Irish Teen Fears Execution in Egypt

Nodin

darkpagandeath wrote: »

And again If you have evidence of this being false please give it to the Egyptian embassy so they can forward it to the authorities and amend their mistake. We can do this all day. Not believing the charges is an opinion, You me anyone has no idea what the evidence is.

....its for the prosecution to prove their case, not for me to disprove it.

darkpagandeath

Nodin wrote: »

....its for the prosecution to prove their case, not for me to disprove it.

I guess they have not had a chance yet due to the case being adjourned what 4 times now ? On a side note if they produce cctv for example what then ?

Nodin

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I guess they have not had a chance yet due to the case being adjourned what 4 times now ? On a side note if they produce cctv for example what then ?

CCTV of him being involved in murder? Then he'd be in trouble. Of course that raises the question of why they're charging 493 others.

darkpagandeath

Nodin wrote: »

CCTV of him being involved in murder? Then he'd be in trouble. Of course that raises the question of why they're charging 493 others.

Well you may have to take that one up with the Egyptian courts, I unfortunately like many are not an expert on Egyptian law.

KingBrian2

Their is at least one fact in all of this 30 jihadists have travelled from Ireland to fight in the Muslim world of what we know. This is unacceptable, whatever the case about this person we as a nation should not allow anyone travel to another country to stage an armed uprising. Many Muslims live in exile but letting them return to their homelands may be worse for all involved.

A little surprised Muslim states have not reacted more harshly to western countries allowing exiled return home to cause a rebellion. I would have half expected they would close down our embassies in protest.

AlekSmart

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Well you may have to take that one up with the Egyptian courts, I unfortunately like many are not an expert on Egyptian law.

Yet,we appear to be surrounded with such people ?

Whether we like it or not,Egypt's internal political situation is a fraught one,a situation not unknown in a region well used to instability and violence dating back to antiquity.

Mr Halawa,as an impending UCD entrant,was presumably a well balanced product of our education system,with a fairly broad understanding of the worlds political situation as a result ?

The evidence so far,indicates that the Halawa's as a family,attended more than one anti-government rally,and were to the forefront of declarations of international youthful defiance to the regime.

The issue of Mr Halawa's dual-nationality is little more than a red-herring,as the Irish Consulate has very obviously devoted a great deal of resources into ensuring Mr Halawa is treated humanely,which would appear to be the case,given his ability to communicate to his family so far.

As it stands,Mr Halawa is charged,along with hundreds of other co-defendants with several serious crimes under Egyptian law.

I'm uncertain whether the Egyptian Law "experts" are suggesting that he should have been allowed walk-away simply by virtue of his Irishness,or whether,having turned down this chance,he can have another go,this time after enabling a significant anti Egyptian protest campaign designed to embarrass and denounce the Egyptian Government.....?

AlekSmart

KingBrian2 wrote: »

A little surprised Muslim states have not reacted more harshly to western countries allowing exiled return home to cause a rebellion. I would have half expected they would close down our embassies in protest.

Indeed,one might wonder,Your Majesty,whether some of these oft denigrated oppressive regime's are quite as bad as they are painted ?

That said,I have no desire whatever to travel to them in order to test out my theories.....and if I did,I would not expect the Irish Ambassador to come riding to my rescue :rolleyes:

darkpagandeath

AlekSmart wrote: »

Yet,we appear to be surrounded with such people ?

Whether we like it or not,Egypt's internal political situation is a fraught one,a situation not unknown in a region well used to instability and violence dating back to antiquity.

Mr Halawa,as an impending UCD entrant,was presumably a well balanced product of our education system,with a fairly broad understanding of the worlds political situation as a result ?

The evidence so far,indicates that the Halawa's as a family,attended more than one anti-government rally,and were to the forefront of declarations of international youthful defiance to the regime.

The issue of Mr Halawa's dual-nationality is little more than a red-herring,as the Irish Consulate has very obviously devoted a great deal of resources into ensuring Mr Halawa is treated humanely,which would appear to be the case,given his ability to communicate to his family so far.

As it stands,Mr Halawa is charged,along with hundreds of other co-defendants with several serious crimes under Egyptian law.

I'm uncertain whether the Egyptian Law "experts" are suggesting that he should have been allowed walk-away simply by virtue of his Irishness,or whether,having turned down this chance,he can have another go,this time after enabling a significant anti Egyptian protest campaign designed to embarrass and denounce the Egyptian Government.....?

He would have one other option at the moment, Renounce his Egyptian citizenship. But I'm guessing he would have to be fast tracked an Irish passport having torn his original up. But saying that, everyone that got into trouble in one of their countries of citizenship would be doing that. And would probably not fly with His Fellow Egyptians.

weldoninhio

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

According to Amnesty international Halawa who continue to be imprisoned for 15 month so far without a trail is charged with the following:

http://www.amnesty.ie/news/ibrahim-halawa-must-be-released-immediately

This was Ibrahim Halawa last moments trapped inside the Fatih Mosque while being surrounded by the police before being arrested the panic in him and those around him is clear, charges 1,2,6,7 and 8 are utter right ridiculous and he is evidently innocent of them. I was wrong when I said completely innocent as it is to strong of a sentiment since it appears that he can only be prosecuted under the 4th and 5th charges with the 493 other detainees, and what's worrying his family and close friends is that to this point he has not been given a fair trail and it appears that he wont be as it continue to be delayed .

"I came back to my country (Egypt) to stay, this is my country" - seems to have changed his tune a bit since then eh??

Edit: "I'm willing to give my life", again big turnaround now when the deficate has hit the fan.

That video looks for all intents and purposes a propaganda tool for the people in the mosque. How a 2 minute video proves he isnt guilty of the crimes he is charged with is beyond me.

If I ever happen to murder someone I'll whack a quick video up on YouTube and the judge can find me innocent.

DavidRamsay99

Halawa is a supporter of the Muslims Brotherhood who aim to create an Islamic Caliphate.
We have seen what the Muslim Brotherhood did to Coptic Christians in Egypt already.
We have seen what an Islamic Caliphate looks like and operates in the areas of Syria and Iraq conquered by ISIS since Obama's cowardly troop withdrawal.
Halawa can die as far as I am concerned.
Good riddance.

skooterblue2

weldoninhio wrote: »

Edit: "I'm willing to give my life", again big turnaround now when the deficate has hit the fan.

I dont think you are in any position to judge him giving his life. I fully support his decision and hope to hear about it before the kettle boils for my hot water bottle.

Are we done yet, or should I have a cup of tea first?

feargale

feargale wrote: »

How many got hurt and killed? How did this happen? Who hurt/killed them?

??????

darkpagandeath

"I came back to my country" pretty much resolves this, anyone any ideas ? maybe send in the Irish rangers to save a foreign national ? and an islamic matter.. hmm what does that mean

but I am looking up what Irish dog's rights are.

I have one last question. The Irish Ambassador must have seen all these videos. Why continue to facilitate a person who is clearly an Egyptian, He got a get out of jail one time yet said "screw all your hard work" I'm staying here.

NIMAN

He ain't Irish really, is he?

Annasopra

NIMAN wrote: »

He ain't Irish really, is he?

Yes

denhaagenite

weldoninhio wrote: »

"I came back to my country (Egypt) to stay, this is my country" - seems to have changed his tune a bit since then eh??

Edit: "I'm willing to give my life", again big turnaround now when the deficate has hit the fan.

That video looks for all intents and purposes a propaganda tool for the people in the mosque. How a 2 minute video proves he isnt guilty of the crimes he is charged with is beyond me.

If I ever happen to murder someone I'll whack a quick video up on YouTube and the judge can find me innocent.

He's calling for an Irish State?? The Fenians would be proud

SILVAMAN

If the punk can go to agitate in a foreign country, he's old enough to take the consequences.
He refused to see how good he had it in Ireland.
What are his views on equality of the sexes? Is he anti-gay? Does he accept Bunreacht na hEireann or will he agitate for the imposition of Islamic law here? Hang him and send a clear message.

Annasopra

SILVAMAN wrote: »

If the punk can go to agitate in a foreign country, he's old enough to take the consequences.
He refused to see how good he had it in Ireland.
What are his views on equality of the sexes? Is he anti-gay? Does he accept Bunreacht na hEireann or will he agitate for the imposition of Islamic law here? Hang him and send a clear message.

I always find this feigned concern for lgbt and womens rights amusing

skooterblue2

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I guess they have not had a chance yet due to the case being adjourned what 4 times now ? On a side note if they produce cctv for example what then ?

Maybe the Egyptian Government want this trial to get lost in the Media and when all the hype is over and the press have moved on and gotten tired with the story then give him 25 to life. If they execute him he becomes a martyr and if they send him home to Ireland he comes back in 6 months with 20 young lads after telling them the Irish passport is an "International Get out of jail Card".

I said I was talking to a moderate muslim solicitor over the weekend. He said we have to find a way of recovering these Irish passports, given to Jihadist and Radical clerics. Ireland is becoming a place where fundamentalist can recruit and find safe havens. He said moderate muslims, Christians and Athiests are all legitimate targets.

skooterblue2

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I always find this feigned concern for lgbt and womens rights amusing

........ and when these boys come to power over here .... you do know you are on their "to do list", cos the Quran told them so.

Turkeys voting for Christmas..... twice, with three scoops of mash and gravy?

Zack Morris

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I always find this feigned concern for lgbt and womens rights amusing

Same here. When I see a moderator of a LGBT forum defending religions that persecute the LGBT community, I wounder if he or she is actually a proponent of gay rights.

I guess if the Islamic world doesn't need gay rights, then Ireland doesn't need them either.

Defender OF Faith

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Their is at least one fact in all of this 30 jihadists have travelled from Ireland to fight in the Muslim world of what we know...

Where is your source? proof?

darkpagandeath wrote: »

He would have one other option at the moment, Renounce his Egyptian citizenship. But I'm guessing he would have to be fast tracked an Irish passport having torn his original up. But saying that, everyone that got into trouble in one of their countries of citizenship would be doing that. And would probably not fly with His Fellow Egyptians.

How do you know he did? where is your source?

skooterblue2 wrote: »

........ and when these boys come to power over here .... you do know you are on their "to do list", cos the Quran told them so.

I dare you to point a single verse in the Qur'an that explicitly sanctions that killing of homosexuals just because of their homosexuals tendencies.

Jawgap

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Where is your source? proof?

How do you know he did? where is your source?

I dare you to point a single verse in the Qur'an that explicitly sanctions that killing of homosexuals just because of their homosexuals tendencies.

One or two Hadiths are quite explicit on the point....

Book 38, Number 4447:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.

Book 38, Number 4448:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:

If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death.

Defender OF Faith

Jawgap wrote: »

One or two Hadiths are quite explicit on the point....

I think I explicitly have said the Qur'an and skooterblue2 have explicitly referenced to the Qur'an which the Muslims believe to be the literal word of God, surely if killing the homosexuals because of their tendencies was so important God before his prophet will reveal it in the Qur'an and commands Muslims to kill them, and since you believe Muhammed to be the author of the Qur'an it makes more sense to include such an important command in the book he authored and claimed to be the word of God & hence I still dare you to present a single verse in the Qur'an that sanctions killing of homosexuals because of their homosexuals tendencies.

I can say that the Hadith is an oral tradition - things were not written down for centuries, they were passed down orally where there is a high possibility that they have been altered, changed or invented. Unlike the Qur'an which was written down at the time of Muhammed and then collected after his death, can you prove the authenticity of the Hadith you presented as actual sayings of Muhammed? did you study the sciences of Hadith?

Jawgap

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

I think I explicitly have said the Qur'an and skooterblue2 have explicitly referenced to the Qur'an which the Muslims believe to be the literal word of God surely if killing the homosexuals because of their tendencies was so important God before his prophet will reveal it in the Qur'an and commands Muslims to kill them & hence I still dare you to present a single verse in the Qur'an that sanctions killing of homosexuals because of their homosexuals tendencies.

I can say that the Hadith is an oral tradition - things were not written down for centuries, they were passed down orally where there is a high possibility that they have been altered, changed or invented. Unlike the Qur'an which was written down at the time of Muhammed and then collected after his death, can you prove the authenticity of the Hadith you presented as actual sayings of Muhammed? did you study the sciences of Hadith?

Actually the a lot of the Hadiths were codified in the 8th & 9th centuries. ......anyway I'm glad you asked, this is from A Guide to Understanding Islam.....

Qur'an (7:80-84) - "...For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.... And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)" - An account that is borrowed from the Biblical story of Sodom. Muslim scholars through the centuries have interpreted the "rain of stones" on the town as meaning that homosexuals should be stoned, since no other reason is given for the people's destruction.

When Mehmed conquered Constantinople in 1453, the Muslim general demanded the 14-year-old son of one of the city's Christian leaders as his sexual concubine (the father and son chose death instead). Subsequent Ottoman administrators also engaged in homosexuality, often with the boys of conquered populations who could not afford to satisfy the jizya (poll tax on non-Muslims) in any other way than to relinquish their own children to the Religion of Peace.

And yet, homosexuals have been beheaded, hung and stoned in modern Saudi Arabia and Iran, where Muhammad's laws are applied most strictly. Five other Muslim countries also have the death penalty on their books for homosexual behavior. In the past, gays were burned as well. As one cleric recently put it, the only point of theological debate is over how the offender should be killed.

This illustrates the moral confusion that Islam has with homosexuality. Small wonder that the Islamic Republic of Iran hangs gays but allows men to get a sex change (sometimes at public expense).

There are several places in the Qur'an where the story of Sodom is repeated, with emphasis placed on the destruction of the town for homosexual lewdness. Also, according to Serge Trifkovic:

Mohammed’s first successor Abu Bakr reportedly had a homosexual burned at the stake. The fourth caliph, Mohammed’s son-in-law Ali, ordered a sodomite thrown from the minaret of a mosque. Others he ordered to be stoned. One of the earliest and most authoritative commentators on the Koran, Ibn ‘Abbas (died 687) blended both approaches into a two-step execution in which “the sodomite should be thrown from the highest building in the town and then stoned.

Ayatollah Abdollah Javadi-Amoli of Iran said, in April of 2012, that homosexuals are inferior to dogs and pigs, since these animals (presumably) do not engage in such acts. In November of that year, a cleric on British television stated, "What should be done to those who practice homosexuality? Torture them; punish them; beat them and give them mental torture."

skooterblue2

Jawgap wrote: »

One or two Hadiths are quite explicit on the point....

thats enough for me

Defender OF Faith

Jawgap wrote: »

Actually the a lot of the Hadiths were codified in the 8th & 9th centuries. ......anyway I'm glad you asked, this is from A Guide to Understanding Islam.....

Muhammed died in the 6th centaury your talking 200 years after his death..


Intersesting that your source of information is directly copied form http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/026-homosexuality.htm a well known and established anti-Islamic site with a clear bias and hatred toward Islam written by people with no Qualification in Islamic scholarship, Arabic Qur'an or Hadith, so I simply cannot take their words seriously.

When Mehmed conquered Constantinople in 1453, the Muslim general demanded the 14-year-old son of one of the city's Christian leaders as his sexual concubine (the father and son chose death instead). Subsequent Ottoman administrators also engaged in homosexuality, often with the boys of conquered populations who could not afford to satisfy the jizya (poll tax on non-Muslims) in any other way than to relinquish their own children to the Religion of Peace.

I would like to see the source of this story from an authenticated history book or a renounced historian who verified it since the site it's copied from provided little to no reference with regard to its authenticity which is expected from such sites.

Qur'an (7:80-84) - "...For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.... And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)" -

I cant seem to find Allah's command for the Muslims to kill the homosexuals in this verse.

Here are the full 4 verses in context with the 6 different translations used by Muslims: http://quran.com/7/80-84

skooterblue2 wrote: »

thats enough for me

Good your ignorance regarding the Qur'an has been proven then which was my point all along, why don't you actually open the Qur'an and read it rather then speak cluelessly about a book which you never even read and attribute lies and fabrication to it.

skooterblue2

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

I think I explicitly have said the Qur'an and skooterblue2 have explicitly referenced to the Qur'an which the Muslims believe to be the literal word of God, surely if killing the homosexuals because of their tendencies was so important God before his prophet will reveal it in the Qur'an and commands Muslims to kill them, and since you believe Muhammed to be the author of the Qur'an it makes more sense to include such an important command in the book he authored and claimed to be the word of God & hence I still dare you to present a single verse in the Qur'an that sanctions killing of homosexuals because of their homosexuals tendencies.

I can say that the Hadith is an oral tradition - things were not written down for centuries, they were passed down orally where there is a high possibility that they have been altered, changed or invented. Unlike the Qur'an which was written down at the time of Muhammed and then collected after his death, can you prove the authenticity of the Hadith you presented as actual sayings of Muhammed? did you study the sciences of Hadith?

Hey look you get the Imman in the Mosque in Clonskeagh to go to the refurbishment of The George and hey I will buy you and all your friends a round of drinks in the Panti Bar or Mr Pussys Cafe. I think I could be easily forgiven for thinking Islam was homophobic.

Defender OF Faith

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Hey look you get the Imman in the Mosque in Clonskeagh to go to the refurbishment of The George and hey I will buy you and all your friends a round of drinks in the Panti Bar or Mr Pussys Cafe. I think I could be easily forgiven for thinking Islam was homophobic.

You attributed falsely a verse and a command to the Qur'an which you mistakenly presumed to be in the Qur'an. I wonder what even planted that assumption in your head to begin with hence why I kindly suggested that you actually read the Qur'an. If you say X or Y is in the Qur'an a lot of people here have clearly not read the Qur'an and will accept what you say without validation it's your duty to be honest with regard to what you quote and attribute.

skooterblue2

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Muhammed died in the 6th centaury your talking 200 years after his death..


Intersesting that your source of information is directly copied form http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/026-homosexuality.htm a well known and established anti-Islamic site with a clear bias and hatred toward Islam written by people with no Qualification in Islamic scholarship, Arabic Qur'an or Hadith, so I simply cannot take their words seriously.


I would like to see the source of this story from an authenticated history book or a renounced historian who verified it since the site it's copied from provided little to no reference with regard to its authenticity which is expected from such sites.

I cant seem to find Allah's command for the Muslims to kill the homosexuals in this verse..

Good your ignorance regarding the Qur'an has been proven then which was my point all along, why don't you actually open the Qur'an and read it rather then speak cluelessly about a book which you never even read and attribute lies and fabrication to it.

Spare me all the Jibber jabber .... just find me 30 year old muslim guy in the mosque wearing a rainbow t-shirt and and saying "equal rights for all". hey I will take it all back. The fact of the matter is traditional Muslim are strongly homophobic