Irish Teen Fears Execution in Egypt

ohnonotgmail

AlekSmart wrote: »

Please do,perhaps then include a selection of those Egyptians for whom a Moslim Brotherhood,Sharia inspired everyday rule would impose far more draconian living than anything the Al-Sissi regime imposes...?

i think you have me backwards my friend. I am no supporter of the MB regime.

my friend

Here's hoping Egypt is emboldened by the strength of conviction against the face of populism shown in Indonesia overnight

end of the road

my friend wrote: »

Here's hoping Egypt is emboldened by the strength of conviction against the face of populism shown in Indonesia overnight

you mean the acts of butchery that will mean the country is still a drug riddled **** hole? lol

Ash.J.Williams

i have to say i did nearly sh1t myself in an antique shop in luxor in the early hours one morning with a bag of weed faced with a gang of armed police....our host just gave them a few quid and they left

AlekSmart

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

i have to say i did nearly sh1t myself in an antique shop in luxor in the early hours one morning with a bag of weed faced with a gang of armed police....our host just gave them a few quid and they left

Ashes to Ashes...dust to dust......crossing palm's with silver etc etc....They probably have'nt had a "Whistleblower" event in Cairo's Police Force yet ? :eek:

Ash.J.Williams

AlekSmart wrote: »

Ashes to Ashes...dust to dust......crossing palm's with silver etc etc....They probably have'nt had a "Whistleblower" event in Cairo's Police Force yet ? :eek:

Nail on head! I think that's why sharia is attractive to many people.

allibastor

Sod the young chap. He got himself there, he can get himself back

KingBrian2

end of the road wrote: »

you mean the acts of butchery that will mean the country is still a drug riddled **** hole? lol

Drug smugglers executed in accordance with Indonesian statutes. In Syria, treason is capital punishment offence & in the USA the death penalty is used in multiple state jurisdictions. Each country has their own laws, I see no issue with different cultures setting out their own laws. You go to a foreign land you practise and obey the laws of the land.

RecordStraight

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Drug Smugglers executed in accordance with Indonesian Statutes. In Syria Treason is Capital Punishment offence & in the USA the death penalty is used in multiple state jurisdictions. Each Country has their own laws, I see no issue with different cultures setting out their own laws. You go to a foreign land you practise and obey the laws of the land.

Indeed. Let's not forget that all these 'victims' of harsh punishments are volunteers.

end of the road

allibastor wrote: »

Sod the young chap. He got himself there, he can get himself back

well if they let him go i'm sure he will do exactly that.

end of the road

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Drug smugglers executed in accordance with Indonesian statutes. In Syria, treason is capital punishment offence & in the USA the death penalty is used in multiple state jurisdictions. Each country has their own laws, I see no issue with different cultures setting out their own laws. You go to a foreign land you practise and obey the laws of the land.

i wouldn't bother going to these **** holes and giving them the luxury of me obeying or respecting their savagery

allibastor

end of the road wrote: »

i wouldn't bother going to these **** holes and giving them the luxury of me obeying or respecting their savagery

We let them in here though, then moan about it when they are not allowed Home

K.Flyer

end of the road wrote: »

i wouldn't bother going to these **** holes and giving them the luxury of me obeying or respecting their savagery

But you are happy to support someone, and his family, whose culture and ideals are based around that type of lifestyle that you refer to as savagery. :rolleyes:

darkpagandeath

end of the road wrote: »

i wouldn't bother going to these **** holes and giving them the luxury of me obeying or respecting their savagery

You will probably find their "Culture" is a lot older than than here.

KingBrian2

Very very strange we call their cultures savage yet allow them reside in our midst. We expect the same from any new comer to our shores, comply with our laws, behave in a conduct that we can relate to and is non intrusive, long may you experience the freedom and friendliness of our people.

P.S. don't sell us contraband

h2005

RecordStraight wrote: »

Indeed. Let's not forget that all these 'victims' of harsh punishments are volunteers.

Including the Filipino lady who was granted a last minute reprieve when the person who planted the drugs on her was found.

end of the road

K.Flyer wrote: »

But you are happy to support someone, and his family, whose culture and ideals are based around that type of lifestyle that you refer to as savagery.

i'm not "supporting" anyone. i believe that the up coming trial of this irish lad will be nothing short of a cangaroo court, and any trials under this and any other military junta or dictator cannot be trusted

KingBrian2

end of the road wrote: »

i'm not "supporting" anyone. i believe that the up coming trial of this irish lad will be nothing short of a cangaroo court, and any trials under this and any other military junta or dictator cannot be trusted

Even if he is abiding by the customs of his people. Lets be honest for a second, you expect gvt to roll over and ignore custom which is culturally ingrained in these societies. Western Societies only had universal suffrage a century ago. These place have a long way to go but it is for them to travel. They may not even need the sort of laws that we have. Stop equating life in Cairo to life in rural Ireland. We have so many differences. The most obvious is the separation of church and state while over there the military is the secular aspect of life. To deny them a military gvt is to uproot officials that have been exposed to international influence a return to a protectionist economy.

RecordStraight

h2005 wrote: »

Including the Filipino lady who was granted a last minute reprieve when the person who planted the drugs on her was found.

The innocent person? Who by definition...uh...isn't guilty? And therefore is not a volunteer?

h2005

RecordStraight wrote: »

The innocent person? Who by definition...uh...isn't guilty? And therefore is not a volunteer?

Who none the less was sentenced to death only to receive a last minute reprieve. No one volunteered to be killed.

RecordStraight

h2005 wrote: »

Who none the less was sentenced to death only to receive a last minute reprieve. No one volunteered to be killed.

The guilty people who commit crimes that carry the death sentence are volunteers - unless they have no free will?

sid waddell

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Drug smugglers executed in accordance with Indonesian statutes. In Syria, treason is capital punishment offence & in the USA the death penalty is used in multiple state jurisdictions. Each country has their own laws, I see no issue with different cultures setting out their own laws. You go to a foreign land you practise and obey the laws of the land.

Adultery is an offence that can be punishable by death in Saudi Arabia. I presume you're fine with that too.

h2005

RecordStraight wrote: »

The guilty people who commit crimes that carry the death sentence are volunteers - unless they have no free will?

Ah right. What about the innocent ones who are killed what's your term for them?

RecordStraight

h2005 wrote: »

Ah right. What about the innocent ones who are killed what's your term for them?

Miscarriage of justice. Different phenomenon altogether.

I'm not exactly clear what you are arguing for here: should people not be accountable for crimes they commit abroad? Should everyone adopt the same justice system that you believe in because it is objectively correct somehow?

Cultural imperialist much?

h2005

RecordStraight wrote: »

Miscarriage of justice. Different phenomenon altogether.

I'm not exactly clear what you are arguing for here: should people not be accountable for crimes they commit abroad? Should everyone adopt the same justice system that you believe in because it is objectively correct somehow?

Cultural imperialist much?

I'm a cultural imperialist because I don't believe in executing people? Whats the threshold crime for execution before you find it unjust?

RecordStraight

h2005 wrote: »

I'm a cultural imperialist because I don't believe in executing people? Whats the threshold crime for execution before you find it unjust?

I can answer that from the perspective of a liberal person who grew up in late 20th century Ireland.

Can I answer that question in an objective way for the ages? No, I don't believe I can.

But you can.

Ozymandius2011

I think only quiet diplomacy has a chance of working against such a hardline, nationalistic and large state.

Also we don't know whether he's innocent or not. The fact his trial has been deferred for the last 20 months makes it appear little more than revenge.

I suspect one reason the govt isn't taking it too seriously might be because they mightnt see him as Irish, because he was only naturalised not of Irish extraction.

h2005

RecordStraight wrote: »

I can answer that from the perspective of a liberal person who grew up in late 20th century Ireland.

Can I answer that question in an objective way for the ages? No, I don't believe I can.

But you can.

Yes I can.
What's your thoughts on this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi ?
Is pointing out that that is vile and barbaric just me being culturally imperialistic?

end of the road

RecordStraight wrote: »

The guilty people who commit crimes that carry the death sentence are volunteers - unless they have no free will?

no, they were forced to be butchered so a savage could prove a point to other savages and appease and get praise from more savages (otherwise known as supporters of the death penalty)

Pedro K

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

I suspect one reason the govt isn't taking it too seriously might be because they mightnt see him as Irish, because he was only naturalised not of Irish extraction.

Are they not taking it seriously? I would say they've gone above and beyond their call of duty, to be honest.

Morpheus

look the lads irish. full stop. he could burn the bible, the constitution and the flag, publically renounce his citizenship, but legally he would still be irish.

this isnt about his citizenship. its deeper.

questions need to be answered:
1. what was he doing out there in the first place?
2. does he support the muslim brotherhood and by extension forcible implementation of sharia law on a religiously and ethnically diverse population?
3. if yes , does this mean he does not recognise his home countrys democratic laws and government?

Once we have definitive answers to these questions, we can all make up opinions.

Calina

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

I suspect one reason the govt isn't taking it too seriously might be because they mightnt see him as Irish, because he was only naturalised not of Irish extraction.

I'm really not sure what you would consider taking it "too seriously" might feature given he has regular visits from the diplomatic team in Egypt and Charlie Flanagan raises the issues with his counterpart as well.

That aside, according to Amnesty International, he was born in the Coombe in 1999. If this is correct, then he is not "Only naturalised" but was entitled to citizenship purely by right of being born here at the time and did not need to be naturalised. Of course, if he was not born in Ireland, that would put a different focus on things regarding naturalisation or not. But it's irrelevant because in the context of matters, his case is being taken seriously and to be fair, his three sisters' situation in Egypt changed courtesy of the Irish authorities' support.

In other words, he is being strongly supported by the state, and he is apparently a citizen by right of birth and not by right of naturalisation.

The point which keeps getting forgotten is that he is also a citizen of Egypt by right of birth unless he has already written to request that it be removed. As he was demonstrating on political matters in Egypt, I suspect he did not do that.

So likely to be a dual national, with the complications that entails when you get into trouble in one of the two countries concerned. All those assertions that he is Irish need to take into consideration that he is Egyptian too.

RecordStraight

end of the road wrote: »

no, they were forced to be butchered so a savage could prove a point to other savages and appease and get praise from more savages (otherwise known as supporters of the death penalty)

So people who hold different cultural values are 'savages'.

19th Century Britain called, they want their values back.

KingBrian2

sid waddell wrote: »

Adultery is an offence that can be punishable by death in Saudi Arabia. I presume you're fine with that too.

No I don't, I wish we severed relations with Saudi Arabia. Plenty of other Arab states in the region far more deserving of our trading contacts.

skooterblue2

KingBrian2 wrote: »

No I don't, I wish we severed relations with Saudi Arabia. Plenty of other Arab states in the region far more deserving of our trading contacts.

Agh..... Ease up on Saudi Arabia .....they buy an awful lot of Prime Irish beef and butter and IT and are a makor trade link. This doesnt mean we have to adopt their moral system. Personally I feel Muslims are unsuited to society in Ireland and far different cultural values.

I am horrified at the thought of the Muslim Schools in Ireland. I think Religion should be thought at home and in the place of worship, not at the Governments expense. Also I have seen the mistake of Clerics being let into the Prison system in the UK

Morpheus

Generalising statement re muslims... i know plenty of them in my undustry that lead a normal rational life, they take a beer or at least socialise and dont all walk around dressed like ninjas or wearing bedsheets and beards. they arent all the same, yet you would let them spend their money here but youll be damned if they can live here? We dont have to accept religious schooling, thats up to government which means you and I but people should be allowed to come here and work, live, become irish, be born irish, so long as they dont try to force some strange (to us) ways of life they are used to living by.

I suggest to you that whomever they be coming to ireland, they must be willing to attempt to adapt, to accept our way of life as their own or at least to find a find a happy medium in our world of free speech and freedom of expression and within our particular laws. Truly we are a young nation and are only beginning to find our own way in the world, we Irish have much to offer the world and having a diverse population base is nothing to be scared of, it wont erode our irishness nor will it somehow "dilute our original gene pool" (thats one of the funniest things ive read) or like some think, that we will suddenly dissappear beneath a sea of foreign assylum seekers.

if people come here to live and then they find that they cannot wihtout eroding the core values of Irish society, then at that point, they should consider going to live in another place where they can happily practice, live by and live in an environment accepting of the laws and rules that they prefer to live by.

We DO need to step up some immigration laws we currently have and to also step up judicial treatment of all criminality in the state, but by and large I think that most people who come here, are hoping to improve their lot and are willing to work hard to get it, just like the rest of us freckled ginger pasty white people are... we plenty of homegrown dolts willing to sit on their fat ar$es and feed of the teets of an unsustainable socialist dream just as we have plenty of proud folks who work hard, barely scraping by and hardly earning more than the dole would give them in the first place.

There are bigger fish to fry, frankly this kid needs to be taken home, investigated and possibly charged if theres some irish law he has broken. Maybe the Dept of Foreign Affairs should send over a team taken from Gardas G2 and Army Intelligence and conduct an independent investigation in Egypt to see if what he supposedly actually did and find out if he has been mistreated in jail, if so, the Egyptian ambassador should be summoned to government.

skooterblue2

Wow I would love to meet some of these muslims....... you must have found som utopia of the the hidden Muslim community.
Come take a trip down here to Waterford City .... a city of Burkas and fundementalis. All you can see is day to day in 20 year we will have race riot s like in the UK. Go have a look at the East London Mosque. See all the Hastle and they hold up planning permission.

Their value system is totally askew to ours, on so many levels. Dress codes, Diet, consumption of Alcohol. womens Rights, Education, Sharia Law, I am not sure where to begin. We have nothing to be scared of? We have plenty to be scared of. Especially when they have infiltrated our prisons system army and police force. They are nothing like the Polish migrants that came and settled here.

I think a lot of people dont have a concept of how serious Treason/Supporting an uprising is. It is more serious in the States eyes of Murder, Rape and drug smuggling. They Egyptian government have the right to stamp this out hard and fast. Yes he is being held unfairly without a speedy trial but everyone is assuming that first world Civil right apply to every country in the world. If you are going to one of these countries in the world and you intend to buck the norm you must be prepared to accept the consequences. What would be the attitudes be if an Irish person smuggled a pound of bacon and keg of Guinness into the square in Terhan and started cooking bacon sandwiches and drinking beer?

Would you say he should be repatriated or would say he knew where he was going and what he was getting into? Once you go off the Reservation it is very hard to send help or make provisions, then when you bite the hands that feed you. Then you are asking for trouble.

As for sending a team from Army intelligence/G2 and the Guards ....... lets be serious!!! The boy was caught rotten and they are holding him for "crimes of his father". He knew well the situation when he was travelling and the lie of the land. This is their Egypt and if you dont like the laws of a country or civil rights .... best advice dont travel.

What surprises me is the Irish Government is investing more time in two years trying to Get him out than they spent in 14 years trying to get Brian Keenan out. This is guy is definiately more guilty than Brian Keenan ever was, well there is more evidence to convict him. You play with fire you get burned

Nodin

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Wow I would love to meet some of these muslims....... you must have found som utopia of the the hidden Muslim community.
Come take a trip down here to Waterford City .... a city of Burkas and fundementalis. All you can see is day to day in 20 year we will have race riot s like in the UK. Go have a look at the East London Mosque. See all the Hastle and they hold up planning permission.

..............

Yep, no raving xenophobia behind the attacks on this lad at all....

JupiterKid

So he was only born in 1999? That makes the boy (and yes, he still is just a boy) 16 at most. He was obviously very naive and easily radicalised. And this child is facing execution? Horrible. I feel sorry for his family.:(

ohnonotgmail

JupiterKid wrote: »

So he only born in 1999? That makes the boy (and yes, he still is just a boy) 16 at most. He was obviously very naive and easily radicalised. And this child is facing execution? Horrible. I feel sorry for his family.:(

easily radicalised indeed. by his own father. who stopped a deal that would allow his own son to return home free.

skooterblue2

JupiterKid wrote: »

So he was only born in 1999? That makes the boy (and yes, he still is just a boy) 16 at most. He was obviously very naive and easily radicalised. And this child is facing execution? Horrible. I feel sorry for his family.:(

a few things ..... he was 17 when it happened. That makes him a man in Egypt. Naive ???? and he was accepted for Engineering in UCD. When you pick up a gun the rules change dramatically

Calina

Calina wrote: »

That aside, according to Amnesty International, he was born in the Coombe in 1999. If this is correct, then he is not "Only naturalised" but was entitled to citizenship purely by right of being born here at the time and did not need to be naturalised.

Correction. 1995. However, still has citizenship by right of birth here. Changes removing automatic right to nationality based on birth in Ireland came in 2004.

Calina

skooterblue2 wrote: »

a few things ..... he was 17 when it happened. That makes him a man in Egypt. Naive ???? and he was accepted for Engineering in UCD. When you pick up a gun the rules change dramatically

They don't. The rules are the rules and usually include not picking up a gun.

Calina

JupiterKid wrote: »

So he was only born in 1999? That makes the boy (and yes, he still is just a boy) 16 at most. He was obviously very naive and easily radicalised. And this child is facing execution? Horrible. I feel sorry for his family.:(

He is now 20, as I understand it. Apologies for the confusion.

He has not been convicted and so I think it's rather premature to suggest that he is facing execution.

Nodin

Calina wrote: »

He is now 20, as I understand it. Apologies for the confusion.

He has not been convicted and so I think it's rather premature to suggest that he is facing execution.

...but not too premature for some to suggest he picked up a gun?

skooterblue2

Calina wrote: »

They don't. The rules are the rules and usually include not picking up a gun.

Once you pick up a gun you go from civilian to combatant ..... this makes you fair game for being shot. The Geneva convention is very grey about Mercenaries/Freedom fighters/Foreign brigades and soldiers of fortune who get funny ideas. This guy is very lucky he wasnt shot the first day and stupid that he put himself in that position

skooterblue2

Calina wrote: »

He has not been convicted and so I think it's rather premature to suggest that he is facing execution.

holding him for 10 years without Trial is much more fun for the military court than executing him. "Crimes of the Father". Egyotian government is under no obligation to play by the rules when dealing with the Muslim Brother hood

skooterblue2

Nodin wrote: »

...but not too premature for some to suggest he picked up a gun?

Doesnt look like he was in the souk looking for post cards before the riot started.

Nodin

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Once you pick up a gun you go from civilian to combatant ..... this makes you fair game for being shot. The Geneva convention is very grey about Mercenaries/Freedom fighters/Foreign brigades and soldiers of fortune who get funny ideas. This guy is very lucky he wasnt shot the first day and stupid that he put himself in that position

You've evidence that he did so?

Please post it, unless, of course, you are currently surrounded by the Waterford Branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. Wouldn't want you to come to harm, would we?

skooterblue2

Nodin wrote: »

You've evidence that he did so?

Please post it, unless, of course, you are currently surrounded by the Waterford Branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. Wouldn't want you to come to harm, would we?

ahhh Well I dont have it as it was all taken down off Youtube with the help of the Halawa family solicitor but the Egyptian security service seem to think they have enough.

At the end of the day all that really matters is what an Egyptian Judge thinks and he has probably being reminded who his father is and how much fun the prison guards are having with him.

As for the Muslim Brotherhood down here in the Deise, I think they couldnt organise a peeve up in a brewery.... see Jihad Jane down here in Waterford.