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Irish Teen Fears Execution in Egypt

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    #782
    pmasterson95
    Registered Users Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭pmasterson95


    Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »
    Sorry now but when it comes to Muslim Brotherhood thanks but no thanks. My family and I enjoy living in the 21st century and have no wish to follow the hokey holy joe views they represent.
    And thats because they arent white catholics isnt it you monster


    Sarcasm



    Couldnt resist.


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    #783
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    FactCheck wrote: »
    What "State" would that be? The one that enjoyed decades of military rule while brutally repressing opposition? The one that interfered with free elections, and when that didn't work, instigated a violent military coup? The one that fired repeatedly on peaceful protestors, through the Arab Spring and beyond?

    I'm tremendously in favour of international law. You'll have to point me towards the international law that condones show trials of hundreds of defendants, months without trial or access to lawyers, imprisonment of journalists, and denial of citizenship.

    On the other hand, relocating defendants to stand trial or serve sentences in the native countries is in fact a well established principle of international law. The reason the junta won't hear of it is because there is no evidence whatsoever that this kid committed murder or attempted murder and attending a march is not a crime.

    Well, it's pretty clear what law applies to dual citizens and Irish consular staff went way, way above and beyond what was required of them to negotiate a deal for him and his sisters to come home (and I'm sure they regard here as home).

    He was stupid to get involved, he was stupid to make a speech and he was unlucky to get arrested - and he was extraordinarily stupid not to take the deal the ambassador negotiated for him.

    Stupidity is not a crime and he doesn't deserve to be punished for it - so if he is just someone who got swept up and carried away by events, why is he being touted as a 'prisoner of conscience' - that suggests he's making or looking to make a political point through his incarceration for his beliefs / convictions, which would be wholly at odds with the 'innocent abroad' narrative that's being pushed.

    So which is he - innocent abroad or prisoner of conscience?


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    #784
    FactCheck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭FactCheck


    Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »
    Sorry now but when it comes to Muslim Brotherhood thanks but no thanks. My family and I enjoy living in the 21st century and have no wish to follow the hokey holy joe views they represent.

    Do you not see the supreme irony in saying you support 21st century Western democracy, and then saying that you're happy to see an Irish citizen imprisoned without trial and then executed because you disagree with his political opinions?

    It doesn't matter what he believes. He has committed no crime and he's entitled to due process.

    How many other people would you like to lock up because you disagree with them politically? Personally, I am happy to be a citizen of a country where we imprison people for their crimes, not their opinions.


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    #785
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    FactCheck wrote: »
    Do you not see the supreme irony in saying you support 21st century Western democracy, and then saying that you're happy to see an Irish citizen imprisoned without trial and then executed because you disagree with his political opinions?

    It doesn't matter what he believes. He has committed no crime and he's entitled to due process.

    How many other people would you like to lock up because you disagree with them politically? Personally, I am happy to be a citizen of a country where we imprison people for their crimes, not their opinions.

    He's not being executed and he's getting due process.

    If he had concerns about the legal system in Egypt then perhaps it would served him well to have been careful to not fall foul of the authorities.


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    #786
    FactCheck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭FactCheck


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Well, it's pretty clear what law applies to dual citizens and Irish consular staff went way, way above and beyond what was required of them to negotiate a deal for him and his sisters to come home (and I'm sure they regard here as home).

    He was stupid to get involved, he was stupid to make a speech and he was unlucky to get arrested - and he was extraordinarily stupid not to take the deal the ambassador negotiated for him.

    Stupidity is not a crime and he doesn't deserve to be punished for it - so if he is just someone who got swept up and carried away by events, why is he being touted as a 'prisoner of conscience' - that suggests he's making or looking to make a political point through his incarceration for his beliefs / convictions, which would be wholly at odds with the 'innocent abroad' narrative that's being pushed.

    So which is he - innocent abroad or prisoner of conscience?

    I'm not touting any innocent abroad narrative. I'm well aware he supports the Muslim Brotherhood. I'm just saying he hasn't committed any crime whereas the military dictatorship's record is appalling and their respect for the rule of law is nil.

    Indeed in a way I think fair fcuks to him for drawing attention to mass show trials, political repression and execution of political opponents. Nobody gives a **** when these ****holes repress their own people. At least he's drawing international attention to the junta.

    And I'm honestly fairly shocked at the pleasure so many Irish people (not just here but on the likes of the Journal) are taking in watching a teenager get executed, not for committing any crime whatsoever, but purely because they disagree with him politically.

    Like, it's not exactly taking the high road.


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    #787
    FactCheck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭FactCheck


    Jawgap wrote: »
    He's not being executed and he's getting due process.

    If he had concerns about the legal system in Egypt then perhaps it would served him well to have been careful to not fall foul of the authorities.

    There were no authorities! The country was in chaos following a military coup!

    There were no laws! Sisi shat all over the laws!


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    #788
    Grand Moff Tarkin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Grand Moff Tarkin


    FactCheck wrote: »
    Do you not see the supreme irony in saying you support 21st century Western democracy, and then saying that you're happy to see an Irish citizen imprisoned without trial and then executed because you disagree with his political opinions?

    It doesn't matter what he believes. He has committed no crime and he's entitled to due process.

    How many other people would you like to lock up because you disagree with them politically? Personally, I am happy to be a citizen of a country where we imprison people for their crimes, not their opinions.

    What would you call getting involved in a riot?


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    #789
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    FactCheck wrote: »
    I'm not touting any innocent abroad narrative. I'm well aware he supports the Muslim Brotherhood. I'm just saying he hasn't committed any crime whereas the military dictatorship's record is appalling and their respect for the rule of law is nil.

    Indeed in a way I think fair fcuks to him for drawing attention to mass show trials, political repression and execution of political opponents. Nobody gives a **** when these ****holes repress their own people. At least he's drawing international attention to the junta.

    And I'm honestly fairly shocked at the pleasure so many Irish people (not just here but on the likes of the Journal) are taking in watching a teenager get executed, not for committing any crime whatsoever, but purely because they disagree with him politically.

    Like, it's not exactly taking the high road.

    So we hasn't on a family holiday?

    Nobody, to my mind, is taking any pleasure from his situation - what is annoying people is the yarn they are being spun about this lad going on a family holiday and getting caught up in all this. Frankly, it doesn't stack up and it would be better if they just came out and told the truth.


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    #790
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    FactCheck wrote: »
    There were no authorities! The country was in chaos following a military coup!

    There were no laws! Sisi shat all over the laws!

    Sisi was elected - it's not his fault if the MB chose to boycott the elections - let me guess, it was only ever going to be a fair election if he lost, because it was beyond the bounds of possibility that a fair election could put him in power!!


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    #791
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    FactCheck wrote: »
    There were no authorities! The country was in chaos following a military coup!

    There were no laws! Sisi shat all over the laws!

    No authorities, country in chaos, no laws.

    Ibrahim, we've made a deal with the authorities for you and your sisters to go back to Ireland

    No thanks, I'll stay here.

    He made his choice quite clearly.


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    #792
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,312 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    So much noise and attempted obfuscation of the facts imo:

    - Egyptian citizen;
    - in Egyptian jurisdiction;
    - agitates against current Egyptian regime;
    - gets caught;
    - Irish State representative negotiates deal to get him back to Ireland;
    - he refuses;

    We're done here.


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    #793
    FactCheck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭FactCheck


    Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »
    What would you call getting involved in a riot?

    There is not a shred of evidence he was rioting. Not in 18 months. There is considerable evidence of him participating in peaceful demonstrations, which are not against the law in any civilised country.


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    #794
    JONJO THE MISER
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 12,333 ✭✭✭✭JONJO THE MISER


    Amnesty international protesting about this, he was with the muslim brotherhood the same people who are connected to isis, fecking idiots protesting on his behalf.


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    #795
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    FactCheck wrote: »
    There is not a shred of evidence he was rioting. Not in 18 months. There is considerable evidence of him participating in peaceful demonstrations, which are not against the law in any civilised country.

    And you've seen all of the evidence?? CCTV, if any. Photos? witness statements?? Where could I find all of the evidence of the case? I'd like to read up on it so I can get a clearer picture.


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    #796
    FactCheck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭FactCheck


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Sisi was elected - it's not his fault if the MB chose to boycott the elections - let me guess, it was only ever going to be a fair election if he lost, because it was beyond the bounds of possibility that a fair election could put him in power!!

    What? He was "elected" in May 2014. The demonstrations that Halawi was arrested for took place in August 2013. They followed the military coup of July 2013. When the Halawis arrived in Egypt in June 2013, Morsi's elected government was still in power.

    You don't mean to use those scare quotes, right? I mean there is literally no outside or neutral source that could deny the army has interfered with, manipulated, and bought every election held in Egypt. There is nothing legitimate about the military dictatorship - and there certainly wasn't in the summer of 2013.

    To be honest, I've responded to everything you've said honestly, pleasantly, and in good faith, but it feels like there's not much point discussing this if you want to talk about it without knowing the most basic facts about the political situation in Egypt.


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    #797
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Nodin wrote: »
    And of course the multiple generous offers to send him a range of pork products and alcohol should in no way be considered sectarian or discriminatory acts.
    and of course not forgetting that some of the posters coming out with such stuff and more are known to have questionable views in relation to those of a different skin colour and religion.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #798
    FactCheck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭FactCheck


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    And you've seen all of the evidence?? CCTV, if any. Photos? witness statements?? Where could I find all of the evidence of the case? I'd like to read up on it so I can get a clearer picture.

    There is a ton of CCTV evidence of him at various peaceful demonstrations.

    The junta has not presented a shred of evidence to suggest he was "rioting" in 18 months without trial.

    No government has the right to imprison people without trial and without evidence. Even their political opponents. Indeed - especially their political opponents.


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    #799
    Grand Moff Tarkin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Grand Moff Tarkin


    end of the road wrote: »
    and of course not forgetting that some of the posters coming out with such stuff and more are known to have questionable views in relation to those of a different skin colour and religion.

    Clutching at straws now so why don't we get back to personal resposabilty and the young man accepting his mistakes.


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    #800
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    FactCheck wrote: »
    What? He was "elected" in May 2014. The demonstrations that Halawi was arrested for took place in August 2013. They followed the military coup of July 2013. When the Halawis arrived in Egypt in June 2013, Morsi's elected government was still in power.

    You don't mean to use those scare quotes, right? I mean there is literally no outside or neutral source that could deny the army has interfered with, manipulated, and bought every election held in Egypt. There is nothing legitimate about the military dictatorship - and there certainly wasn't in the summer of 2013.

    To be honest, I've responded to everything you've said honestly, pleasantly, and in good faith, but it feels like there's not much point discussing this if you want to talk about it without knowing the most basic facts about the political situation in Egypt.

    Good, you should have no problem whacking up a link......

    So, kid goes to Egypt - while there, a military coup happens - kid decides to protest against military coup (because that's what you do on a family holiday) - kid is surprised when military authorities fail to respect his 'right' to peaceful protest - ambassador helps kid - kid refuses help.......

    We'd be infinitely better leaving him to the fate he chose for himself and getting our diplomatic and consular resources behind Caroline Dwyer and her quest for justice for the extra-judicial execution of her son......rather than wasting further resources on this attention-seeking brat.


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    #801
    FactCheck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭FactCheck


    FactCheck wrote: »
    Do you not see the supreme irony in saying you support 21st century Western democracy, and then saying that you're happy to see an Irish citizen imprisoned without trial and then executed because you disagree with his political opinions?

    It doesn't matter what he believes. He has committed no crime and he's entitled to due process.

    How many other people would you like to lock up because you disagree with them politically? Personally, I am happy to be a citizen of a country where we imprison people for their crimes, not their opinions.

    Hey maybe I could get an answer to some of this?

    Do you actually support locking people up without trial for their political beliefs?

    And if so is it just the Muslim Brotherhood or what?


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    #802
    Odyssey 2005
    Registered Users Posts: 21,065 ✭✭✭✭Odyssey 2005


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    So much noise and attempted obfuscation of the facts imo:

    - Egyptian citizen;
    - in Egyptian jurisdiction;
    - agitates against current Egyptian regime;
    - gets caught;
    - Irish State representative negotiates deal to get him back to Ireland;
    - he refuses;

    We're done here.

    The voice of reason indeed...🏁🏆


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    #803
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,312 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Martin_Dwyer

    I had no sympathy with this case either. We live in a world of sovereign jurisdictions. If Irish people travel abroad to them in order to get involved with enemies of the powers that be they're playing with fire and can't be helped imo.


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    #804
    Grand Moff Tarkin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Grand Moff Tarkin


    FactCheck wrote: »
    Hey maybe I could get an answer to some of this?

    Do you actually support locking people up without trial for their political beliefs?

    And if so is it just the Muslim Brotherhood or what?

    If those political beliefs are against everything that western civilisation stands for than yes I am. Lock them up for a very long time as they are the type of people who would be happy to become human bombs just to make a point.


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    #805
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    FactCheck wrote: »
    There is a ton of CCTV evidence of him at various peaceful demonstrations.

    The junta has not presented a shred of evidence to suggest he was "rioting" in 18 months without trial.

    No government has the right to imprison people without trial and without evidence. Even their political opponents. Indeed - especially their political opponents.

    Of course they can - you can be banged up here for 7 days on the say so of a Chief Super and Art 40.5 of the Constitution allows very clearly for the suspension of Habeas Corpus - so even our government has the right, if the associated conditions are met.


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    #806
    FactCheck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭FactCheck


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Good, you should have no problem whacking up a link......

    Yeah, this'll be the last time I engage with someone who has no knowledge of what they're talking about mind. And no interest in debate or having one's mind changed. Sure you decided what to think pages ago! Why would ya want to be learning new things...

    Here and here and here are links describing the army's (unsuccessful) interference in the 2012 elections. Here is an article describing their July 2013 military coup. And just to stay up to date, here's an article describing their manipulation of the "elections" in May 2014.


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    #807
    FactCheck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭FactCheck


    Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »
    If those political beliefs are against everything that western civilisation stands for than yes I am. Lock them up for a very long time as they are the type of people who would be happy to become human bombs just to make a point.

    See I reckon one of the cornerstones of western civilisation is allowing people freedom of expression. And preventing governments from locking up their political opponents.

    When they're committing crimes, bang em up. But an opinion is not a crime.


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    #808
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Jawgap wrote: »
    He's not being executed

    yet.
    Jawgap wrote: »
    he's getting due process.

    sure. in a country who slaughters its citizens ruled by a corrupt military junta
    Jawgap wrote: »
    If he had concerns about the legal system in Egypt then perhaps it would served him well to have been careful to not fall foul of the authorities.

    he didn't commit any crime. so its the authorities who are wrong.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #809
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,073 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »
    What would you call getting involved in a riot?
    well if he had, as its egypt, ruled by a corrupt military junta, i'd say no crime commited, andfare ****s to him

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #810
    FactCheck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭FactCheck


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Of course they can - you can be banged up here for 7 days on the say so of a Chief Super and Art 40.5 of the Constitution allows very clearly for the suspension of Habeas Corpus - so even our government has the right, if the associated conditions are met.

    Seriously, this and the whole "he's not being executed" when he's having a show trial with the death penalty conducted by a dictatorship that executes its opponents is just embarrassingly petty.

    You'll be calling out typos and grammer :pac: mistakes next.


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    #811
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    FactCheck wrote: »
    Yeah, this'll be the last time I engage with someone who has no knowledge of what they're talking about mind. And no interest in debate or having one's mind changed. Sure you decided what to think pages ago! Why would ya want to be learning new things...

    Here and here and here are links describing the army's (unsuccessful) interference in the 2012 elections. Here is an article describing their July 2013 military coup. And just to stay up to date, here's an article describing their manipulation of the "elections" in May 2014.

    So in that type of environment you still think it was wise for a 17 year old to go protesting? And somehow people are surprised his personal freedoms were not respected?


This discussion has been closed.
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