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Irish Teen Fears Execution in Egypt

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    #512
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    I agree with you, my post was poorly worded if you interpreted otherwise.

    Wasn't arguing with you - just expanding the point you made :D

    Apologies for the wording / tone!


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    #513
    Grand Moff Tarkin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Grand Moff Tarkin


    the_syco wrote: »
    So are a lot of the IRA. They're still terrorists.


    In Ireland, Irish law. Sharia is not law in Ireland.

    It would be a cold day in hell before I would even acknowledge Sharia Law as rules to follow.


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    #514
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Says who? Why do we arrogantly assume that western democracy is the only legitimate form of government??

    Dictatorship as a constitutional device existed and was enshrined in the Roman Republic. And if you want to be academic about it, benign dictatorship is actually the most efficient form of government........not that I'm advocating that - I prefer democracy to dictatorship - but we shouldn't assume that it's the only to govern a country.

    +1
    Well you take a few tin pot counteries that aren't capable of sustaining a democracy and then there are arms and insurgents.... Infact the Most of Africa. Sierra Leone is my favourite example. Brits left it in a fine state of infrastructure and in a few short years in constant civil war. Another is Zambia .....massive copper reserves were sold for a song. South African gold reserves were sold when Gold was at an all time low.

    Sweden is actually a kingdom like the Netherlands. I believe Queen Beatrix was as popular as princess Diana in her day. Tito held together a whole country (former Yougoslavia) for 40 years. He took Marshal aid, Advisors form the UK and technology and arms from soviet union and then told them all thank you but you arent welcome. Not all Non democracy are wrong.

    Have to say ....... I would rather the Egyptian military be controlling the Seuz canal than the Brotherhood.


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    #515
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Jawgap wrote: »
    The DFA opted to get involved (fair play to them) and were let get involved by the Egyptian authorities who could have told them to get lost. I assumed the fact the ambassador was allowed to get involved and was able to negotiate a deal (major kudos to her) was down to the relative high regard with which the Egyptian government hold the Irish people - instead of taking the deal and coming out to continue his protest by a different manner and means he opted to stay.

    Any other country,,, hmmm lets it was China, Russia or Syria.... "We would like to thank you for your concern, we are currently dealing with this matter internally and we are not in need of assistance" either that or send to a work camp for re-education.

    Considering what has happened on both sides this boy is doing very well to be getting his weekly box of TK red lemonade and tayto crisps.


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    #516
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Says who? Why do we arrogantly assume that western democracy is the only legitimate form of government??

    Dictatorship as a constitutional device existed and was enshrined in the Roman Republic. And if you want to be academic about it, benign dictatorship is actually the most efficient form of government........not that I'm advocating that - I prefer democracy to dictatorship - but we shouldn't assume that it's the only to govern a country.

    when you slaughter you're own people for protesting, you lose any legitimacy you have

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #517
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    You might not like them or what they stand for but they are the sovereign powers that be right now. The whole 'if he didn't leave the others would have been slaughtered' stuff you're pedaling is proven as fact by what? But leaving it aside, once he decided to not accept the terms of the arrangement (which is his right) I don't see the Irish government as having further responsibility.

    He went over there to get involved in a conflict. That is a choice. He now must face the consequences of that choice.
    not at all. he needs to face no consiquences for protesting.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #518
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Jawgap wrote: »
    The Irish government never had any responsibility for him in the first place as he was in a country for which he held citizenship and - most likely - travelled on his Egyptian passport.

    The DFA opted to get involved (fair play to them) and were let get involved by the Egyptian authorities who could have told them to get lost. I assumed the fact the ambassador was allowed to get involved and was able to negotiate a deal (major kudos to her) was down to the relative high regard with which the Egyptian government hold the Irish people - instead of taking the deal and coming out to continue his protest by a different manner and means he opted to stay.

    He continues to received consular visits, but I think he's had his turn and we should move on to apply our influence there in some other way to help the situation rather than trying to help someone who doesn't want to be helped.
    not at all. we must continue to help this irish citizen

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #519
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Any other country,,, hmmm lets it was China, Russia or Syria.... "We would like to thank you for your concern, we are currently dealing with this matter internally and we are not in need of assistance" either that or send to a work camp for re-education.

    Considering what has happened on both sides this boy is doing very well to be getting his weekly box of TK red lemonade and tayto crisps.
    what a load of rubbish. the irish government are helping an irish born irish citizen. except it and move on.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #520
    Beano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,357 ✭✭✭Beano


    end of the road wrote: »
    what a load of rubbish. the irish government are helping an irish born irish citizen. except it and move on.

    he is also an egyptian citizen. in eqypt. he is not entitled to any consular assistance.


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    #521
    Grand Moff Tarkin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Grand Moff Tarkin


    end of the road wrote: »
    not at all. he needs to face no consiquences for protesting.

    He broke the laws of the land and is now doing the time.

    The only real crime here is the misuse of the Irish passport.


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    #522
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    end of the road wrote: »
    not at all. he needs to face no consiquences for protesting.

    hmmmmm There are three security men dead and many injured. He definitely wasnt protesting peacefully. A pawn in the bigger game.... and he is locked up and no use to either side. The boy took a lot of risks for someone else country .... guess it didnt pan out as he planned


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    #523
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Actually that is a great question!!! Where do you go from here? OR what is going through his mind.

    He called on the Irish ambassador, then turned down her offer after she brokered a deal of safe passage.
    This boy better be praying that the Brotherhood come to power sooner than later.

    I wonder if the Egyptians up graded the plumbing and sewage in the prison since the British left?
    I often wonder if they ever got around to sorting that diphtheria and hepatitis problems out?
    If he was where he should be he would be doing a trade or in college..... where a proper lad of his age should be.

    As for the comments about DeV having two passports ..... I bet the US embassy in London said you cant execute him if you want more Doughboys and industrial and food assistance in the War. DeV being the cute hoor, was probably waving the passport and took the first deal offered to him.


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    #524
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Beano wrote: »
    he is also an egyptian citizen. in eqypt. he is not entitled to any consular assistance.
    well he is getting it and rightly so

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #525
    Beano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,357 ✭✭✭Beano


    end of the road wrote: »
    well he is getting it and rightly so

    he has no right. the irish ambassador is doing it as a courtesy.


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    #526
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    He got the best deal ever ...... free ticket home, no jail or worse, no criminal record in the EU and back home in time for tea and medals ... just dont come back ever again.

    What did he do? P1ssed it against the wall and said "I am going to be a Hero.... " . Made the Ambassador (who is a woman in an Arab country) look even more foolish.

    This guy is so far from reality he must think he is playing HALO if he thinks he is going to respawn. On the other hand he is going to get his 70 virgins ..... pity they are all going to be Graham Northon


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    #527
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Beano wrote: »
    he has no right. the irish ambassador is doing it as a courtesy.
    he does have a right moraly as he is an irish citizen.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #528
    Grand Moff Tarkin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Grand Moff Tarkin


    end of the road wrote: »
    he does have a right moraly as he is an irish citizen.

    Who was advised by the Irish government not to travel in the first place.

    Why the government have not washed their hands of this idiot is beyond me.


  • Options
    #529
    Beano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,357 ✭✭✭Beano


    end of the road wrote: »
    he does have a right moraly as he is an irish citizen.

    and also an egyptian citizen. in eqypt. you seem to keep ignoring that.


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    #530
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    still missing answers which passport did he enter under? Bet it wasnt the Irish?
    When you have that dual nationality everyone loves you and you have loads of benefits. When you are a "Mucky Puppy" nobody wants you.
    You do realise this isnt getting the national attention in the press? Its an old story and the candle is burning low and fast for this guy.

    I bet if you pitched the story to the average person in the street that an Irish 17 year old was involved in a riot in Egypt without parental supervision. They would ask what the hell was he doing there in the first place. DoFA are always telling us it is unsafe.

    This story like this thread is getting cold fast and quick. After Christmas its going be all about the cold weather and the water rates ... shortly poor Ackmed is going to be forgotten about by both sides. There will be a change of govt here and they will be so far up to either eyeballs in it here .... if the current crowd had little time for him the next crowd will have less


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    #531
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Beano wrote: »
    and also an egyptian citizen. in eqypt. you seem to keep ignoring that.

    +1
    hmmm Some how I think the Egyptians position trumps the Irish one and he is in their position. Wouldnt you just love to have a gander about what his file looks like?
    Of course if we did get him back on a deal he would make a great informer with all those guys in the Clonskeagh Mosque.

    Changed my MIND. Bring that boy home to the loving arms of his Irish mammy. Give him a pot of stew and a sup of the "special stuff". Sure he can meet David Norris, have a mass said for him and sure we can have him up on the St Paddys Day Master of Cermonys with Shane McGowan.

    Sure isnt he one of "Our Own" now


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    #532
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    end of the road wrote: »
    when you slaughter you're own people for protesting, you lose any legitimacy you have

    Again says who? Post a link that OBJECTIVELY shows this statement to be true.

    Don't get me wrong I fuppin' delighted to live in a liberal western democracy. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else- but where is it writ that that is the only form of legitimate government?

    But we (as in the western world) arrogantly assume that our post-enlightenment view of the world is the superior one. Islam has yet to go through such an episode comparable to the enlightenment.

    I don't doubt that in the future people will look back and laugh at our society and be horrified by it in equal measure.

    .......and finally, given this country's history with interference from outside religious leaders (I'm specifically thinking of Laudabiliter), you think we'd not be encouraging people to go an interfere in other countries, especially if that interference is carried on by our own citizens.


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    #533
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »
    Who was advised by the Irish government not to travel in the first place.

    Why the government have not washed their hands of this idiot is beyond me.
    because he is an irish citizen, born in ireland, one of us

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #534
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    end of the road wrote: »
    he does have a right moraly as he is an irish citizen.

    You keep conveniently ignoring two points.

    First while he is an Irish citizen he also holds Egyptian citizenship. As has been explained, international law is quite clear on the point as is our own DFA's advice

    I'll re-state again for you, maybe this time it will take.....
    While consular assistance may be provided to dual nationals, the right of an Irish dual national to receive consular assistance from our Missions is effectively determined by the attitude of the host country in circumstances where the Irish citizen is detained either in the country of their other nationality, or is travelling on the passport of another country. Under International law, countries are not obliged to legally recognise dual citizenship/nationality, therefore, Irish citizens should be aware that travelling or visiting the country of their other citizenship may have implications for them and also they may be subject to laws which apply only to citizens of that country.

    The same page also clearly sets out the assistance they can provide to a detained citizen abroad - and they even managed to surpass themselves as regards that!!

    Second, he likely travelled on his Egyptian passport and not his Irish one.

    I'll accept the argument that we are morally obliged to help those in peril - but that obligation must be reciprocated and they are obliged to accept the help. In this case the ambassador went above and beyond and fulfilled any moral obligation we might have towards him, he declined the help.

    Case Closed!

    Next.......


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    #535
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    +1
    hmmm Some how I think the Egyptians position trumps the Irish one and he is in their position. Wouldnt you just love to have a gander about what his file looks like?
    Of course if we did get him back on a deal he would make a great informer with all those guys in the Clonskeagh Mosque.

    Changed my MIND. Bring that boy home to the loving arms of his Irish mammy. Give him a pot of stew and a sup of the "special stuff". Sure he can meet David Norris, have a mass said for him and sure we can have him up on the St Paddys Day Master of Cermonys with Shane McGowan.

    Sure isnt he one of "Our Own" now
    he was always one of our own. he was born here. a different skin colour and religion doesn't change that. he is irish.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Options
    #536
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Jawgap wrote: »
    You keep conveniently ignoring two points.

    First while he is an Irish citizen he also holds Egyptian citizenship. As has been explained, international law is quite clear on the point as is our own DFA's advice

    I'll re-state again for you, maybe this time it will take.....



    The same page also clearly sets out the assistance they can provide to a detained citizen abroad - and they even managed to surpass themselves as regards that!!

    Second, he likely travelled on his Egyptian passport and not his Irish one.

    I'll accept the argument that we are morally obliged to help those in peril - but that obligation must be reciprocated and they are obliged to accept the help. In this case the ambassador went above and beyond and fulfilled any moral obligation we might have towards him, he declined the help.

    Case Closed!

    Next.......
    case still open. not next at all. this irish citizen will be helped.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #537
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Again says who? Post a link that OBJECTIVELY shows this statement to be true.

    Don't get me wrong I fuppin' delighted to live in a liberal western democracy. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else- but where is it writ that that is the only form of legitimate government?

    But we (as in the western world) arrogantly assume that our post-enlightenment view of the world is the superior one. Islam has yet to go through such an episode comparable to the enlightenment.

    I don't doubt that in the future people will look back and laugh at our society and be horrified by it in equal measure.

    .......and finally, given this country's history with interference from outside religious leaders (I'm specifically thinking of Laudabiliter), you think we'd not be encouraging people to go an interfere in other countries, especially if that interference is carried on by our own citizens.

    no government who slaughters their own people is legitimate. democratically elected or dictatorship.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #538
    Grand Moff Tarkin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Grand Moff Tarkin


    end of the road wrote: »
    because he is an irish citizen, born in ireland, one of us

    One of us has no business being over there in the first place.

    You can't have your cake and eat it,


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    #539
    Beano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,357 ✭✭✭Beano


    end of the road wrote: »
    case still open. not next at all. this irish citizen will be helped.

    he has been offered help. he refused it.


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    #540
    Grand Moff Tarkin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Grand Moff Tarkin


    end of the road wrote: »
    no government who slaughters their own people is legitimate. democratically elected or dictatorship.

    How about a few links to back up what you are saying?


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    #541
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Islam has yet to go through such an episode comparable to the enlightenment.

    This is why I am saying Islam is not compatible with Irish culture. Islam does not allow the civil liberties and tolerances of Irish Culture.
    If you are going to be offended by me supping Murphys and having roast pork ... you would be better off with your own kind. If you cant hack Shirley Templebar doing the Bingo numbers or Women driving cars... this really isnt the country for you


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