Irish Teen Fears Execution in Egypt

gctest50

Nodin wrote: »

.......why you are making up stories about muslim brotherhood rape gangs......

Nodin wrote: »

Theres nothing there about orchestrated rape gangs.

Several of the girls were groomed to the extent they believed the sexual abuse was part of loving relationships they were having with the defendants, and that having sex with their 'boyfriend's' friends was part of their 'culture and tradition'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2851680/13-Somali-men-convicted-running-inner-city-prostitution-ring-British-teenagers-abused-raped.html

.

For at least 16-years gangs of Muslim men were able to target, groom and abuse girls as young as 11, with little to fear from the authorities.
Victims were gang raped, while others were groomed and trafficked across northern England.


She added: “There were examples of children who had been doused in petrol and threatened with being set alight, threatened with guns, made to witness brutally violent rapes and threatened they would be next if they told anyone.”

wexie

wexie wrote: »

ah okay, they just happened to all belong to the same organisation and just happened to all feel 'the urge' at the same time, at the same event.

right, my bad

http://bulletinoftheoppressionofwomen.com/category/islamist-groups/muslim-brotherhood-islamist-groups/

http://www.meforum.org/4731/muslim-brotherhood-rape

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2241374/Muslim-Brotherhood-paying-gangs-rape-women-beat-men-protesting-Egypt-thousands-demonstrators-pour-streets.html

actually, you know what, I'll save you the hassle of googling it yourself :

https://www.google.ie/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=muslim%20brotherhood%20rape

Nodin

wexie wrote: »

ah okay, they just happened to all belong to the same organisation and just happened to all feel 'the urge' at the same time, at the same event.

right, my bad

http://bulletinoftheoppressionofwomen.com/category/islamist-groups/muslim-brotherhood-islamist-groups/

http://www.meforum.org/4731/muslim-brotherhood-rape

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2241374/Muslim-Brotherhood-paying-gangs-rape-women-beat-men-protesting-Egypt-thousands-demonstrators-pour-streets.html

While I've no doubt that rapes did happen, all that exists to show co-ordination is claims.

Human Rights watch goes into the incidents in some detail and makes no mention of co-ordination
http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/07/03/egypt-epidemic-sexual-violence

wexie

Nodin wrote: »

While I've no doubt that rapes did happen, all that exists to show co-ordination is claims.

Human Rights watch goes into the incidents in some detail and makes no mention of co-ordination
http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/07/03/egypt-epidemic-sexual-violence

what you do think the odds are of quite that many rapes, perpetrated by members of the same (terrorist) organisation commit rapes, in the same place, during the same event, without it being orchestrated, or at the very least encouraged/condoned?

Nodin

wexie wrote: »

what you do think the odds are of quite that many rapes, perpetrated by members of the same (terrorist) organisation commit rapes, in the same place, during the same event, without it being orchestrated, or at the very least encouraged/condoned?

Who said they were all members?

anothernight

Nodin wrote: »

While I've no doubt that rapes did happen

Prove it. Prove you have no doubt.

wexie

Nodin wrote: »

Who said they were all members?

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jun/19/muslim-brotherhood-supporters-charged-rape-sexual-/

The Washington Times, but I know they're not a reliable source :rolleyes:

reprise

anothernight wrote: »

Prove it. Prove you have no doubt.

I demand a link. TO HIS BRAIN.

wes

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

And promptly started trying to change the constitution so that no future elections would be free and fair and that a muslim brotherhood hegemony would be ensured, that's why protests then started against them. Don't try and make out that the MB were some kind of goody-two-shoes who never did anything wrong, they did their own fair share of protestor killing, not to mention organising rape-gangs to intimidate female opposition.

Your making all kind of claims there. Firstly, you are right about the Muslim Brotherhood making changes to the constitution, which they then backed down in the face of protests. This, however does not justify a military junta.

Secondly, Morsi wasn't found guilty recently in a junta court of all place of killing protesters. Think about how little evidence there must have been, when they would love nothing more than pin that on the guy, seeing as you know the country is run by a military junta and all.

As for the "organized" rape gangs, there is no proof that the Muslim Brotherhood organized them. The sad fact is that during all the various protests in Egypt, that there were a large number of sexual assaults, but there is 0 evidence that it was organized by any group, and as pointed out by Nodin, Amnesty found not evidence of such organization, and honestly if there was proof, the military junta would happily be showing it to the world media, about the Muslim Brotherhood organizing rape gangs.

BTW, such accusations were also leveled at the military as well as other groups, but again no evidence of organized rape gangs by any political group exists. You see there is sadly in Egypt a rather major problem, where Women are regularly attacked in the streets, and this has been going on for years, long before these protests, as well as during them, even when they were dominated by secularists etc. Now if you can provide some evidence of Mursi, ordering rape gangs, then I will be more than happy to see him go to jail for the rest of his life, and his party be banned, but you have yet to provide anything of the sort.

So yes the Muslim Brotherhood, brought the protest on themselves, and I never actually had issues with people protesting there policies, as they were trying to grab more power, and were doing a crap job running the country, but they backed down before the junta decided to grab power, and it should be pointed out that the junta has even imprisoned some of people protesting the Brotherhood at the time.

wes

wexie wrote: »

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jun/19/muslim-brotherhood-supporters-charged-rape-sexual-/

The Washington Times, but I know they're not a reliable source :rolleyes:

There reporting on claims from a military junta (that wants to destroy the Brotherhood...... ) and the middle east forum (who according to the washington times:

The Middle East Forum bills itself as an organization that “promotes American interests in the Middle East and protects Western values from Middle Eastern threats.”

Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jun/19/muslim-brotherhood-supporters-charged-rape-sexual-/#ixzz3Kyrq5U61
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter

)

Its not an investigation by the Washington times, as you seem to suggest, but them reporting on what the military junta in Egypt is claiming and the middle east forum group. BTW, you know the same military btw has been accused of using sexual violence against Women in the past....... The same military junta, who want to destroy there rivals, the Muslim Brotherhood, the same junta who arrested those who protested Mursi's government, once those people started to come out against the Junta's excesses.

I think it fair to say that any claims from the junta and middle east forum group should be taken with a pinch of salt, seeing as there is a epidemic of sexual assault in Egypt, that can hardly be completely blamed on the Muslim Brotherhood, which at this point is a fractured organization, with most of its leadership in jail, or on the run.

**EDIT**
BTW, the Muslim Brotherhood claims seem to be soley coming from the Middle East forum group, but its kind of hard to tell, seeing as they are the sole source for this claim of the Muslim Brotherhood being behind these attacks, and I am not even sure if the miltiary junta is blaming the Muslim Brotherhoods leadership on this.

I will say its rather interesting, how so many posters, managed to skirt around that the sole source of this seems to be the middle east forum, by providing multiple links that refer to the same source the Middle East Forum, a right win think tank, run by Daniel Pipes, a man not know for being fair or balanced when it comes to the Middle East.... Its an interesting tactic, to try and make out that this is actually several different sources, who investigated this, as opposed to reporting on the claims being made by a right wing think tank run by Daniel Pipes.
**END EDIT**

reprise

Putinovsky wrote: »

Wait so a lad who marched in the face of potential death for democracy is less likely to defend our country in a crisis than a lad who goes to Magaluf on a piss up?

Yeah...great logic.

The chap is a credit to our country, what a brave Irishman.

Ahem.......

hatrickpatrick

Just to throw in my own two cents here, nothing justifies a military junta. If the military feel they must remove a leader who has lost their mandate and is clinging to power then I can see how that might sometimes be justifiable - but locking up their supporters, banning protests, and failing to hold *immediate* elections is inexcusable.

Venus In Furs

However people feel about his politics, the prison conditions alone warrant condemnation by any rational person irrespective of their views.
And the Indo is hardly a bastion of pro islam sentiment so I don't buy the "biased article" stuff.

smurfjed

That there's a lot of wriggle room in what can and cannot be done in this law.

Such as what? I have no desire to see the inside of a Middle Eastern jail, but if i do get involved with fighting against the government, what exactly can i expect the Irish ambassador to do for me?
Can we also expand this a little bit, we now have one IRISHMAN jailed for flighting for his concept of democracy in Egypt, how many Irishmen do we have in Syria and Iraq fighting with IS/ISIS/ISIL for their concept of democracy. What are we expected to do for them once they are jailed?

Nodin

wexie wrote: »

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jun/19/muslim-brotherhood-supporters-charged-rape-sexual-/

The Washington Times, but I know they're not a reliable source :rolleyes:

That's one incident.....

skooterblue2

Another interesting question is "What can the Irish Embassy do?"

Realisitically Egypt aren't in the EU. I dont think anyone wants to put trade sanctions on Egypt or interfere with the passage of Oil.
When you are out there and under Sharia Law or a Military court, their word is law and beyond questioning.
The best thing the Irish Embassy can do it make up a care pack of Barrys tea, Jacobs Biscuits and some Denny Rashers.... cos thats the most helpful thing they will be able to do without upsetting people making things worse. This guy is martyr me ...and he just might get it. He has refused consular advice and such.

Imagine if some American got air rage and the flight had to be forced down in Shannon and some American Senator wrote to an Irish Judge..... Who wouldnt be up in arms. Irish Judges get written to the whole time by Irish TDs... most of them end up in the bin, the way it should be. Why should it be any different?

RobYourBuilder

some Denny Rashers.... cos thats the most helpful thing they will be able to do without upsetting people making things worse. 

I think the rashers might p*ss them off more than any perceived interference.

skooterblue2

Awww Come on @RobYourBuilder Everyone loves a bit of Rasher "Now you know you're home"

Every Irish perons loves a bit of rasher, in a care pack with Sausage, pudding and a mug of Barrys.. Sure t'would be the Christian thing to do.

Icepick

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Other siblings claimed to be there a month beforehand before deciding to get involved. With Somaia Halawa talking about "the blood that will run tonight" and that the "victory of Allah will come soon".

Have these claims been addressed by his family?

Little CuChulainn

whirlpool wrote: »

Jesus ****ing Christ.

Some governments should just be bombed and be done with them once and for all.

What an evil, evil group of monsters.

Isn't that basically how the current government got in?

skooterblue2

No they got democratically elected by the people after the previous government left the banks run riot , Lost control of the economy bailed out both the bankers and the builders. The current Government were then oblidged to step in and then proceeded to balance the books, but in favour of the 1%.

Now it looks like the revenues from Irish water will be used to payback the Anglo Irish bond holders.

Pompous

up for anything wrote: »

He is an Irish citizen and was only 17 when arrested. I'd have expected this country to be going all out to get him back regardless of the rights and wrongs of what he was involved in. Get him back first, ask questions later. If you can't rely on your own country when the **** hits the fan it's a poor look out. He wasn't arrested with a kilo of heroine at the airport. What they were allegedly mixed up in was poor judgement but most people with dual heritage would understand the desire to make some show of support.

ETA: One page in on this thread and a jury of his peers have already found him guilty based on on newspaper reports.

ETA stands for 'estimated time of arrival'.

skooterblue2

up for anything wrote: »

He is an Irish citizen and was only 17 when arrested. I'd have expected this country to be going all out to get him back regardless of the rights and wrongs of what he was involved in. Get him back first, ask questions later. If you can't rely on your own country when the **** hits the fan it's a poor look out. He wasn't arrested with a kilo of heroine at the airport. What they were allegedly mixed up in was poor judgement but most people with dual heritage would understand the desire to make some show of support.

ETA: One page in on this thread and a jury of his peers have already found him guilty based on on newspaper reports.

Oh dear God where to start? At 12 you are considered a Man in that part of the world. Egypt are not a member of the EU and cant be brought to heal like one of the PIIGS (Portugal, Iceland, Ireland, Greece, Spain). These are the boys who own the Suez Canal. He was arrested trying to subvert the government which in some countries is Treason which is much worse than drug smuggling. Egypt has always been on the DoFA books as a "touch and go State". he went against best advice. Its abit like wondering should Michael Dwyer from Tipperary have gotten a fair trial in Bolivia? If you go off the reservation , you are on your own Tonto....

seenitall

Pompous wrote: »

ETA stands for 'estimated time of arrival'.

Also, for "edited to add".

Little CuChulainn

skooterblue2 wrote: »

No they got democratically elected by the people after the previous government left the banks run riot , Lost control of the economy bailed out both the bankers and the builders. The current Government were then oblidged to step in and then proceeded to balance the books, but in favour of the 1%.

Now it looks like the revenues from Irish water will be used to payback the Anglo Irish bond holders.

Sounds like you are a little lost. This thread is about Egypt.

smurfjed

Originally Posted by up for anything View Post
If you can't rely on your own country when the **** hits the fan it's a poor look out.

What exactly do you expect Ireland to do? Invade the Suez canal until he is released?

If you break the laws of a foreign country, you can expect to be dealt with by the legal system of that country. If you are talking about a country with Shariah law, then you can forget human rights or the fact that he was 17, especially as according to the Hijra calendar he was probably 18 anyway.

Do we even have an extradition agreement with Egypt?

skooterblue2

smurfjed wrote: »

If you break the laws of a foreign country, you can expect to be dealt with by the legal system of that country. If you are talking about a country with Shariah law, then you can forget human rights or the fact that he was 17, especially as according to the Hijra calendar he was probably 18 anyway.

Do we even have an extradition agreement with Egypt?

+1
Its so far away from Kansas its not funny Toto. Does Anyone know what Sharia Law is? Or What happened with The East London Mosque? When you are out there (ie Turkey and beyond). You WILL obey their law and you WILL respect their traditions and you WILL be observant. Woe betide you if the religious police get you, you will be crying for the Military police. Of course the DoFA dont want to ruffle feathers even if it was a more genuine case. Too much trade and the world runs on cheap oil.

If you want to go outside the EU and kick up a fuss go ahead, see what the Irish Government did for Brian Keenan,..... on reflection I am not so sure he was that much of a boy scout either.

anothernight

smurfjed wrote: »

If you break the laws of a foreign country, you can expect to be dealt with by the legal system of that country.

If you're a national of that country but you have dual nationality, you're usually not entitled to consular assistance from your second country at all (in this case Ireland). It also depends on whether Egypt recognises the dual nationality, and apparently (according to wikipedia ) if you acquire your second nationality through being born elsewhere, they may not recognise it because the citizen can't seek permission within a year of obtaining the second nationality. Hmmm.
But even if recognised, the usual position is that if you're a citizen of the country you're currently staying at, your other country won't help you.


====

"It is generally considered that while dual nationals are in the country of which they are citizens that country has a predominant claim on them."
http://amsterdam.usconsulate.gov/dual_nationality2.html


"Under international law, countries are not obliged to recognise dual nationality. Many countries will not permit prisoners with dual nationality to receive consular assistance from the embassy or consulate of the other nationality."
http://www.prisonlaw.nl/nl/nieuwsberichten/102-arrested-with-a-dual-nationality


"He said Mr. Fahmy's case is complex because he is a dual citizen who returned to Egypt years ago and is subject to Egyptian law. Many countries in the Middle East don't recognize dual citizenship. In Egypt, dual citizenship is allowed so long as officials in that country are informed."
http://online.wsj.com/articles/canada-troubled-by-egypts-conviction-of-mohamed-fahmy-1403643500

Grand Moff Tarkin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

And what if I don't? Will you pester me again and again with the same question? Well get your copy and paste ready then bucko, just because you say something doesn't mean that I have to comply. I know your tactics and I'm not letting you drag the discussion off into some side-alley of minutiae.

Best to you can do is put him on ignore as he thinks any view outside his own is racist and you can never win when dealing with arse****s like that on a local talk page.

Nodin

skooterblue2 wrote: »

+1
Its so far away from Kansas its not funny Toto. Does Anyone know what Sharia Law is? Or What happened with The East London Mosque? When you are out there (ie Turkey and beyond). You WILL obey their law and you WILL respect their traditions and you WILL be observant. Woe betide you if the religious police get you, you will be crying for the Military police. Of course the DoFA dont want to ruffle feathers even if it was a more genuine case. Too much trade and the world runs on cheap oil.

If you want to go outside the EU and kick up a fuss go ahead, see what the Irish Government did for Brian Keenan,..... on reflection I am not so sure he was that much of a boy scout either.

They don't have religious police in most of the middle east, the exceptions being Iran and Saudi afaik.