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Irish Teen Fears Execution in Egypt

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    #482
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Here is a bit of news for ye. He is not up on criminal charges. He is up on military charges in front of an Military court.
    The Judge will be a military officer and he will not be tried as a citizen but as a combatant. It is never good to be up in front of court but military courts are a different matter. I am not so sure politicians/diplomats/civil servants can interfere with the working of a military court. The Judge is not going to look kindly on his casualties, in fact he is going to be fairly peeved about it. The Judge isn't going to care whether he has an Egyptian, Irish, or even a Swiss Passport. If a Military Policeman/Intelligence Officer says he was involved then the Judge will take it as gospel. You have to remember he is not in the EU and he cant claim all his "Irish" privillages.

    even more reason to do what we can seeing as any so called military trial over there is illegitimate
    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Oh and for all those patrons saying how "40 shades of green" he is ? The Muslim brotherhood are ISIS and once the get a proper foothold with a stable government, They are going to start training foot soldiers on the EU's door step. for all those cheering him on .... When ISIS do get a foot hold state he is going to want to come back to all us Infidels, who drink alcohol, eat Pork and dont take the Koran seriously and cut us like stuck pigs. Please find Kalid or Terry Kelly for reference.

    yeah. whatever

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #483
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Because he is a Langer!! He travel out of "his country" to a country which the DoFA give regular warnings about. Hooked up with the muslim brotherhood (these are the lads linked to ISIS/ Al Queeda as opposed to the Muslim boys Choir), got involved in a civil uprising

    that doesn't make someone who was born in ireland non irish. he is irish, get over it.
    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    if he gets back he will most likely want to spread his gospel of "submission" to all the heretics in Ireland.

    yeah. i'm sure.
    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    If you did that in the States, left the country and joined an opposing force and started targeting their allies. Supposing they were tolerant enough to bring you home ...... they would hold you in Guantanamo bay for a few years and give you a slow painful death.

    and? thats america. thankfully we are nothing like them.
    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    This guy is going to get a centre page spread in Muslim Martyrs Monthly.

    is he? resorting to make up stuff about an irish born irish citizen for dubious reasons using his trip to egypt as a reason. says it all.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #484
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    A dual Irish / Egyptian citizen went to Egypt and engaged in anti government activities where he could be tried as an adult. The Irish Ambassador secured a deal that could have allowed him passage home on the strength of his Irish passport which he refused. He is bring held and could face military trial for the anti government activities he was engaged in.

    That the story? What am I missing? Because in order to have sympathy for this kid I'd need to be missing something.

    The Irish passport or Irish citizenship is not a license to engage in crime or anti government activities overseas imo.
    there was no "anti-government" anything. the rulers of egypt aren't a "government" fair play to him. if he left the mosq, the egyptian military would have slaughtered the men women and children in it. lets hope this irish hero gets back home soon where he belongs

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #485
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Jawgap wrote: »
    I'd consider myself in the pro-lad camp - I genuinely hope he makes it safely home soon to his family (I'm assuming he regards here as home as it seems most of his immediate family are here).

    The reason I'm posing questions is because I don't like being taken for a mug - the story being thrown about is that he went out there for a holiday to see some of his extended family then got swept up in the protests like he was some kind of innocent abroad. I'm sorry, but that story doesn't stack up.

    I'd prefer if his supporters came out and were honest with us. I don't believe he traveled on his Irish passport (in other words as an Irish citizen and therefore entitled to consular assistance) for a simple family holiday. I believe he traveled with the intention of joining in the protests and that he stayed to make a political point.

    I also find it very disingenuous the way the campaign to highlight his plight have sought to manipulate imagery to persuade us he's just a decent lad (which I'm sure he is) who got caught up in events. I find the shift from the use of yellow and black imagery on posters and the photo of him in what looks like some kind of dish-dash to photos of him in more 'western' clothing super-imposed on the tricolour to be cynical.

    If his supporters want to garner further support, they should do people the courtesy of being honest with them.

    On that point, unless there's some more sensible arguments I think I'll remove myself from this thread.
    his supporters are being honest. when someone of a different skin colour or religion is involved, some will always be convinced there is more to something when there isn't due to the fact they have an agenda against such people.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #486
    fedor.2.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,944 ✭✭✭fedor.2.


    end of the road wrote: »
    there was no "anti-government" anything. the rulers of egypt aren't a "government" fair play to him. if he left the mosq, the egyptian military would have slaughtered the men women and children in it. lets hope this irish hero gets back home soon where he belongs

    I usually find your posts amusing, bit on the naive side, but the above is kinda silly. Irish hero!!, really?.. Would you not be better off heading over there, to stand by him, and see how you get on.


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    #487
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    end of the road wrote: »
    his supporters are being honest. when someone of a different skin colour or religion is involved, some will always be convinced there is more to something when there isn't due to the fact they have an agenda against such people.

    Ok then, I'll ask the questions again......

    (1) Why were the posters used to highlight his detention yellow and black, the colours associated with the Muslim Brotherhood and the R4BIA gesture?? Before they were changed to him with a tricolour in the background?

    (2) Did he travel on his Egyptian or Irish passport?


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    #488
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Better question: Is it possible to be Irish and Muslim?
    Which comes first Irish law of the Land or Sharia law?

    I dont think the two are compatible. There have been suggestion of amending English law to accommodate elements of Sharia law. The Judiciary would not entertain it and said it was completely unworkable.

    I think it is possible to Catholic and Irish, Church of Ireland, Presbyterian, Buddist, seventh day reformist church, even Opus dei (not a fan btw) and still be an Irish citizen. I believe when they put the interest of their religion over the security of the State and interfere with the law of the land and the peace of their neighbourhood. hell it is possible to be Athiest and Irish and I have no problem with that.

    yes. the paediophile catholic priests were not puting the interest of their religion over the security of the State, weren't interfering with the law of the land and the peace of their neighbourhood when they were abusing children. funny how they can be irish and catholic. yet if muslims do anything at all, they can't be irish and muslim. i wonder why. what a crock of ****. if you can be irish and of any other religion you can be irish and muslim.
    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    I am in favour of dual nationalities. I have many friends who claim both nationalities. It has never come up in conversation, "where is your loyalty?". It facilitates trade, art, expression of ideas, peace and tourism.

    yeah, i'm sure.
    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    It was not intended to be abused to travel to trouble hot spots with the intent of taking arms and then when trouble arose get the Irish ambassador to sort it out.

    nobody cares. he went to protest, if the irish can help an irish born irish citizen then they should, and they are doing so.
    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    It cant work like that.

    it can. unless of course its because one is of a different skin colour or religion?
    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    The problem I am referring to is: A man traveled to a country outside the EU jurisdiction, at great cost, despite constant warnings from the DoFA. Entered a country and made contact with a paramilitary group, was involved in a riot where people were injured and killed including security officers.

    so what. he went probably to protest that corrupt government who deserve everything they get.
    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    he was caught in a stand off and he claimed Irish nationality.

    because he is irish. he was born here. being of a different skin colour or religion changes nothing dispite your agenda.
    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    A deal was brokered for him to return to Ireland and he declined.

    because if he left the mosq along with other foreigners the egyptian military would have slaughtered the men women and children who were there. but i suppose thats grand.
    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    He is being processed by the military institutiion, not the civilian court.

    yes. a military and court which have no legitimacy.
    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Now what does he was us to do?
    That is the Problem.

    its not a problem. he is an irish born irish citizen, and the irish government are doing what little they can to help. good for them fair play to them.
    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    The Irish passport is a privilege

    not for an irish born citizen like this chap.
    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    as one from a neutral country. You cannot act like a "mucky puppy" and then expect the privilege of the full cooperation of the DoFA, to smooth things over.

    you can. and nothing is going to change the fact that the irish government is doing what little they can to help an irish born irish citizen, and they aren't going to stop because certain types try to hide their real agenda.
    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    You also need to Answer my Question @Nodin, Are you a muslim? Were your parents born here?

    whats that got to do with anything. nothing. but for the record, i'm not muslim, i was born here. i support the irish government doing what they can to help an irish born irish citizen.
    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    suppose Ireland were to send troops to Syria on a NATO peace enforcing mission where would your loyalities be? Would you serve in the Irish Police or defense forces if called to do so? have you ever attended the muslim center at Clonskeagh?

    again whats that got to do with anything. nothing as nobody cares. this chap is still irish and none of your nonsense is going to change it. get over it and move on.
    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    I think you are a second generation Muslim and aren't that far removed from the situation.

    because he recognizes that one can be irish, of a different skin colour and religion? yeah.
    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Other than waving a jaded Irish passport this argument hasn't got a hope

    your nonsense doesn't, you're right
    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    he was caught red handed.

    protesting an illegitimate government. fair play to him.
    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    This kid might be better off writing to Kalid Kelly to get tips on how to survive the Cairo Sheraton.

    he can do that anyway, while the irish government try to do what they can to hopefully get this irish born irish citizen back home to ireland.
    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    I think we are getting closer to the truth now

    oh yes. we are.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #489
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Ok then, I'll ask the questions again......

    (1) Why were the posters used to highlight his detention yellow and black, the colours associated with the Muslim Brotherhood and the R4BIA gesture?? Before they were changed to him with a tricolour in the background?

    (2) Did he travel on his Egyptian or Irish passport?
    i'm sure you can ask him when he gets back

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #490
    bjork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    wasn't the speech


    "As Egyptians abroad..."


    Interesting the speech wasn't "As Irish - Egyptians" ;)


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    #491
    Kristopherus
    Registered Users Posts: 11,907 ✭✭✭✭Kristopherus


    end of the road wrote: »
    i'm sure you can ask him when he gets back

    Are you his father?


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    #492
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    end of the road wrote: »
    i'm sure you can ask him when he gets back

    OK then let's try a different question, which of the following do you think is more likely.......

    (1) He travelled there on his Egyptian passport

    or

    (2) He travelled on his Irish passport and paid the €38 for a visa and went through the application process to obtain same

    Also, why do you think the posters highlighting his detention were, originally, in yellow and black - do you think it was a coincidence that those are the colours of the Muslin Brotherhood?


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    #493
    fedor.2.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,944 ✭✭✭fedor.2.


    end of the road wrote: »
    i'm sure you can ask him when he gets back


    Ah that's years away like


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    #494
    Grand Moff Tarkin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Grand Moff Tarkin


    fedor.2. wrote: »
    I usually find your posts amusing, bit on the naive side, but the above is kinda silly. Irish hero!!, really?.. Would you not be better off heading over there, to stand by him, and see how you get on.

    He is no more a hero than the scuts down the street causing trouble on a weekend.


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    #495
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Better question: Is it possible to be Irish and Muslim?
    Which comes first Irish law of the Land or Sharia law?

    I dont think the two are compatible.

    So "no" then.
    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    You also need to Answer my Question

    Seeing as it has nothing to do with the topic, no, I don't.
    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    I think you are a second generation Muslim and aren't that far removed from the situation.

    I think you've forgotten you can see a persons posts by clicking on their profile.


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    #496
    Grand Moff Tarkin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Grand Moff Tarkin


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Strong posting from skooterblue here

    He looks to have scored a hit.


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    #497
    Beano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,357 ✭✭✭Beano


    Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »
    He looks to have scored a hit.

    you can tell the quality of a man by those who oppose him.


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    #498
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Also, why do you think the posters highlighting his detention were, originally, in yellow and black - do you think it was a coincidence that those are the colours of the Muslin Brotherhood?

    Kilkenny hurling fan obviously


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    #499
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    fedor.2. wrote: »
    Ah that's years away like

    Lets not get overly optimistic there ....


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    #500
    lertsnim
    Registered Users Posts: 9,759 ✭✭✭lertsnim


    end of the road wrote: »
    that doesn't make someone who was born in ireland non irish. he is irish, get over it.

    He also holds an Egyptian passport so He can be treated like an Egyptian in Egypt. If anyone needs to get over anything it is you.


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    #501
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    end of the road wrote: »
    y
    because if he left the mosq along with other foreigners the egyptian military would have slaughtered the men women and children who were there. but i suppose thats grand.

    yes. a military and court which have no legitimacy.

    you can. and nothing is going to change the fact that the irish government is doing what little they can to help an irish born irish citizen, and they aren't going to stop because certain types try to hide their real agenda.

    So if he left the Mosque he would have been under the protection of the Irish Ambasador? You can argue it both ways. You cant argue he would have been killed AND If he had left the other people would have been killed.

    And you would also want to dust off of the Geneva convention.... oh wait there isnt a chapter on soldiers of fortune but yes a military court does have jurisdiction on combatants, once you pick up a gun you are a combatant. If you arent a member of a legitimate army or a national tieing... then you are not covered by the Geneva convention.

    Clearly you have never stood on the non trigger end of a gun. I'll explain it like this.... when you are on their territory and they have a gun pointed at you..... they are automatically right by default at that moment in time. Any other or opposition, could bring a negative consequence at that moment in time and especially in an Arab country.

    The Irish government are doing as little as they can because they are browned off with his antics. You can only play national card so many times, they get annoyed with it after a while.


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    #502
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,299 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    end of the road wrote: »
    that doesn't make someone who was born in ireland non irish. he is irish, get over it.
    So are a lot of the IRA. They're still terrorists.
    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Which comes first Irish law of the Land or Sharia law?
    In Ireland, Irish law. Sharia is not law in Ireland.


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    #503
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    the_syco wrote: »
    In Ireland, Irish law. Sharia is not law in Ireland.

    You would want to have a look what is going on in Birmingham ... they are running underground Sharia courts......


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    #504
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    So if he left the Mosque he would have been under the protection of the Irish Ambasador? You can argue it both ways. You cant argue he would have been killed AND If he had left the other people would have been killed.

    And you would also want to dust off of the Geneva convention.... oh wait there isnt a chapter on soldiers of fortune but yes a military court does have jurisdiction on combatants, once you pick up a gun you are a combatant. If you arent a member of a legitimate army or a national tieing... then you are not covered by the Geneva convention.

    Clearly you have never stood on the non trigger end of a gun. I'll explain it like this.... when you are on their territory and they have a gun pointed at you..... they are automatically right by default at that moment in time. Any other or opposition, could bring a negative consequence at that moment in time and especially in an Arab country.

    The Irish government are doing as little as they can because they are browned off with his antics. You can only play national card so many times, they get annoyed with it after a while.
    they are doing as little as they can as they can only do a little. an illegitimate government or military dictatorship is never right, they are always wrong by default

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #505
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    the_syco wrote: »
    So are a lot of the IRA. They're still terrorists.

    just like the BA, who's slaughtering gave the IRA the support they needed. had people been treated equally in the aparthite sectarian statelet that was NI, there most likely wouldn't have been an ira

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #506
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    the_syco wrote: »
    So are a lot of the IRA. They're still terrorists.
    The difference is we have had to put up with a lot from the IRA, and had to go to extra ordinary lengths to accomodate a peace process on both Irish and British sides.

    Hang on a moment, Ireland didnt invade Egypt, establish a colony in the middle east and doesnt have a national oil company exploiting the Middle East..... So why to we have to put up with these Yahoos bringing their conflict into our jurisdiction?

    It is not so easy to disentangle ourselves from the nothern conflict but this Arab Spring is very simple .... "Well Ahmed, we are awful sorry you are banged up but we did warn you before you went. Here is consular assistance we can offer, dont drink the water and sleep with your back to the wall".


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    #507
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    end of the road wrote: »
    they are doing as little as they can as they can only do a little. an illegitimate government or military dictatorship is never right, they are always wrong by default

    Brave words said in a state where your rights are guaranteed. Foolish words shouted, videoed and demonstrated in an African State under Martial Law. Bit like a turkey voting for Christmas... twice. Its a time and place context.


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    #508
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    end of the road wrote: »
    they are doing as little as they can as they can only do a little. an illegitimate government or military dictatorship is never right, they are always wrong by default

    Says who? Why do we arrogantly assume that western democracy is the only legitimate form of government??

    Dictatorship as a constitutional device existed and was enshrined in the Roman Republic. And if you want to be academic about it, benign dictatorship is actually the most efficient form of government........not that I'm advocating that - I prefer democracy to dictatorship - but we shouldn't assume that it's the only to govern a country.


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    #509
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,310 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    end of the road wrote: »
    there was no "anti-government" anything. the rulers of egypt aren't a "government" fair play to him. if he left the mosq, the egyptian military would have slaughtered the men women and children in it. lets hope this irish hero gets back home soon where he belongs

    You might not like them or what they stand for but they are the sovereign powers that be right now. The whole 'if he didn't leave the others would have been slaughtered' stuff you're pedaling is proven as fact by what? But leaving it aside, once he decided to not accept the terms of the arrangement (which is his right) I don't see the Irish government as having further responsibility.

    He went over there to get involved in a conflict. That is a choice. He now must face the consequences of that choice.


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    #510
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    You might not like them or what they stand for but they are the sovereign powers that be right now. The whole 'if he didn't leave the others would have been slaughtered' stuff you're pedaling is proven as fact by what? But leaving it aside, once he decided to not accept the terms of the arrangement (which is his right) I don't see the Irish government as having further responsibility.

    He went over there to get involved in a conflict. That is a choice. He now must face the consequences of that choice.

    The Irish government never had any responsibility for him in the first place as he was in a country for which he held citizenship and - most likely - travelled on his Egyptian passport.

    The DFA opted to get involved (fair play to them) and were let get involved by the Egyptian authorities who could have told them to get lost. I assumed the fact the ambassador was allowed to get involved and was able to negotiate a deal (major kudos to her) was down to the relative high regard with which the Egyptian government hold the Irish people - instead of taking the deal and coming out to continue his protest by a different manner and means he opted to stay.

    He continues to received consular visits, but I think he's had his turn and we should move on to apply our influence there in some other way to help the situation rather than trying to help someone who doesn't want to be helped.


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    #511
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,310 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    I agree with you, my post was poorly worded if you interpreted otherwise.


This discussion has been closed.
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