Are we in 1930's Mississippi?

FTA69

buckinit wrote: »

The same reason why, like the traveling community, I'd understand why many people wouldn't want to live beside members of the black community too.

It's actually disheartening to see this level of thick ignorance in Ireland still.

dickface

"The incarceration rate of black males was over 6 times higher than that of white males, with a rate of 4,749 per 100,000 US residents."
"According to the US Department of Justice, blacks accounted for 52.5% of homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with whites 45.3% and Native Americans and Asians 2.2%. The offending rate for blacks was almost 8 times higher than whites, and the victim rate 6 times higher."
"According to the FBI Uniform Crime Reports, in the year 2008 black youths, who make up 16% of the youth population, accounted for 52% of juvenile violent crime arrests, including 58.5% of youth arrests for homicide and 67% for robbery. Black youths were overrepresented in all offense categories except DUI, liquor laws and drunkenness."

Some snippets from this wikipedia page:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States

Now since many boards members think it is fair to hold a prejudice against every traveller because of a "disproportionate number do this and that" is it now fair for , say, americans or any one else to hold a prejudice against black americans considering these statistics. It seems to me they are violent aggressive people with no place in the civilised world. right?

Ghost Buster

FTA69 wrote: »

It's actually disheartening to see this level of thick ignorance in Ireland still.

buckinit wrote: »

Understandably, I can see why someone wouldn't like the idea of a Traveling family to live next to them or close by in neighborhood. Thieving, domestic abuse ,fighting etc.

.

Again, just a personal anecdote but i live in a rural community. My national school has a catchment area (Parish!) of about 10km. There is one settled traveller family about 8km away from me and even at that distance we know it. Regular Gardai presence. Steel mesh on the windows, rubbish strewn in the surrounding hedges, security cameras, a few feuds with the vans ripping up and down our bothareens in the small hours and the kids are ferral.
There are several black families in the area. We only know this as their kids go to the local school. They certainly dont engage in thieving, domestic abuse and fighting or at least not any more or more publicly than the rest of us!
OP..are you taking crap?

Annasopra

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Again, just a personal anecdote but i live in a rural community. My national school has a catchment area (Parish!) of about 10km. There is one settled traveller family about 8km away from me and even at that distance we know it. Regular Gardai presence. Steel mesh on the windows, rubbish strewn in the surrounding hedges, security cameras, a few feuds with the vans ripping up and down our bothareens in the small hours and the kids are ferral.
There are several black families in the area. We only know this as their kids go to the local school. They certainly dont engage in thieving, domestic abuse and fighting or at least not any more or more publicly than the rest of us!
OP..are you taking crap?

Wtf - you can acknowledge ridiculous racist generalisations against black people but not travellers.

Ghost Buster

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Wtf - you can acknowledge ridiculous racist generalisations against black people but not travellers.

I would if it were so.
I could lie if you like.
You and a few others here are skirting around and side stepping the basic fact that there is a huge problem in the traveller community and that its much much more than' a few bad eggs bringing the rest into disrepute'....
Stop being disingenuous and attacking others for telling it like it is.

Oh and Ps. They arent a race. they are white Irish Europeans.

awec

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Wtf - you can acknowledge ridiculous racist generalisations against black people but not travellers.

Are you still here trying to convince everyone there is not a big issue with the travelling community?

Ghost Buster

awec wrote: »

Are you still here trying to convince everyone there is not a big issue with the travelling community?

Yup. Thats exactly what he is doing. I give a genuine example of one traveller family 7km away living up to the 'racist generalisation' and Im either at fault or lying.
It gets irksome you know!

FTA69

Ghost Buster wrote: »

I would if it were so.
I could lie if you like.
You and a few others here are skirting around and side stepping the basic fact that there is a huge problem in the traveller community and that its much much more than' a few bad eggs bringing the rest into disrepute'....
Stop being disingenuous and attacking others for telling it like it is.

Oh and Ps. They arent a race. they are white Irish Europeans.

They're an ethnicity and racism encompasses discrimination based on someone's nationality or ethnicity.

UN:

the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin that has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.[25]

Ghost Buster

FTA69 wrote: »

They're an ethnicity and racism encompasses discrimination based on someone's nationality or ethnicity.

UN:

Grand. Changes nothing. If and Im saying if there were a huge problem within the black community with the majority being unemployed, not seeking work, into criminality, not educating their kids and doing nothing to better themn selves I would call it like it is. This wouldnt be racism , it would be honesty.

Annasopra

Ghost Buster wrote: »

I would if it were so.
I could lie if you like.
You and a few others here are skirting around and side stepping the basic fact that there is a huge problem in the traveller community and that its much much more than' a few bad eggs bringing the rest into disrepute'....
Stop being disingenuous and attacking others for telling it like it is.

Oh and Ps. They arent a race. they are white Irish Europeans.

Sorry but I will continue to call out racist generalisations when I see them. You could say "I'm calling it like it is"

Ghost Buster

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Sorry but I will continue to call out racist generalisations when I see them. You could say "I'm calling it like it is"

But youre wrong. This isnt a generalisation its a first hand example.
.........and stats dont lie.
Youre calling it the way you'd like it to be in your bleeding heart but you're wrong and telling a majority who live in the real world that they are bigots isnt very nice.

Annasopra

Ghost Buster wrote: »

But youre wrong. This isnt a generalisation its a first hand example.

its an anecdote that proves nothing

FTA69

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Grand. Changes nothing. If and Im saying if there were a huge problem within the black community with the majority being unemployed, not seeking work, into criminality, not educating their kids and doing nothing to better themn selves I would call it like it is. This wouldnt be racism , it would be honesty.

Some of your stats are correct i.e. the ones about unemployment, although I'd say most of them are doing some sort of work in the black economy (for a variety of reasons including self-employment and the fact nobody would hire them.) There is no statistics however to say that the majority of them are "into criminality".

I agree there are many Traveller criminals, but I see no reason to believe that the majority of Travellers are criminals.

Ghost Buster

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

an anecdote that proves nothing

They do when theres a lot of them. An awful lot of them and with statistics to back them up.
Your claim that everyone is generalising is at best an anecdote and at worst a lie.

Padraig Mor

FTA69 wrote: »

They're an ethnicity and racism encompasses discrimination based on someone's nationality or ethnicity.

Travellers are not recognised as a separate ethnicity in Ireland, despite the best efforts of their apologists.

FTA69

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Travellers are not recognised as a separate ethnicity in Ireland, despite the best efforts of their apologists.

They fit every international definition of an ethnic group.

awec

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Sorry but I will continue to call out racist generalisations when I see them. You could say "I'm calling it like it is"

Can you not just debate the point at hand without hiding behind the "racism" word?

You're happy enough to accept anecdotal evidence that support travellers (you have thanked such posts earlier in the thread) but suddenly it's unacceptable when the shoe is on the other foot.

How do you think travellers earned the reputation that they have? Do you think people just woke up one morning and decided they aren't to be trusted?

smoking_kills

FTA69 wrote: »

They fit every international definition of an ethnic group.

The Definition is so broad that's hardly a surprise, Language is one of the criteria for defining a ethnic group, so technically people who ONLY speak Irish are a ethnic minority.

Padraig Mor

FTA69 wrote: »

They fit every international definition of an ethnic group.

Their apologists would claim so. Many others would not agree.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

FTA69

Travelers want and choose to be outsiders. They specifically remove themselves from mainstream society; marry within their own culture, often consanguineously; and are resistant to integration with settled populations. This largely represents choice on their part rather than exclusion on society's part.

This is the fundamental of it really. As I said before, I deal with Travellers on a regular basis and have so throughout my life. While I've known many who participate eagerly in local community life I know plenty who don't at all. When you talk about the nomadic ones then they're pretty much completely at a distance. Even the ones I've known and got on with are similar, while I've been "friendly" with many Travellers I've never been "friends" with one. And that was down to them and their choice at the end of the day.

I do believe it is possible for Travellers to maintain their identity and also avail of things like education and there are plenty of Pavee people who hold that analysis as well. Advocacy groups like Pavee Point do a huge amount in promoting that, despite the sh*te that gets thrown at them as can be seen in this thread.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Pavee Point do have some valid arguments, but they completely undermine their own good work by not speaking out against the large amount of criminal activities which are directly linked to the travelers. I personally would have a lot more respect for the organisation if, for example, they strongly condemned fighting at traveler weddings and funerals. My home town used to go into lock down whenever a traveler funeral was held in the church. All pubs would close and guards were all over the streets. Trying to get publicans to close at any time is difficult, but as soon as travelers are in town its like prohibition has been introduced. They are obviously scared of the travelers, and with good reason. Could Pavee Point start addressing that issue and the myriad of others which are associated with travelers?

Ghost Buster

FTA69 wrote: »

They fit every international definition of an ethnic group.

So do people from Achill

Ghost Buster

FTA69 wrote: »

This is the fundamental of it really. As I said before, I deal with Travellers on a regular basis and have so throughout my life. While I've known many who participate eagerly in local community life I know plenty who don't at all. When you talk about the nomadic ones then they're pretty much completely at a distance. Even the ones I've known and got on with are similar, while I've been "friendly" with many Travellers I've never been "friends" with one. And that was down to them and their choice at the end of the day.

I do believe it is possible for Travellers to maintain their identity and also avail of things like education and there are plenty of Pavee people who hold that analysis as well. Advocacy groups like Pavee Point do a huge amount in promoting that, despite the sh*te that gets thrown at them as can be seen in this thread.

I used to as well. I once toured a play (Im a theatre tec/stage manager) written by a social worker about travellers. the adults were actors but there were traveller kids in the cast. The tour got pulled after six dates due to families in various towns and counties turning up and knocking seven shades out sh1te out of each other. I got a few digs and a trip to casualty and my transit had its windscreen put in as they assumed it was a travellers van.
Thats just me.
Ask any publican, hotelier, Garda or hospital worker (my wife. Look at previous posts of mine to read her pepper spray dealings!) of their experiences with travellers.

FTA69

Ghost Buster wrote: »

So do people from Achill

No they don't.

FTA69

Ghost Buster wrote: »

I used to as well. I once toured a play (Im a theatre tec/stage manager) written by a social worker about travellers. the adults were actors but there were traveller kids in the cast. The tour got pulled after six dates due to families in various towns and counties turning up and knocking seven shades out sh1te out of each other. I got a few digs and a trip to casualty and my transit had its windscreen put in as they assumed it was a travellers van.
Thats just me.
Ask any publican, hotelier, Garda or hospital worker (my wife. Look at previous posts of mine to read her pepper spray dealings!) of their experiences with travellers.

I'm not denying your experiences mate. I used to work as a doorman for years. While working in Puck Fair once I had a nail bomb of sorts thrown at me as well having to pull one off an elderly man who didn't step aside fast enough for him. This was a prominent criminal Traveller family from Tralee. I also had the world of sh*te with some of them in the place I grew up and ended up in more than one scrap with a few of them after they tried to rob me and a friend outside a petrol station in Mayfield.

However, I also boxed with Travellers who were well respected and dedicated athletes. Their families were often at local boxing events and were never anything other than courteous and polite. Once out putting up election posters a friend of mine fell off a ladder and cracked his head off the ground and a Traveller from a halting site in the estate drove him to hospital. I've also known Travellers who were universally respected as being good and decent people.

My contention on this thread is that individuals are responsible for themselves alone and that most Pavees don't fit the bill as ruthless manic criminals.

Ghost Buster

FTA69 wrote: »

No they don't.

They have as much a claim to it as travellers.
Unique culture and way of life, , genetically removed from general populations for centuries, had a unique version of Irish for centuries. Actually live on a different land mass!
I reckon if they needed special treatment then they and all of our islanders would have a good case!

FTA69

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Pavee Point do have some valid arguments, but they completely undermine their own good work by not speaking out against the large amount of criminal activities which are directly linked to the travelers.

Yawn. They aren't there to join the mass chorus of people portraying Travellers as inherently criminal. They are an advocacy and empowerment group, they aren't there to be wheeled out to agree with dickheads like Brenda Power to appease the consensus that they're a bunch of tramps.

They have constantly and unequivocally condemned all criminality and said the Guards should arrest and deal with all lawbreakers. End of story. It isn't the job of Pavee Point to enforce the law like.

I personally would have a lot more respect for the organisation if, for example, they strongly condemned fighting at traveler weddings and funerals.

See above.

anncoates

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

If you had extended your quote by a few lines, you'd have seen that I said we can't avoid the fact that elective choices are also at play although It's fair to say that a child born into that culture is instantly at more of a disadvantage than elsewhere in society.

As for 'dismantling' traveller culture, I also said that the issues in trawler culture should be addressed and tackled instead of being obfuscated by liberals and advocacy groups.

Ghost Buster

FTA69 wrote: »

I'm not denying your experiences mate. I used to work as a doorman for years. While working in Puck Fair once I had a nail bomb of sorts thrown at me as well having to pull one off an elderly man who didn't step aside fast enough for him. This was a prominent criminal Traveller family from Tralee. I also had the world of sh*te with some of them in the place I grew up and ended up in more than one scrap with a few of them after they tried to rob me and a friend outside a petrol station in Mayfield.

However, I also boxed with Travellers who were well respected and dedicated athletes. Their families were often at local boxing events and were never anything other than courteous and polite. Once out putting up election posters a friend of mine fell off a ladder and cracked his head off the ground and a Traveller from a halting site in the estate drove him to hospital. I've also known Travellers who were universally respected as being good and decent people.

My contention on this thread is that individuals are responsible for themselves alone and that most Pavees don't fit the bill as ruthless manic criminals.

Indeed. But Pavee Point totally deny that there is a grossly disproportionate level of antisocial activity in the traveller community and anyone who points out this fact is being labeled as racist. To which i say '**** off"