Irish Teen Fears Execution in Egypt

Wright

AlekSmart wrote: »

Firstly,it's always good to see people returning to the country,so welcome Wright.

Secondly,just to dispel the Halawa Sisters notion that the Irish Government has not been providing appropriate representation to their brother....

https://www.dfa.ie/news-and-media/press-releases/press-release-archive/2015/july/minister-flanagan-statement-on-halawa-case/



Ibrahim Halawa has recieved a level of consular assistance far in excess of what many others were given.

Mr Halawa's sisters,who appear to be the ONLY spokespersons for the family,have continually and stridently attempted to demean the work done by Isolde Moylan and Charlie Flanagan for their brother.

There remains a significant question as to why the deal,facilitated by Ms Moylan,which would have allowed Mr Halawa to leave the country,was repudiated at the last minute without any explanation being proffered by the Halawa Sisters.

As to the thread-title,it is now accepted that Mr Halawa does NOT face charges which carry the Death penalty...

The new Egyptian ambassador to Ireland,Ms Gendi has clarified quite a bit of the situation surrounding this issue....however,her statements appear to be of less note to the Irish Media than the well reported outpourings from the Halawa sisters...

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/egypt-rules-out-special-treatment-for-irish-teenager-31211355.html



The extent to which these Egypto-Irish siblings embraced the Muslim Brotherhood's campaign is not in doubt.

The surving video,although long,does clearly show the level of intent borne by these individuals and the calls-to-arms which they so loudly made.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cn09s-Fq5s

Mr Halawa is in a situation almost entirely of his own making,although ably assisted by his Sisters.

The lack of any comment by his Father,the Imam is both unusual and on a human scale worrying,as it would appear to endorse the claims of those who see a Jihadist tinge to this family's doings thus far.

Mr Halawa is indeed lucky to have held an Irish Passport,and to have had a Government willing to go to the extra mile for him.

There are few Western Democracies today,who would be prepared to seek clemency for somebody so stridently opposed to the very ideals their adoptive homeland exists under.

With a bit of luck this mans trial will finally get underway in October,perhaps after Mr Halawa's sisters return home,to answer their own bail ?

Thank you for doing what ohnonotgmail and *chortle* darkpagandeath :pac: couldn't I'll read up on those.
I don't disagree with anything you've posted, its all level headed and impartial. Thanks.

Hans Bricks wrote: »

That infantile, whiny adjective "Islamophobia" rears it's ugly head again. Is that the default response from overtly left wingers now whenever people of Arab, Persian or turkic persuasion are criticized or something?

It's a good indication to stop taking a person seriously in an argument when that empty accusation gets thrown about.

I'd be moderately right wing myself so that's a fairly dumb assumption right off the bat. Not a great start was it...

Wright

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Sure why don't we Invite the MB over for a chat they seem like a tolerant lot, I'm sure they would have supported the vote on Marriage.

The fact that it was actually put to a public vote is offensive and ridiculous, why would I get a say in my neighbours/co-workers/whatever right to marry? It's nothing got to do with me at all.

Even the US dealt with it better, by having judges rule it unconstitutional. If you can say that the US did something smarter and with more regards to human rights than your own country, its not a very good sign, is it.

Love how you try to paint Ireland as a tolerant place in that post lol. I've been all around the world and haven't seen ignorance and prejudice on the scale it is presented here on a daily basis. And I've been to some ♡♡♡♡holes.

K.Flyer

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Sure why don't we Invite the MB over for a chat they seem like a tolerant lot, I'm sure they would have supported the vote on Marriage.

Well it certainly wasn't supported by the Islamic Cultural Centre of Ireland (Clonskeagh Mosque)


Islamic Cultural Centre of Ireland (Clonskeagh Mosque)

In the public Referundum on 22nd May, vote "NO" to same sex marriage.

Wright

K.Flyer wrote: »

Well it certainly wasn't supported by the Islamic Cultural Centre of Ireland (Clonskeagh Mosque)


Islamic Cultural Centre of Ireland (Clonskeagh Mosque)

Backwards as that is, please explain its relevance to this thread.

K.Flyer

Wright wrote: »

Backwards as that is, please explain its relevance to this thread.

It was in reply to someone else's post.

The ICCI has been brought into the thread many times. I know you are new to the thread, and I don't really expect you to read every single page, so the relevance in a few words..

Ibrahim Halawa >> Muslim Brotherhood supporter >> His Father, Head Imam of the Clonskeagh Mosque >> allegedly a high up member of the Muslim Brotherhood >> Muslim Brotherhood not supporters of same sex marriages.
Father suspiciously quiet on the subject and has not travelled over to Egypt to support his son, possibly because of his M.B. links which may lead to him being arrested.

Wright

K.Flyer wrote: »

It was in reply to someone else's post.

The ICCI has been brought into the thread many times. I know you are new to the thread, and I don't really expect you to read every single page, so the relevance in a few words..

Ibrahim Halawa >> Muslim Brotherhood supporter >> His Father, Head Imam of the Clonskeagh Mosque >> allegedly a high up member of the Muslim Brotherhood >> Muslim Brotherhood not supporters of same sex marriages.

So you can understand how posting something not really on topic but anti-islamic in a thread already populated by one or two Islamaphobes might just render the thread an Islamaphobic car wreck.

K.Flyer

Wright wrote: »

So you can understand how posting something not really on topic but anti-islamic in a thread already populated by one or two Islamaphobes might just render the thread an Islamaphobic car wreck.

What was Anti-islamic about what I posted, it was in response to another post.

Wright

K.Flyer wrote: »

What was Anti-islamic about what I posted, it was in response to another post.

It paints Islam in a negative light unnecessarily without reason.

It is off topic; it has nothing to do with this young man's detainment.

smurfjed

It paints Islam in a negative light unnecessarily without reason.

That kinda sounds like some of the present day followers of Islam, they appear to be extremely capable painting the religion in a negative light without any assistance!

KERSPLAT!

Mod

Closed, gimmie 5 minutes lads, cheers

KERSPLAT!

MOD

I'm gonna reopen this but I'll say this, there are one or two individuals who are trolling or just plain taking the p!ss. Cut it out or bans will be issued, last warning.

wendell borton

darkpagandeath wrote: »

When did Egyptians become Westerners ?

They were western before there was a west.

ohnonotgmail

Wright wrote: »

So you can understand how posting something not really on topic but anti-islamic in a thread already populated by one or two Islamaphobes might just render the thread an Islamaphobic car wreck.

How can stating facts be anti-islamic? Facts stand on their own.

lanos

Wright wrote: »

It is off topic; it has nothing to do with this young man's *detainment*.

*Detention

AlekSmart

Wright wrote: »

So you can understand how posting something not really on topic but anti-islamic in a thread already populated by one or two Islamaphobes might just render the thread an Islamaphobic car wreck.

Ah now whoa there Neddy...

The position of the Clonskeagh Mosque (ICCL) and it's senior Cleric,Ibrahim's father,Sheykh Halawa in relation to Domestic Irish affairs is VERY much ON-Topic and ON-Thread.

Ibrahim Halawa is not any ordinary young Irish lad,caught up in the urgency of it all.

This is a very politicized family,and one which has shown itself adept at manipulating the coverage of his situation to further the broader aims of the Muslim Brotherhood,secondary to Ibrahim's own position.

This would be quite acceptable,even expected,IF the family were not also engaged in a concerted campaign to berate and otherwise diss the Irish Govwernment and it's Consular Service as well.

I would never have expected to find myself admiring Charlie Flanagan for anything,however he has to be given credit for keeping his responses calm,cool and most important of all FACTUAL,whilst the Halawa sisters,in particular,went off on one.

Refusing to accept that ALL Islam is inherently good and peaceful,does not make one an Islamophobe,nor anti-Islamic by nature.

Cynical...Analytical...Sceptical....Reasonable....yes..but Phobic....Sorry,but I'm not buying that at all.

Wright

AlekSmart wrote: »

Ah now whoa there Neddy...

The position of the Clonskeagh Mosque (ICCL) and it's senior Cleric,Ibrahim's father,Sheykh Halawa in relation to Domestic Irish affairs is VERY much ON-Topic and ON-Thread.

It's not though. If you want to create a thread defaming his family fire ahead. But that's not what the thread was about.

Wright

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

How can stating facts be anti-islamic? Facts stand on their own.

You can present certain facts to colour things in the way that suits you. Simple enough concept. If I had a problem with any race or creed I could give you lots of facts that paint them in a bad light.

You do realize when we talk of extremists or sympathizers or extremists we're realistically talking about 0.000001% or even less, of all people who follow Islam. Yet I see rarely ever see that mentioned. Suppose we've been conditioned by the media; they are excellent at training their camera on that 0.000001%. Little excuse though.

Wright

lanos wrote: »

*Detention

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/detainment

Knock yerself out.

AlekSmart

Wright wrote: »

It's not though. If you want to create a thread defaming his family fire ahead. But that's not what the thread was about.

All the way back to the beginning of this situation,we have had various claims from the Halawa sisters concerning their situation.

Initially most folk were prepared to accept the "Family Holiday" account and sympathize with their plight in being caught up in events.

However,the emergence of several video's,both self-made and 3rd party,which provided a somewhat sharper focus to the family's involvement,coupled with the statements and speeches made during the initial protest and arrest phase,gave rise to a pause for reconsideration.

The initial and continuing reluctance of the Halawa sisters to expand upon and clarify elements of their original account has also substantially undermined their own account.

At this juncture,Mr Halawa is detained in an Egyptian jail,awaiting trial under the Judicial System of a Soverign State with whom Ireland shares a diplomatic relationship.

We have already witnessed high-profile releases,and we also are aware that Mr Halawa has both legal representation,NGO monitoring and full Irish Consular representation,all of which to my mind would point to him recieving an open and fair trial.

IF this trial turns out to be suspect or unfair in any way,then is the time for Ireland to raise the diplomatic ante,rather than attampting to pre-judge and throw bullying shapes at an Egyptian State that sure as hell represents a substantial amount of Egyptians with whom the Halawa's might not be too friendly.

Wright

AlekSmart wrote: »

All the way back to the beginning of this situation,we have had various claims from the Halawa sisters concerning their situation.

Initially most folk were prepared to accept the "Family Holiday" account and sympathize with their plight in being caught up in events.

However,the emergence of several video's,both self-made and 3rd party,which provided a somewhat sharper focus to the family's involvement,coupled with the statements and speeches made during the initial protest and arrest phase,gave rise to a pause for reconsideration.

The initial and continuing reluctance of the Halawa sisters to expand upon and clarify elements of their original account has also substantially undermined their own account.

At this juncture,Mr Halawa is detained in an Egyptian jail,awaiting trial under the Judicial System of a Soverign State with whom Ireland shares a diplomatic relationship.

We have already witnessed high-profile releases,and we also are aware that Mr Halawa has both legal representation,NOG monitoring and full Irish Consular representation,all of which to my mind would point to him recieving an open and fair trial.

IF this trial turns out to be suspect or unfair in any way,then is the time for Ireland to raise the diplomatic ante,rather than attampting to pre-judge and throw bullying shapes at an Egyptian State that sure as hell represents a substantial amount of Egyptians with whom the Halawa's might not be too friendly.

I don't have issue with any of that. Thank you for taking the time to fill me in on what's happened as I've not been here.

His local mosque's actions during the vote are completely off-topic however, and is used to paint the mosque and Islam in a negative light. No other way to slice it I'm afraid.

ohnonotgmail

Wright wrote: »

I don't have issue with any of that. Thank you for taking the time to fill me in on what's happened as I've not been here.

His local mosque's actions during the vote are completely off-topic however, and is used to paint the mosque and Islam in a negative light. No other way to slice it I'm afraid.

their own actions paint them in a bad light.

AlekSmart

Wright wrote: »

You can present certain facts to colour things in the way that suits you. Simple enough concept. If I had a problem with any race or creed I could give you lots of facts that paint them in a bad light.

You do realize when we talk of extremists or sympathizers or extremists we're realistically talking about 0.000001% or even less, of all people who follow Islam. Yet I see rarely ever see that mentioned. Suppose we've been conditioned by the media; they are excellent at training their camera on that 0.000001%. Little excuse though.

This is quite true.

The Irish media have a particularly delicate role to play in this area.

To date,it would appear that the ICCl have been the more adept at handling the Irish Media,with the Clonskeagh Mosque generally portrayed as the focal point of Irish Islam.

However,the recent emergence of the "Not in our Name" campaign and the realization that there IS a dissenting voice in Irish Islam has not been universally welcomed it would appear.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/muslim-leaders-split-over-planned-is-protest-march-31352219.html

He is at odds with the Irish Council of Imams, an umbrella organisation for all Islamic organisations in Ireland, claiming that while many issues pertinent to Muslims are discussed by the council, Islamic extremism has not been one of them.

Over at Ireland's biggest mosque, the Islamic Cultural Centre in Clonskeagh, Dr Ali Salem believes there is no "extremism" in Ireland, and questioned whether mass public protests are the correct forum for condemning the so-called Islamic State.

In the context of Ibrahim Hawala's actions in Egypt,I would contend that Dr Selim's views on mass public-protest are equally valid.

For non Muslim's it really does come down to which of the Clerics you place your faith in....

http://impic.ie/media/prominent-muslim-imam-warns-islamic-extremism-is-a-problem-in-ireland

Dr Shaykh Umar Al-Qadri, an Imam from the Al-Mustafa mosque in Blanchardstown and the man who organised the rally, told Newsweek that the protests are a collective attempt by Irish Muslims to stop radicalisation and “promote pluralism and tolerance” in their communities.

“There are unfortunately sympathisers of ISIS within Ireland and they are remaining silent,” Al-Qadri says. “They do not condemn the atrocities perpetrated by ISIS in the name of Islam. If they remain unchallenged they will grow like a cancer.”

At some point,I suspect Irish Muslims will have to choose a path to follow,it will never be up to me to make that decision for them,but Dr Al-Quadri appears to have a somewhat clearer grasp of the situation than his Southside compatriot ?

RichardCeann

Wright wrote: »

I don't have issue with any of that. Thank you for taking the time to fill me in on what's happened as I've not been here.

The Halawas addressing a Muslim Brotherhood rally.

Ibrahim inside the mosque where he was arrested.

A news report on the siege before his arrest.

That should bring you up to speed on the situation surrounding his arrest.

Spanish Eyes

As someone else said, the right course of action is for Charlie Flanagan's Department to provide Consular support and keep well out of it for now.

Neither he, nor his Department could possibly be expected to interfere with another Country's Judicial or Legal system at this stage PRIOR to a trial.

Sorry, doesn't matter that the trial has been delayed ad infinitum. That is not Ireland's concern.

A fair trial is though, and that is what is important. .

Wright

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

their own actions paint them in a bad light.

Duh?

Remarking on their stance on gay marriage still has no place in this thread.

As such, to post it, the only correlation between that and the on topic discussion, would be anti-islamic sentiment.

Honestly its people like you and darkpagandeathwhatever that helps people like this lad to radicalize. No doubt their elders and the internet are the primary offenders but when they see this kind of ignorant carry-on from the westerner their elder has told them is out to get them... well; kinda proves it for them doesn't it? This 'them and us' attitude festers on both sides. As someone who is not fully Irish I can tell you growing up here was horrendous. In my town to this day places Polish kids frequent are frequently sprayed with swastikas by Irish kids. Basketball court is covered with them. Throw radicalism in that mix of resentment and division. What do you get? No wonder we're seeing tens of thousands from the British Isles off joining Daesh of all bloody things! You're part of the problem.

hatrickpatrick

AlekSmart wrote: »

At this juncture,Mr Halawa is detained in an Egyptian jail,awaiting trial under the Judicial System of a Soverign State with whom Ireland shares a diplomatic relationship.

Therein lies the fallacy. This is not a sovereign state anymore, this is a former democracy living under the dictatorship of a military junta which is denying its people political freedom, and which survives only because its survival serves Western foreign policy goals better than the democratically elected government did.

Any Western government which grants this Egyptian regime the slightest bit of legitimacy is aiding and abetting tyranny.

Wright

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Any Western government which grants this Egyptian regime the slightest bit of legitimacy is aiding and abetting tyranny.

Well IMO better to do that and get the lad back safe, if he wants to, which he doesn't seem too. Leave that fight for another day. Sure in two years someone elses tanks will have rolled through That region has been musical bloody chairs for two thousand years or more.

hatrickpatrick

Wright wrote: »

Well IMO better to do that and get the lad back safe, if he wants to, which he doesn't seem too. Leave that fight for another day. Sure in two years someone elses tanks will have rolled through That region has been musical bloody chairs for two thousand years or more.

I agree with being diplomatic if that helps to get him back, I was more aiming my disdain at those suggesting that because Egypt is a "sovereign state", its "government" is free to lock up whoever it wants and that we should respect that. This is an illegitimate regime which has absolutely no respect for political freedom or basic due process, their legal system should not be regarded with a shred of legitimacy and anyone who says "he broke the law, they can do what they want" or whatever is essentially giving their stamp of approval to an oppressive, fascist regime.

Wright

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I agree with being diplomatic if that helps to get him back, I was more aiming my disdain at those suggesting that because Egypt is a "sovereign state", its "government" is free to lock up whoever it wants and that we should respect that. This is an illegitimate regime which has absolutely no respect for political freedom or basic due process, their legal system should not be regarded with a shred of legitimacy and anyone who says "he broke the law, they can do what they want" or whatever is essentially giving their stamp of approval to an oppressive, fascist regime.

I think that's why this was a story in the first place. Had an Irish citizen been locked up in a Northern European prison we'd be bloody jealous; nicer digs than mine! Like a hostel. But yeah Egyptian/Turkish and further eastwards, all across the continent in fact... no ta.

Means Of Escape

K.Flyer wrote: »

"...This Is Now An Islamic Matter"
Was another of his quips, while keeping the police at bay during the Mosque stand off.

What a beaut to bring home