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Are we in 1930's Mississippi?

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    #512
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    FTA69 wrote: »
    donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »



    Yawn. They aren't there to join the mass chorus of people portraying Travellers as inherently criminal. They are an advocacy and empowerment group, they aren't there to be wheeled out to agree with dickheads like Brenda Power to appease the consensus that they're a bunch of tramps.

    They have constantly and unequivocally condemned all criminality and said the Guards should arrest and deal with all lawbreakers. End of story. It isn't the job of Pavee Point to enforce the law like.



    See above.
    Why is she a dick head for admitting home truths whilst Pavee Point arent for denying and avoiding them?


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    #513
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Because the article she wrote acts as if every Traveller goes around slash-hooking their brother. It speaks in gross generalisations as opposed to pointing out that it is again down to the individual. It portrays them as a homogenous group who act and think the same.

    In other words, it was a pile of offensive sh*te. Pavee Point on the other hand, recognise that people are individuals and should be blamed on that basis.


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    #514
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,025 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    FTA69 wrote: »
    Why is she a dick head for admitting home truths whilst Pavee Point arent for denying and avoiding them?

    Sexism :P ;)


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    #515
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,196 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    FTA69 wrote: »
    Because the article she wrote acts as if every Traveller goes around slash-hooking their brother. It speaks in gross generalisations as opposed to pointing out that it is again down to the individual. It portrays them as a homogenous group who act and think the same.

    In other words, it was a pile of offensive sh*te. Pavee Point on the other hand, recognise that people are individuals and should be blamed on that basis.

    I don't agree with Brenda Power on a lot of topics and her politics would be vastly different to mine, however her opinion piece recognises a lot of problems that exist with traveler "culture" and frankly, it NEEDS to be discussed by all quarters.

    Pavee Point and lobby groups of the same persuasion are just not interested in that discussion. They are only interested in closing it down.

    Their raison d'etre is to quash any discussion that reflects serious concerns that exist among people both within and without and as such their contribution is pretty worthless to the over all debate.

    Politically interested lobby groups are only interested in promoting items that enhance their standing and actively engage in minimisation of items that are less worthy of promotion. Their existence is geared toward marginalising debate and engaging in damage control when the negative aspects of their target interest raises its head.

    This is why their input is to be taken with a large pinch of salt. They do NOT bring an honest opinion to the table.

    Brenda Power, on the other hand, IS bring her honest and open opinions into the discussion. They're opinions that not everybody will agree with, but she has expressed them openly and have laid them out for people to agree or disagree with. She is open to debating the subject, a subject which affects a very large number of people in the country.

    Pavee Point's contribution is denial and whining to the Equality authority and the Irish Council for Civil Liberties and try to shut down the debate.

    Out of all the players involved here, Brenda Power is coming out as the most honest broker.

    And I never thought I'd ever hear myself say that.


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    #516
    smoking_kills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 488 ✭✭smoking_kills


    ..............


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    #517
    buckinit
    Registered Users Posts: 40 ✭buckinit


    dickface wrote: »
    "The incarceration rate of black males was over 6 times higher than that of white males, with a rate of 4,749 per 100,000 US residents."
    "According to the US Department of Justice, blacks accounted for 52.5% of homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with whites 45.3% and Native Americans and Asians 2.2%. The offending rate for blacks was almost 8 times higher than whites, and the victim rate 6 times higher."
    "According to the FBI Uniform Crime Reports, in the year 2008 black youths, who make up 16% of the youth population, accounted for 52% of juvenile violent crime arrests, including 58.5% of youth arrests for homicide and 67% for robbery. Black youths were overrepresented in all offense categories except DUI, liquor laws and drunkenness."

    Some snippets from this wikipedia page:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States

    Now since many boards members think it is fair to hold a prejudice against every traveller because of a "disproportionate number do this and that" is it now fair for , say, americans or any one else to hold a prejudice against black americans considering these statistics. It seems to me they are violent aggressive people with no place in the civilised world. right?

    Like the case of many posters here not wanting to live beside travelers families because of their association with anti-social behavior, American's not wanting to live beside black families is the exact same.


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    #518
    J_E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭J_E


    dickface wrote: »
    "The incarceration rate of black males was over 6 times higher than that of white males, with a rate of 4,749 per 100,000 US residents."
    "According to the US Department of Justice, blacks accounted for 52.5% of homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with whites 45.3% and Native Americans and Asians 2.2%. The offending rate for blacks was almost 8 times higher than whites, and the victim rate 6 times higher."

    ...It seems to me they are violent aggressive people with no place in the civilised world. right?
    Congrats, you pulled a US statistic, little correlation to Ireland. You forgot to mention the racial profiling and targeting that is rampant over in America, a place where prisons are very profitable and it's easy to politely 'cleanse' certain ethnic groups as long as the words 'war on drugs' or 'terrorism' are involved. Sigh


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    #519
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    But youre wrong. This isnt a generalisation its a first hand example.
    have you complained to the authorities about this family?
    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    .........and stats dont lie.
    anything can be made to lie if one has an agenda, including statistics
    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    Youre calling it the way you'd like it to be in your bleeding heart but you're wrong
    bleeding heart? you lose any credibility in your argument when you come out with that shight

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #520
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Padraig Mor wrote: »
    Travellers are not recognised as a separate ethnicity in Ireland, despite the best efforts of their apologists.
    apologists? what are they apologists for? the fact that travelers exist? well they do, get over it

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #521
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Padraig Mor wrote: »
    Their apologists would claim so.
    the UN? yeah, i'd take what they say over someone on a forum
    Padraig Mor wrote: »
    Many others would not agree.
    who, the lad in the pub? the UN say otherwise and what they say goes

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #522
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »
    Pavee Point do have some valid arguments, but they completely undermine their own good work by not speaking out against the large amount of criminal activities which are directly linked to the travelers. I personally would have a lot more respect for the organisation if, for example, they strongly condemned fighting at traveler weddings and funerals. My home town used to go into lock down whenever a traveler funeral was held in the church. All pubs would close and guards were all over the streets. Trying to get publicans to close at any time is difficult, but as soon as travelers are in town its like prohibition has been introduced. They are obviously scared of the travelers, and with good reason. Could Pavee Point start addressing that issue and the myriad of others which are associated with travelers?
    they do deal with the issues, but very few listen, they also work behind the sceenes as established in the thread all ready

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #523
    dickface
    Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭dickface


    Cydoniac wrote: »
    Congrats, you pulled a US statistic, little correlation to Ireland. You forgot to mention the racial profiling and targeting that is rampant over in America, a place where prisons are very profitable and it's easy to politely 'cleanse' certain ethnic groups as long as the words 'war on drugs' or 'terrorism' are involved. Sigh

    The comparison is valid, whites in america who do not want to live near blacks may talk about crime and anti-social behaviour. Similarly certain members of boards saying they don't want to live beside travellers because of crime, no jobs etc.... Only one of these groups is seen as racists/ignorant though...


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    #524
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    Indeed. But Pavee Point totally deny that there is a grossly disproportionate level of antisocial activity in the traveller community
    they don't, their just not going to go on about it all the time, they do work behind the sceenes to sort traveler issues so are not going to do or say anything that could risk further issues being caused to the travelers by the low rent in the settled community who clame to be saints even though their not and would be the first not to pay tax if they could and who probably do the old nixer on the side while on the dole (no thats not all people in the settled community of course but if we want to go on about traveler issues we need to take a look at ourselves also)

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #525
    Padraig Mor
    Registered Users Posts: 9,558 ✭✭✭Padraig Mor


    end of the road wrote: »
    apologists? what are they apologists for? the fact that travelers exist? well they do, get over it
    Traveller behaviour. No-one has a problem with Travellers existing; it's what they choose to do with that existence that is subject to debate.
    end of the road wrote: »
    the UN? yeah, i'd take what they say over someone on a forum

    who, the lad in the pub? the UN say otherwise and what they say goes

    And what exactly is it that gives them a separate ethnicity from other white Irish people? Their supposed language (in reality, just some slang words)? Their nomadic lifestyle (I believe the majority nowadays aren't actually nomadic)? Having a few songs? Or could it be that, just maybe, their shared experience nowadays has far more in common with that outlined in Brenda Power's article, than anything that could be remotely termed a "culture"? Of course, criticising Travellers - even with established facts - is against Boards policy, so I guess that I can't really go much further...


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    #526
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Pavee Point and lobby groups of the same persuasion are just not interested in that discussion. They are only interested in closing it down.
    untrue, then again i would want to shut down discussion on something written in a gutter trash rag which is only written to start outrage.
    Tony EH wrote: »
    Their raison d'etre is to quash any discussion that reflects serious concerns that exist among people both within and without and as such their contribution is pretty worthless to the over all debate.
    untrue, they work with travelers so i'd take what they say over a sensationalized gutter trash rag article
    Tony EH wrote: »
    Politically interested lobby groups are only interested in promoting items that enhance their standing and actively engage in minimisation of items that are less worthy of promotion. Their existence is geared toward marginalising debate and engaging in damage control when the negative aspects of their target interest raises its head.
    well as pavee point aren't a political group that is untrue
    Tony EH wrote: »
    This is why their input is to be taken with a large pinch of salt. They do NOT bring an honest opinion to the table.
    they do, are you saying you would take the contribution of a group who actually work with travelers with a pinch of salt over members of the public who just go on experiences and who listen to **** published in a gutter trash rag?
    Tony EH wrote: »
    Brenda Power, on the other hand, IS bring her honest and open opinions into the discussion. They're opinions that not everybody will agree with, but she has expressed them openly and have laid them out for people to agree or disagree with.
    and? are we supposed to give her a pat on the back?
    Tony EH wrote: »
    She is open to debating the subject, a subject which affects a very large number of people in the country.
    maybe she's only open to a debate when the other contributers agree with her or where the other contributers mightn't be as able to debate something as her so she can slap them down
    Tony EH wrote: »
    Pavee Point's contribution is denial and whining to the Equality authority and the Irish Council for Civil Liberties and try to shut down the debate.
    wrong, what do you want them to say? all travelers are scummy criminals who should be left to fend for themselves and who should be wiped from society? because if thats what you want then forget it, its not happening and they would be right not to come out with such statements.
    Tony EH wrote: »
    Out of all the players involved here, Brenda Power is coming out as the most honest broker.
    maybe but it means nothing, she's just writing to appeal to the rabel rabel brigade

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #527
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,196 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Your "replies" are useless. Mere contradiction is no good for discussion.


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    #528
    where_am_i
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8 ✭where_am_i


    end of the road wrote: »
    they don't, their just not going to go on about it all the time, they do work behind the sceenes to sort traveler issues so are not going to do or say anything that could risk further issues being caused to the travelers by the low rent in the settled community who clame to be saints even though their not and would be the first not to pay tax if they could and who probably do the old nixer on the side while on the dole (no thats not all people in the settled community of course but if we want to go on about traveler issues we need to take a look at ourselves also)

    joe duffy put it to martin collins on liveline the other day that " criminality is disproportionate within the travelling community

    collins rebuked JD very vociferously


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    #529
    zl1whqvjs75cdy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,042 ✭✭✭zl1whqvjs75cdy


    where_am_i wrote: »
    joe duffy put it to martin collins on liveline the other day that " criminality is disproportionate within the travelling community

    collins rebuked JD very vociferously

    A prime example of what I was talking about earlier. Pavee point completely ignoring or denying stone cold facts, thus making it very easy to discredit them when they raise valid concerns for the travelers.


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    #530
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,196 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Well, he didn't.

    He simply denied it and attempted to make out that the high level of traveler prison population was down down to the Guards essentially being "racist".

    BTW, that Liveline "discussion" was a joke.


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    #531
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Your "replies" are useless. Mere contradiction is no good for discussion.

    He's spot on in every one of them. If you think Power's article was serious critical debate you're codding yourself, it was a diatribe and one that didn't even pretend to categorise Travellers as anything other than a homogenous criminal group.

    "teach your kids how to use a golf club for something other than violence" and all of that crap. As if all Travellers teach their kids to be violent with weapons from a young age. There's ways of talking about issues like feuds and domestic violence in a given community without engaging in gross generalisations. If somebody wrote "stop teaching your kids silly slang talk" about black people there'd be uproar, and rightly so.

    Secondly the Daily Mail has a long history of engaging in this sort of sh*te, not just about Travellers but about everyone from blacks, Irish, Asians and the unemployed. Power herself has often proved herself to be a hysterical commentator looking to engender shock and offense as much as she is serious debate.


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    #532
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,196 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    It's easy to contradict. But it doesn't add anything to a discussion. You can contradict anything, but it doesn't mean much.

    It also doesn't matter what one thinks of Brenda Power or her article.

    The fact is that she has moved to open a debate or discussion on the matter. One that needs to be discussed openly.

    But Pavee Point's move has been to try an shut it down and seek a withdrawal from the publishing body.

    In that stance alone they've displayed an unwillingness to engage.

    Sure, the 'Daily Mail' is an atrocious rag for the more right wing elements of society, however, that doesn't mean that the points being raised by Brenda Power aren't worthy of debate.


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    #533
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #534
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Well, he didn't.

    He simply denied it and attempted to make out that the high level of traveler prison population was down down to the Guards essentially being "racist".

    BTW, that Liveline "discussion" was a joke.

    Well. He wouldn't be a traveller if he didn't use the 'racist' defence at every opportunity


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    #535
    Patrick2010
    Registered Users Posts: 3,193 ✭✭✭Patrick2010


    Tony EH wrote: »
    It's easy to contradict. But it doesn't add anything to a discussion. You can contradict anything, but it doesn't mean much.

    It also doesn't matter what one thinks of Brenda Power or her article.

    The fact is that she has moved to open a debate or discussion on the matter. One that needs to be discussed openly.

    But Pavee Point's move has been to try an shut it down and seek a withdrawal from the publishing body.

    In that stance alone they've displayed an unwillingness to engage.

    Sure, the 'Daily Mail' is an atrocious rag for the more right wing elements of society, however, that doesn't mean that the points being raised by Brenda Power aren't worthy of debate.

    Brenda Power writes for the Sunday Times, not the Daily Mail. ST is an excellent paper.


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    #536
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Patrick2010 wrote: »
    Brenda Power writes for the Sunday Times, not the Daily Mail. ST is an excellent paper.

    She writes for the mail now.


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    #537
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,196 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Patrick2010 wrote: »
    Brenda Power writes for the Sunday Times, not the Daily Mail. ST is an excellent paper.

    I believe the article was published in the Daily Mail. AFAIK, with op ed pieces like this, you simply write the article and whomever wishes can pick it up.


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    #538
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    In some parts of america you would be considered stupid to move into an area if you are white. Ireland has a smaller population than a lot of US cities so the comparison to black people doesnt stand here.

    Pavee point do have a habit of ignoring any wrong doings on their side, tend to have some way to blame the rest of us for it.


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    #539
    crockholm
    Registered Users Posts: 2,448 ✭✭✭crockholm


    FTA69 wrote: »
    He's spot on in every one of them. If you think Power's article was serious critical debate you're codding yourself, it was a diatribe and one that didn't even pretend to categorise Travellers as anything other than a homogenous criminal group.

    "teach your kids how to use a golf club for something other than violence" and all of that crap. As if all Travellers teach their kids to be violent with weapons from a young age. There's ways of talking about issues like feuds and domestic violence in a given community without engaging in gross generalisations. If somebody wrote "stop teaching your kids silly slang talk" about black people there'd be uproar, and rightly so.

    Secondly the Daily Mail has a long history of engaging in this sort of sh*te, not just about Travellers but about everyone from blacks, Irish, Asians and the unemployed. Power herself has often proved herself to be a hysterical commentator looking to engender shock and offense as much as she is serious debate.

    You will find that Bill Cosby is often known to call for black kids to drop the silly slang talk. He feels that it may lead to the youth being unprepared and inarticulate to pass interveiws and a hinderance when dealing with the public.

    Little or no uproar,and rightly so.


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    #540
    J_E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭J_E


    crockholm wrote: »
    You will find that Bill Cosby is often known to call for black kids to drop the silly slang talk. He feels that it may lead to the youth being unprepared and inarticulate to pass interveiws and a hinderance when dealing with the public.

    Little or no uproar,and rightly so.
    Yes, because that is in an entirely different context to a bunch of white angry/concerned people.


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    #541
    Stavros Murphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,440 ✭✭✭Stavros Murphy


    Cydoniac wrote: »
    Yes, because that is in an entirely different context to a bunch of white angry/concerned people.

    Ok. But why? Because he's black? Isn't that judging/categorising/allowing behaviour by skin colour? Is that not rascist? So skin colour permits speech, and yet forbids speech? If it's black or white? The ideal would be colour-blindness, but we all know that aint never gonna happen. I'm kinda colour-blind. I take people as I find them. I care less if they are blue with pink stripes.


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