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Irish Teen Fears Execution in Egypt

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    #5342
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    And if that was the case, then they would have voted against the Brotherhood in an election following Morsi's deposition. We will never know whether this would have happened, because the military junta banned the organisation as an entity, killed a bunch of its members, imprisoned others, and refused to allow any protests about this.

    That's not ok in any country which calls itself a democracy. You cannot have the military deciding who is and who is not allowed to run for election - if you do, then the people do not have a proper choice about who to elect.

    Problem is Egypt never was a democracy it's an experiment that failed horribly due to the guy in power wanting to set-up a dictatorship basically. Based on Religion and Religious law.


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    #5343
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,413 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    It was the military junta who suspended the constitution, not the MB. I agree that the MB were fairly appalling in office which is why I don't necessarily oppose their forced removal from office - provided that they are free to run in any subsequent election so that the people, all of the people, can choose whether or not they want them gone.

    Banning a political party, imprisoning its members, and violently crushing protest and dissent is not ok. The military junta should be utterly shunned by every country calling itself a democracy.


    Any political party that tried to impose a dictatorship is not a political party in any legitimate sense. It is a terrorist organisation.


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    #5344
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,818 ✭✭✭SeanW


    end of the road wrote: »
    oits the truth, the military were told by the government to kill all in the mosq once all foreigners were out.
    You have the slightest shred of evidence for this?
    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    It was the military junta who suspended the constitution, not the MB. I agree that the MB were fairly appalling in office which is why I don't necessarily oppose their forced removal from office - provided that they are free to run in any subsequent election so that the people, all of the people, can choose whether or not they want them gone.

    Banning a political party, imprisoning its members, and violently crushing protest and dissent is not ok. The military junta should be utterly shunned by every country calling itself a democracy.
    Would you have said the same if the German military had deposed the Nazis in a coup between 1933 and the start of World War 2? Remember, just like the Muslim Brotherhood, the Nazis won democratic elections, despite their policies being virtually indistinguishable.

    If the German military had deposed Adolf Hitler in 1935 and banned the NSDAP, would you have considered this a bad thing?


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    #5345
    323
    Registered Users Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭323


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    If they were against an illegitimate and repressive regime? 100% absolutely. That's how Ireland earned its freedom from a similar regime.

    Not aimed at the poster.

    But the above statement sounds exactly like all those here that were applauding what was happening in Libya just a few years ago. BS romanticized armchair ideals of democracy, being promoted by warmongers. Didn't work out so well.
    The military taking over in Egypt is far from an ideal situation but its probably the only thing that prevented Egypt going the way Libya and Syria at present.

    “Follow the trend lines, not the headlines,”



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    #5346
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    Any political party that tried to impose a dictatorship is not a political party in any legitimate sense. It is a terrorist organisation.
    you agree then the military junta are a terrorist organisation. good, we are getting somewhere

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #5347
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,413 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    end of the road wrote: »
    you agree then the military junta are a terrorist organisation. good, we are getting somewhere


    You mean the military that have scheduled elections? :rolleyes:


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    #5348
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    You mean the military that have scheduled elections? :rolleyes:

    Elections in which the party which won the last election will not be allowed to participate.
    Sure, that's incredibly democratic. :rolleyes:


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    #5349
    Gringo180
    Registered Users Posts: 9,205 ✭✭✭Gringo180


    SeanW wrote: »
    You have the slightest shred of evidence for this?

    Would you have said the same if the German military had deposed the Nazis in a coup between 1933 and the start of World War 2? Remember, just like the Muslim Brotherhood, the Nazis won democratic elections, despite their policies being virtually indistinguishable.

    If the German military had deposed Adolf Hitler in 1935 and banned the NSDAP, would you have considered this a bad thing?

    Isn't hindsight a great thing.....


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    #5350
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    You mean the military that have scheduled elections? :rolleyes:
    elections which are unlikely to happen, so my point still stands

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #5351
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    SeanW wrote: »
    Would you have said the same if the German military had deposed the Nazis in a coup between 1933 and the start of World War 2? Remember, just like the Muslim Brotherhood, the Nazis won democratic elections, despite their policies being virtually indistinguishable.

    If the German military had deposed Adolf Hitler in 1935 and banned the NSDAP, would you have considered this a bad thing?

    Banning the party? Yes. No election can be regarded as democratically legitimate if a popular party is prevented from participating. By all means individuals within a party who commit crimes should be tried and imprisoned for those crimes, and by all means there should be international intervention in cases of crimes against humanity, but actually banning an ideology from being part of the democratic process is by far the worse of two evils. And it only ever leads to trouble, as it has in Egypt.

    And you comparison is a little nonsensical to begin with. In what way was Morsi's government comparable to the Nazis?

    Again, I don't disagree with him being deposed. I've always believed that a system of recall is essential for a proper democracy, and relatively few countries in the world have anything like that, but for him and his fellow party members to subsequently be banned from participating in the following election was strike one. Violently suppressing people's legitimate right to protest was strike two. Reintroducing a police state including torture, brutality and corruption was strike three.

    The Egyptian regime is not and never will be legitimate. Ergo, they should not be afforded one scrap of legitimacy by the West.


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    #5352
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    Ah now thats a bit harsh on Michael D. He's an idealist. Very much in short supply in irish politics.

    He was always a bit short in Irish politics, what business has he got interfering in an Egyptian state matter anyway?

    As for this prize plonker Halawa, He is a grown man who went to Egypt and disgraced himself and Ireland and acted like a terrorist. he should be dealt with by the Egyptians as they see fit and if that were to include a good flogging or a few years hard labour in a prison he just might learn something from the experience!


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    #5353
    WarZ
    Closed Accounts Posts: 972 ✭✭✭WarZ


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    He was always a bit short in Irish politics, what business has he got interfering in an Egyptian state matter anyway?

    As for this prize plonker Halawa, He is a grown man who went to Egypt and disgraced himself and Ireland and acted like a terrorist. he should be dealt with by the Egyptians as they see fit and if that were to include a good flogging or a few years hard labour in a prison he just might learn something from the experience!

    Lovely stuff, you want a 19 year old Irish citizen flogged and to endure hard labour.

    Sickening stuff.


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    #5354
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Gringo180 wrote: »
    Isn't hindsight a great thing.....

    Almost as good as foresight, I congratulate the generals on their foresight regards getting shot of the MB, if only their german counterparts in that hypothetical scenerio had such wisdom.


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    #5355
    asherbassad
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭asherbassad


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Banning the party? Yes. No election can be regarded as democratically legitimate if a popular party is prevented from participating. By all means individuals within a party who commit crimes should be tried and imprisoned for those crimes, and by all means there should be international intervention in cases of crimes against humanity, but actually banning an ideology from being part of the democratic process is by far the worse of two evils. And it only ever leads to trouble, as it has in Egypt.

    And you comparison is a little nonsensical to begin with. In what way was Morsi's government comparable to the Nazis?

    Again, I don't disagree with him being deposed. I've always believed that a system of recall is essential for a proper democracy, and relatively few countries in the world have anything like that, but for him and his fellow party members to subsequently be banned from participating in the following election was strike one. Violently suppressing people's legitimate right to protest was strike two. Reintroducing a police state including torture, brutality and corruption was strike three.

    The Egyptian regime is not and never will be legitimate. Ergo, they should not be afforded one scrap of legitimacy by the West.

    Yet they have been supported, armed and funded by the West for decades. Kind of exposes the whole charade of hypocrisy.


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    #5356
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    WarZ wrote: »
    Lovely stuff, you want a 19 year old Irish citizen flogged and to endure hard labour.

    Sickening stuff.

    Are you a supporter of a group of terrorists called The Muslim Brotherhood? They have links to isis and other terrorist groups responsible for multiple atrocities.

    This Ibrahaim Halawa character is a supporter and when he went to Egypt he put his verbal support to use at at least one massive public rally for these terrorists where he claimed he was "home" to help them and would basically use the Irish people and government to put pressure on the Egyptian government.


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    #5357
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    He was always a bit short in Irish politics, what business has he got interfering in an Egyptian state matter anyway?

    every right as the egyptian state has no government.
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    As for this prize plonker Halawa, He is a grown man who went to Egypt and disgraced himself and Ireland and acted like a terrorist.

    he didn't disgrace anyone and didn't act like a terrorist. he acted like an idiot but nothing more
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    he should be dealt with by the Egyptians as they see fit

    he shouldn't. an illegitimate so called government doesn't get to deal with anyone or do anything.
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    if that were to include a good flogging or a few years hard labour in a prison he just might learn something from the experience!

    he won't as he has nothing to learn

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #5358
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    conorhal wrote: »
    Almost as good as foresight, I congratulate the generals on their foresight regards getting shot of the MB, if only their german counterparts in that hypothetical scenerio had such wisdom.
    you congratulate terrorists for overthrowing a democratically elected, all be it rubbish government. so they could install their own form of terror and ensure military rule indefinitely?

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Options
    #5359
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭conorhal


    end of the road wrote: »
    you congratulate terrorists for overthrowing a democratically elected, all be it rubbish government. so they could install their own form of terror and ensure military rule indefinitely?

    Yes to the former, as to the latter, clearly your crystal ball works far better then mine does.


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    #5360
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    end of the road wrote: »
    elections which are unlikely to happen, so my point still stands

    Where is one getting this stuff ? Has one found the link to a report about the military going to shoot everyone inside the mosque once they left ? or is one making stuff up.

    By the way why is one not storming the Dail in relation to Ireland HR record terrible legal system yadda yadda. You know the stuff one mentioned in relation to Egypt.


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    #5361
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    WarZ wrote: »
    Lovely stuff, you want a 19 year old Irish citizen flogged and to endure hard labour.

    Sickening stuff.

    That would be Egyptian citizen actually. And no I would not want any flogging.


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    #5362
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Banning the party? Yes. No election can be regarded as democratically legitimate if a popular party is prevented from participating. By all means individuals within a party who commit crimes should be tried and imprisoned for those crimes, and by all means there should be international intervention in cases of crimes against humanity, but actually banning an ideology from being part of the democratic process is by far the worse of two evils. And it only ever leads to trouble, as it has in Egypt.

    And you comparison is a little nonsensical to begin with. In what way was Morsi's government comparable to the Nazis?

    Again, I don't disagree with him being deposed. I've always believed that a system of recall is essential for a proper democracy, and relatively few countries in the world have anything like that, but for him and his fellow party members to subsequently be banned from participating in the following election was strike one. Violently suppressing people's legitimate right to protest was strike two. Reintroducing a police state including torture, brutality and corruption was strike three.

    The Egyptian regime is not and never will be legitimate. Ergo, they should not be afforded one scrap of legitimacy by the West.

    Depends on what electoral system you have. Democracy is still democracy even if it is entirely corrupt and rigged. That's why you need a civil service that can build a state that can power the country forward. Teachers, Doctors & Bin-men need to be paid and foreign trade has to continue otherwise you could end up a dictatorship and bankrupt.


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    #5363
    kidneyfan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,279 ✭✭✭kidneyfan


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    That would be Egyptian citizen actually. And no I would not want any flogging.
    He is also an Irish citizen.


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    #5364
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    kidneyfan wrote: »
    He is also an Irish citizen.

    Oh dear god it's like the entire thread has been ignored. Look up how Duel citizenship works.


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    #5365
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,818 ✭✭✭SeanW


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Banning the party? Yes. No election can be regarded as democratically legitimate if a popular party is prevented from participating. By all means individuals within a party who commit crimes should be tried and imprisoned for those crimes, and by all means there should be international intervention in cases of crimes against humanity, but actually banning an ideology from being part of the democratic process is by far the worse of two evils. And it only ever leads to trouble, as it has in Egypt.
    But failing to do so leads to even more trouble, as we saw in Germany in 1933.
    And you comparison is a little nonsensical to begin with. In what way was Morsi's government comparable to the Nazis?
    Islamist and Nazi ideologies are indistinguisable from each other. In fact most of the differences between Nazi and Islamist ideologies
    1. Jews. Islamists want to drive the Jews into the sea, Nazis drove them into the gas chambers.
    2. Homosexuals. Again, Nazi and Islamist views and policies are indistinguishable.
    3. The role of women in society. Again, Nazi and Islamist views are almost indistinguishable. Both viewed women as little more than facist baby-factories.
    4. Polygamy. Nazi and Islamist views on this are almost identical. Adolf Hitler clearly intended Germany to allow its returning soldiers to have multiple wives after they had won WWII. Fortunately that did not happen.
    5. A global outlook. Both Nazis and Islamists want to take over the world or very large parts of it. The Muslim Brotherhood and other aggressive Islamist (Salafi, Wahabbi etc) entities are active in most nations on Earth. Just like the Nazis/Japanese had spy rings in some allied nations in WWII.
    The few areas where Naziism and Islamism differ, most of those make Naziism look good by comparison.

    The Egyptian regime is not and never will be legitimate. Ergo, they should not be afforded one scrap of legitimacy by the West.
    What makes Egypt different from other non-democratic states. Should Saudi Arabia, Iran, China etc "not be afforded one scrap of legitimacy" either?

    Just as democracy did not work in Germany in 1933, it can only work if you can trust people not to vote for Islamists, Nazis or other reprobates. Becuase if people insist on voting for an anti-democratic organisation like Hamas, Nazis, Muslim Brotherhood etc, that entity will dismantle the democratic institutions and there will be no more democracy anyway - so a military coup only brings forward the end of the democratic setup by a few years in any case. In the wrong hands democracy is, as an old saying goes "like two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner".

    But the crazies do not have to win a majority, if theres one crazy group and a number of non-crazy groups, (e.g. pacifists, communists, secularists, greens, centre-right etc) then all the crazy has to do is get a healthy plurality in for example a presidential election.


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    #5366
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Turns out breaking the Law in Thailand having an Irish passport does not get one special treatment.... A visit from the local consular probably saying get a lawyer was all that was done so far. No Mass media coverage, No mentions in the Dail. Where is amnesty on this one ?


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    #5367
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Turns out breaking the Law in Thailand having an Irish passport does not get one special treatment.... A visit from the local consular probably saying get a lawyer was all that was done so far. No Mass media coverage, No mentions in the Dail. Where is amnesty on this one ?

    But that guy was not a terrorist and member of Muslim brotherhood like our ibrahaim halawa.


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    #5368
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    But that guy was not a terrorist and member of Muslim brotherhood like our ibrahaim halawa.
    ibrahaim halawa is not a terrorist or a member of the Muslim brotherhood

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #5369
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    end of the road wrote: »
    ibrahaim halawa is not a terrorist or a member of the Muslim brotherhood

    What Rally where they guest starting at again ? Ah yes the Gardeners association of Egypt.


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    #5370
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    end of the road wrote: »
    ibrahaim halawa is not a terrorist or a member of the Muslim brotherhood

    To quote you, show us the proof of this


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    #5371
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    To quote you, show us the proof of this

    Where they not all over MB TV network at one stage, Sorry sorry Gardners association of Egypt. Shouting angrily about greenfly infestations and having to fight them until the streets run red. Saying they had been Helping from day one there brothers fight against the greenfly. Even took an injury to the hand.


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