't like the idea of a Traveling family to live next to them or close by in neighborhood. Thieving, domestic abuse ,fighting etc.

The approach the Cllr. used here in the letter was quiet unprofessional. I'm not one for sticking up for members of the traveling community as like many Irish people have had bad experiences with them before, however this idea that people feel free to put them down like the message sent out in the letter, I feel is wrong.

Again, like many Irish people I've had many bad experiences with black people in Ireland. The same reason why, like the traveling community, I'd understand why many people wouldn't want to live beside members of the black community too. Sad thing is, if the Cllr had placed a message stating homes that where going to be supplied to African families have been bought and will no longer be used to house them, the outcome of this thread would be completely different.
Even though crime rates amongst both the African and Traveling community are relatively high (higher on average in Traveler Community) compared to other "ethnic" groups, we still see it "ok" to criticise the traveler community openly as opposed to criticising the African community. Both are technically demographic minorities and should be looked at equally rather than mollycoddling one and not the other.

FTA69

buckinit wrote: »

Even though crime rates amongst both the African and Traveling community are relatively high (higher on average in Traveler Community) compared to other "ethnic" groups, we still see it "ok" to criticise the traveler community openly as opposed to criticising the African community. Both are technically demographic minorities and should be looked at equally rather than mollycoddling one and not the other.

Where are you getting this sh*te from?

Ghost Buster

buckinit wrote: »

Understandably, I can see why someone wouldn't like the idea of a Traveling family to live next to them or close by in neighborhood. Thieving, domestic abuse ,fighting etc.

The approach the Cllr. used here in the letter was quiet unprofessional. I'm not one for sticking up for members of the traveling community as like many Irish people have had bad experiences with them before, however this idea that people feel free to put them down like the message sent out in the letter, I feel is wrong.

Again, like many Irish people I've had many bad experiences with black people in Ireland. The same reason why, like the traveling community, I'd understand why many people wouldn't want to live beside members of the black community too. Sad thing is, if the Cllr had placed a message stating homes that where going to be supplied to African families have been bought and will no longer be used to house them, the outcome of this thread would be completely different.
Even though crime rates amongst both the African and Traveling community are relatively high (higher on average in Traveler Community) compared to other "ethnic" groups, we still see it "ok" to criticise the traveler community openly as opposed to criticising the African community. Both are technically demographic minorities and should be looked at equally rather than mollycoddling one and not the other.

I want to start off by asking you where you are getting your stats on the crime rate amongst the black African emigrant community from?
I cannot ever recall hearing any crime stats on this! A quick google search shows nothing.
On a purely anecdotal but first hand level I have to say that all my dealings with the black community here in typical small town Ireland has been at worst neutral and at best very positive. I find the black community here either keep to them selves but are absolutely mannerly with you if you are mannerly with them OR they are wonderful at joining in with the community. I have dealt with them in local theatre, music sessions and most recently in St Patricks Day parades. The fact that they meticulously send their kids to school contributes to this I reckon.
Also the black community are here because they are actively trying to change their situation. The total opposite is true with the white Irish/Europeans we call travellers.