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Irish Teen Fears Execution in Egypt

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    #5072
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Means Of Escape wrote: »
    No an Egyptian who also holds an Irish passport is being held in Egypt
    no an irish citizen is being held in a country with an illegitimate government, where he has no chance of a fair just trial, but a trial based on mostly made up "evidence" to ensure a required verdict by that government

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #5073
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Thats simply not true- I refer you to the case of Ken Bigley, who wasn't an Irish citizen but was given an Irish passport

    I refer one to the rumours Irish abroad in foreign jails. Receiving the old, You broke the law here is the number of a local lawyer. Let us know how you get on. Not even getting in the papers let alone being debated in the Dail. Or being helped by Amnesty international.


  • Options
    #5074
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    end of the road wrote: »
    no an irish citizen is being held in a country with an illegitimate government, where he has no chance of a fair just trial, but a trial based on mostly made up "evidence" to ensure a required verdict by that government

    Oh Do tell the rest of us what's in the case books regarding this case ? As It's not been reported anywhere the exact details of the case.


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    #5075
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Chemical Byrne wrote: »
    Look, this guy is not Irish in the real sense. He is only technically "Irish" due to holding an Irish citizenship & passport.

    no, he is technically irish because he is technically irish. he is as irish as you and me, and one will accept it.
    Chemical Byrne wrote: »
    Being genuinely Irish is about a lot more than your citizenship status: ancestry, cultural identification etc etc.

    nonsense, its about being simply irish regardless of whatever. irish is irish is irish.
    Chemical Byrne wrote: »
    This is the real reason why the government has little interest.

    is it? have the government little interest?
    Chemical Byrne wrote: »
    COnversly if it were a young fella born n bread in west cork and raised on a diet of GAA and binge drinking they'd be pulling out all the stops to get him back. Simple as.

    so no more then they would do for any citizen including this chap?

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #5076
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,413 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Thats simply not true- I refer you to the case of Ken Bigley, who wasn't an Irish citizen but was given an Irish passport

    he wasnt an irish citizen but was entitled to an irish passport. the irish government did this in an attempt to save his life. but what has this got to do with young ibrahim?


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    #5077
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    end of the road wrote: »
    no, he is technically irish because he is technically irish. he is as irish as you and me, and one will accept it.



    nonsense, its about being simply irish regardless of whatever. irish is irish is irish.



    is it? have the government little interest?



    so no more then they would do for any citizen including this chap?

    How many Irish people do you know being shown on video pronouncing their support for their fellow Egyptian brothers and waffling about coming home to Egypt ?


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    #5078
    Chemical Byrne
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,311 ✭✭✭Chemical Byrne


    If this was a normal american citizen banged up there the americans would be "sending in a team" to extract him.


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    #5079
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Chemical Byrne wrote: »
    If this was a normal american citizen banged up there the americans would be "sending in a team" to extract him.

    No they would not why would they send in a team to get a MB supporter ?


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    #5080
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,413 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Chemical Byrne wrote: »
    If this was a normal american citizen banged up there the americans would be "sending in a team" to extract him.

    you mean like they did for the american citizens currently in prison in Iran? oh wait, they didnt. i think you've watched too many chuck norris films


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    #5081
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    you mean like they did for the american citizens currently in prison in Iran? oh wait, they didnt. i think you've watched too many chuck norris films

    I think they are thinking of this.



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    #5082
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,413 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    I think they are thinking of this.


    i love that film.


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    #5083
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    Wright wrote: »
    What your willfully missing is that Egypt is not exactly a fair and open democracy right now; 'perfectly legal' in their book could be some messed up ♡♡♡♡, hence the whole hubbub in the first place. If this lad got arrested in Sweden or somewhere, no fuss, no thread. Your logic centres fail you.

    If he was Irish American and arrested in America, he'd be seen as American and the Irish citizenship would not matter. If he was Irish-Swahili, and arrested in Swaziland his Irish citizenship would not matter.

    You not understanding how dual citizenship and being arrested in one of the dual countries works has nothing to do with logic. It's 100% ignorance.


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    #5084
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,647 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    except he was supposedly born here.

    Lots of people are born here and grow up in other places. Does that make them any more or any less Irish?
    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    :confused: Yes it is confusing I have said he is an Immigrant due to the dates of arrival in Ireland and the birth date. But one said he was born here now he's an Immigrant which is it ? I would argue he does not think of himself As Irish due to the video evidence. Coming home comments and with my brothers all that. And the attire/attitude in the video. Does not come off particularly western to me never mind Irish, As his entire family is Egyptian.

    And before anyone jumps on it I am not talking about Religious clothing.

    I think you're right- he likely doesn't identify as Irish in the sense that many of us here do. Despite being born here he likely grew up in a house where the customs and heritage were different than what most Irish kids would grow up with. But all that doesn't make him any less Irish in terms of citizenship, he had an Irish passport and is an Irish citizen, end of. Unless you want to define what it is to be 'Irish'? Do you have to love the GAA? Because I prefer the Premier League, does that make me 'less Irish'? Does not being fluent in Irish make me 'less Irish'? Or not liking Guinness? What does it mean to be Irish? Its actually undefinable so I don't get why people are trying to define him as 'not Irish', despite him having paperwork to prove otherwise.
    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    I refer one to the rumours Irish abroad in foreign jails. Receiving the old, You broke the law here is the number of a local lawyer. Let us know how you get on. Not even getting in the papers let alone being debated in the Dail. Or being helped by Amnesty international.

    What have other Irish in foreign jails got to do with it? I once visited an Irishman in a jail in Thailand, he murdered a man and admitted as much. Are you saying the likes of him should be getting Dail time and media coverage, simply on the basis that Halawa is?
    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    he wasnt an irish citizen but was entitled to an irish passport. the irish government did this in an attempt to save his life. but what has this got to do with young ibrahim?

    The point is look how far the Irish govt went in the Ken Bigley case for a person who wasn't even an Irish citizen when he got taken captive. They rushed through a passport for him, forgoing all the usual security precautions such as him actually filling out a passport application like every Irish citizen has to do. It was a highly unusual case but our govt did their best to save his life. So if the DFA went that far for a non-Irish citizen I don't think it is much to ask that they do likewise for an Irish citizen who cannot get a fair trial.


    Which gets me to one final point. Can any of the posters here offer a decent argument in favour of the Egyptian judicial system and its ability to administer justice? Because unless you think he can actually get a fair trial then all these circular arguments on whether he is Irish or not are a complete waste of time. If he can get a fair trial in Egypt then I think he should be tried there. But only a lunatic would argue that being tried alongside 475 other detainees is going to result in a fair and just trial.


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    #5085
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,413 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    The point is look how far the Irish govt went in the Ken Bigley case for a person who wasn't even an Irish citizen when he got taken captive. They rushed through a passport for him, forgoing all the usual security precautions such as him actually filling out a passport application like every Irish citizen has to do. It was a highly unusual case but our govt did their best to save his life. So if the DFA went that far for a non-Irish citizen I don't think it is much to ask that they do likewise for an Irish citizen who cannot get a fair trial.
    .

    Ken Bigley was not charged with a crime. he was not given a trial. he had no committed no crime except that of being british. Rushing through a passport for him was not a massive effort. Young Ibrahim has taken up far more of the irish governments time and continues to do so.


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    #5086
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Lots of people are born here and grow up in other places. Does that make them any more or any less Irish?



    I think you're right- he likely doesn't identify as Irish in the sense that many of us here do. Despite being born here he likely grew up in a house where the customs and heritage were different than what most Irish kids would grow up with. But all that doesn't make him any less Irish in terms of citizenship, he had an Irish passport and is an Irish citizen, end of. Unless you want to define what it is to be 'Irish'? Do you have to love the GAA? Because I prefer the Premier League, does that make me 'less Irish'? Does not being fluent in Irish make me 'less Irish'? Or not liking Guinness? What does it mean to be Irish? Its actually undefinable so I don't get why people are trying to define him as 'not Irish', despite him having paperwork to prove otherwise.



    What have other Irish in foreign jails got to do with it? I once visited an Irishman in a jail in Thailand, he murdered a man and admitted as much. Are you saying the likes of him should be getting Dail time and media coverage, simply on the basis that Halawa is?



    The point is look how far the Irish govt went in the Ken Bigley case for a person who wasn't even an Irish citizen when he got taken captive. They rushed through a passport for him, forgoing all the usual security precautions such as him actually filling out a passport application like every Irish citizen has to do. It was a highly unusual case but our govt did their best to save his life. So if the DFA went that far for a non-Irish citizen I don't think it is much to ask that they do likewise for an Irish citizen who cannot get a fair trial.


    Which gets me to one final point. Can any of the posters here offer a decent argument in favour of the Egyptian judicial system and its ability to administer justice? Because unless you think he can actually get a fair trial then all these circular arguments on whether he is Irish or not are a complete waste of time. If he can get a fair trial in Egypt then I think he should be tried there. But only a lunatic would argue that being tried alongside 475 other detainees is going to result in a fair and just trial.

    I would not go and break laws in a country that I don't like the legal system in. Whiles going on about coming home and being with my brothers. So one cannot really complain if one thinks they are home. And I would wager this chap would be fine with the legal system if the MB was in charge as it has not changed. I cannot get my head around the sisters going on about human rights and all that in relation to the military in power when they would be fine if it was a MB court handing out the same justice. Well probably worse justice actually.


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    #5087
    RichardCeann
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 647 ✭✭✭RichardCeann


    You are trying to compare Ken Begley, who was captured and murdered by Islamic terrorists, to Halawa, who was agitating on behalf of an illegal Islamic organisation.

    That's impressive.


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    #5088
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    Muahahaha wrote: »

    Which gets me to one final point. Can any of the posters here offer a decent argument in favour of the Egyptian judicial system and its ability to administer justice? Because unless you think he can actually get a fair trial then all these circular arguments on whether he is Irish or not are a complete waste of time. If he can get a fair trial in Egypt then I think he should be tried there. But only a lunatic would argue that being tried alongside 475 other detainees is going to result in a fair and just trial.

    Well I'd point to some of the people who have already been tried, and found not guilty as an argument in favour of the Egyptian judiciary. If they were just finding everyone guilty I'd agree that it was a kangaroo court, but they are methodically working their way through the numbers arrested, going through the evidence and coming to their decision that way. Sounds like pretty much any other civilised judiciary in the developed world.


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    #5089
    RichardCeann
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 647 ✭✭✭RichardCeann


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    If he was Irish American and arrested in America, he'd be seen as American and the Irish citizenship would not matter.

    Michael Fitzpatrick is an Irish citizen who has been on Death Row in Florida for over a decade. Not a peep out of our elected representatives.


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    #5090
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    Well I'd point to some of the people who have already been tried, and found not guilty as an argument in favour of the Egyptian judiciary. If they were just finding everyone guilty I'd agree that it was a kangaroo court, but they are methodically working their way through the numbers arrested, going through the evidence and coming to their decision that way. Sounds like pretty much any other civilised judiciary in the developed world.

    That don't sell outrage, sorry papers.


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    #5091
    Pedro K
    Registered Users Posts: 1,197 ✭✭✭Pedro K


    end of the road wrote: »
    no an irish citizen is being held in a country with an illegitimate government, where he has no chance of a fair just trial, but a trial based on mostly made up "evidence" to ensure a required verdict by that government

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j0JxYeB4To


    Are you still spouting this absolute nonsense? Whate evidence is made up?


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    #5092
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,413 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    RichardCeann wrote: »
    Michael Fitzpatrick is an Irish citizen who has been on Death Row in Florida for over a decade. Not a peep out of our elected representatives.


    he became an irish citizen through his granny. 12 years after being convicted of rape and murder. Perhaps i'm just being cynical but perhaps he only applied for an irish passport because he thought it might provide him with some extra help. you would think they would have some background checks in place before giving somebody a passport.


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    #5093
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    he became an irish citizen through his granny. 12 years after being convicted of rape and murder. Perhaps i'm just being cynical but perhaps he only applied for an irish passport because he thought it might provide him with some extra help. you would think they would have some background checks in place before giving somebody a passport.

    Especially people who arrive on these shores with suspect pasts.


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    #5094
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,413 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Especially people who arrive on these shores with suspect pasts.

    he didnt even arrive on these shores. there is no indication he has ever set foot in this country.


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    #5095
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    he didnt even arrive on these shores. there is no indication he has ever set foot in this country.

    The entire family have Irish passports. I wonder on what grounds they were given.


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    #5096
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,413 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    The entire family have Irish passports. I wonder on what grounds they were given.

    probably the granny rule, the same as him.


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    #5097
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    probably the granny rule, the same as him.

    No I'm talking about this chaps family.


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    #5098
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,413 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    No I'm talking about this chaps family.

    oh you mean young ibraheem. I honestly dont know.


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    #5099
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,413 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    just as a point of reference in case this comes up again regarding consular assistance for dual citizens. the quote comes from a response by the minister in the Dail regarding another dual citizen.
    My Department does not have an automatic entitlement to provide consular assistance to the person referred to by the Deputy given that he is an American citizen being tried in a US court. In cases involving dual nationality, it is at the discretion of the host nation whether to acknowledge a person’s second citizenship and to afford that country’s diplomatic service access to provide consular assistance.

    http://www.thomaspringle.ie/question-on-consular-assistance-give-to-irish-citizen-facing-death-penalty/


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    #5100
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    just as a point of reference in case this comes up again regarding consular assistance for dual citizens. the quote comes from a response by the minister in the Dail regarding another dual citizen.



    http://www.thomaspringle.ie/question-on-consular-assistance-give-to-irish-citizen-facing-death-penalty/

    So does that put a nail in the coffin that the Egyptians are illegitimate thugs that make stuff up ? As they are allowing Irish counsellor access.


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    #5101
    DarkyHughes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭DarkyHughes


    Sounds horrible what he's going to through. That's pure raw militarism for you.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqtFEGgCLOg


This discussion has been closed.
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