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direct debit rights

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  • 06-04-2014 5:31pm
    #1
    nino1
    Registered Users Posts: 829 ✭✭✭


    I joined a gym and cancelled today but the paymenty came out 2 days ago and I have to give 30 days notice so next months payments will also come out.

    Do the new SEPA rules give me any extra rights to immediately cancel that I didn't have before or is the only difference the right to cancel within the first 8 weeks?

    Thanks


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    #2
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #3
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    What does your contract say?. If you signed up for a defined term, you owe that amount regardless if you cancelled before the term ends. Take responsibility for your action in agreeing to the term.


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    #4
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    The issue should be when you informed the supplier of your wishing to cancel the membership not what date you cancelled the DD. Notice is from when you tell them and not anything to do with the DD payment dates.


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    #5
    nino1
    Registered Users Posts: 829 ✭✭✭nino1


    I joined initially a few months ago and it was not a year contract but month by month.
    I have to give 30 days notice.

    If I cancel payment from my end the gym could just take the money out anyways.

    Does the new sepa rules prevent them from doing that?


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    #6
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #7
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    nino1 wrote: »
    I joined initially a few months ago and it was not a year contract but month by month.
    I have to give 30 days notice.

    If I cancel payment from my end the gym could just take the money out anyways.

    So you know and agreed to give 30 days notice? You cancelled two days after the last payment and 28 days before the next, why is this an issue for you? The gym has a right to collect the DD's as per the T&Cs you agreed to.

    Cancelling a Direct Debit Instruction does not in any way alter an agreement you have in place with the Originator (gym), and does not in any way impact on any liability you may have incurred for goods and/or services received


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    #8
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    You keep ignoring your contract to give 30 days notice.


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    #9
    RangeR
    Registered Users Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    davo10 wrote: »
    So you know and agreed to give 30 days notice? You cancelled two days after the last payment and 28 days before the next, why is this an issue for you? The gym has a right to collect the DD's as per the T&Cs you agreed to.

    The Gym has a right to the payment. They do not have a right to take it via Direct Debit.


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    #10
    bren2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,770 ✭✭✭bren2001


    RangeR wrote: »
    The Gym has a right to the payment. They do not have a right to take it via Direct Debit.

    The OP agreed to pay their membership via DD. They cancelled their membership but have given no new instructions on how the last payment should be made. The GYM has the right to take the money via DD. If the OP does not want the money taken out of her account via DD they should a. inform the gym of an alternative payment method b. tell the bank not to pay the money out (but an alternative method would still have to be arranged). They still have the right to use the gym until the end of the month as well.


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    #11
    RangeR
    Registered Users Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    bren2001 wrote: »
    The OP agreed to pay their membership via DD. They cancelled their membership but have given no new instructions on how the last payment should be made. The GYM has the right to take the money via DD. If the OP does not want the money taken out of her account via DD they should a. inform the gym of an alternative payment method b. tell the bank not to pay the money out (but an alternative method would still have to be arranged). They still have the right to use the gym until the end of the month as well.

    DD is just a payment mechanism. As I sais, the gym has a contractual right to a payment. They have NO right to take money out of a person's account if permission has been taken away.

    Again, the debt is still a reality. I'm only questioning the right of a company to access an bank account without permission.

    We can, of course, agree to disagree. I consider myself an export in the old Direct Debit Scheme but not in contract law.


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    #12
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    bren2001 wrote: »
    The OP agreed to pay their membership via DD. They cancelled their membership but have given no new instructions on how the last payment should be made. The GYM has the right to take the money via DD. If the OP does not want the money taken out of her account via DD they should a. inform the gym of an alternative payment method b. tell the bank not to pay the money out (but an alternative method would still have to be arranged). They still have the right to use the gym until the end of the month as well.

    The direct debit is not permission for any company to take from your account, it is more like permission to the bank to pay money out when it is requested and once you instruct the bank not to pay they MUST comply with your instruction.


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    #13
    bren2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,770 ✭✭✭bren2001


    RangeR wrote: »
    DD is just a payment mechanism. As I sais, the gym has a contractual right to a payment. They have NO right to take money out of a person's account if permission has been taken away.

    Again, the debt is still a reality. I'm only questioning the right of a company to access an bank account without permission.

    We can, of course, agree to disagree. I consider myself an export in the old Direct Debit Scheme but not in contract law.
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    The direct debit is not permission for any company to take from your account, it is more like permission to the bank to pay money out when it is requested and once you instruct the bank not to pay they MUST comply with your instruction.

    I am saying the exact same thing as both of ye. If the OP informs the bank or the gym not to give/take payment via DD, the gym has no right to use the DD. However, the debt will still stand and an alternative method of payment will have to be agreed. If an alternative method is not arranged, the gym can take legal action.
    bren2001 wrote:
    a. inform the gym of an alternative payment method
    b. tell the bank not to pay the money out (but an alternative method would still have to be arranged).


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    #14
    RangeR
    Registered Users Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    bren2001 wrote: »
    I am saying the exact same thing as both of ye. If the OP informs the bank or the gym not to give/take payment via DD, the gym has no right to use the DD. However, the debt will still stand and an alternative method of payment will have to be agreed. If an alternative method is not arranged, the gym can take legal action.

    Except that I don't agree with this statement. I probably should have made that clear in my earlier post. OP has withdrawn right. Op doesn't need to inform the Gym, although it's common courtesy.
    bren2001 wrote: »
    The GYM has the right to take the money via DD.


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    #15
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    RangeR wrote: »
    Except that I don't agree with this statement. I probably should have made that clear in my earlier post. OP has withdrawn right. Op doesn't need to inform the Gym, although it's common courtesy.

    Ah, come on. OP can cancel dd but he still owes subscription up until the agreed 30 day notice period has elapsed. Read the second paragraph of my second post, it is copy and pasted from the SEPA information page, here it is again:

    Cancelling a Direct Debit Instruction does not in any way alter an agreement you have in place with the Originator, and does not in any way impact on any liability you may have incurred for goods and/or services received

    This thread is not about the OP wanting to change the method of payment, it is about him not wanting to pay as per the terms of the agreement with the gym.


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    #16
    bren2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,770 ✭✭✭bren2001


    RangeR wrote: »
    Except that I don't agree with this statement. I probably should have made that clear in my earlier post. OP has withdrawn right. Op doesn't need to inform the Gym, although it's common courtesy.
    davo10 wrote: »
    Ah, come on. OP can cancel dd but he still owes subscription up until the agreed 30 day notice period has elapsed. Read the second paragraph of my second post, it is copy and pasted from the SEPA information page, here it is again:

    Cancelling a Direct Debit Instruction does not in any way alter an agreement you have in place with the Originator, and does not in any way impact on any liability you may have incurred for goods and/or services received

    This thread is not about the OP wanting to change the method of payment, it is about him not wanting to pay as per the terms of the agreement with the gym.

    Everybody is in agreement of what the case is. Just to clarify, the gym obviously has no "right" to take the money via DD if the bank is instructed not to give it.

    Everybody agrees if the OP wants to stop the money coming out of their account they must inform the bank or the gym not to give/take the money. HOWEVER, the gym is entitled to be paid at the end of the month and an alternative method of payment must be arranged e.g. cash, cheque etc.

    The OP, however, seems to want to stop the DD and not pay for the membership at the end of the month. They are looking to see if they are protected under SEPA for this. No, they are not protected under the SEPA rules. The contract they signed stated they must give 30 days notice of cancellation. The 30 days has been given BUT runs into the next month meaning one more month membership must be paid. Otherwise, they will be breaching their contract.


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    #17
    CaliforniaDream
    Registered Users Posts: 813 ✭✭✭CaliforniaDream


    If you have the option to give 30 days notice any time, would the next payment be pro-rated? I'd presume you'd owe them for two days worth of service not a full month.
    Have you clarified anything with the gym?


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    #18
    bren2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,770 ✭✭✭bren2001


    CaliforniaDream wrote: »
    If you have the option to give 30 days notice any time, would the next payment be pro-rated? I'd presume you'd owe them for two days worth of service not a full month.
    Have you clarified anything with the gym?

    The OP must pay for the full month. They can still use the gym for the remaining 28 days, if they choose not to that is up to them. The cancellation does not come into effect until the end of period paid for.


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    #19
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    bren2001 wrote: »
    The OP, however, seems to want to stop the DD and not pay for the membership at the end of the month. They are looking to see if they are protected under SEPA for this. No, they are not protected under the SEPA rules. The contract they signed stated they must give 30 days notice of cancellation. The 30 days has been given BUT runs into the next month meaning one more month membership must be paid. Otherwise, they will be breaching their contract.

    Yes they are protected!

    When the op tells their bank to stop the direct debit they MUST comply and must not pay out to the gym again.

    It is then up to the GYM to follow up and obtain payment from the op in some other way.

    The bank has no part to play in this, they can not insist on any proof from the op that the bill will be paid or that the gym have been notified of the direct debit being cancelled!


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    #20
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Yes they are protected!

    When the op tells their bank to stop the direct debit they MUST comply and must not pay out to the gym again.

    It is then up to the GYM to follow up and obtain payment from the op in some other way.

    The bank has no part to play in this, they can not insist on any proof from the op that the bill will be paid or that the gym have been notified of the direct debit being cancelled!

    For once I agree with you Foggy, the gym has no leverage on the OP nor his bank once the dd is cancelled. But as stated, the bigger picture is the OP doesn't want to pay for the notice period he agreed to provide when ending the service contract. He still owes for this period.


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    #21
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Yes they are protected!

    That's a bit of selective answering.
    The bit in bold below is a vital part of what you were replying too. SEPA doesn't allow you to just stop paying your bills you owe. It allows you to stop paying them by DD but it doesn't remove the debt.
    bren2001 wrote: »

    The OP, however, seems to want to stop the DD and not pay for the membership at the end of the month. They are looking to see if they are protected under SEPA for this. No, they are not protected under the SEPA rules..

    Its fairly clear the OP is trying to use SEPA to make a debt they owe go away rather than just not pay it by DD.


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    #22
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    That's a bit of selective answering.
    The bit in bold below is a vital part of what you were replying too. SEPA doesn't allow you to just stop paying your bills you owe. It allows you to stop paying them by DD but it doesn't remove the debt.


    Its fairly clear the OP is trying to use SEPA to make a debt they owe go away rather than just not pay it by DD.

    Sepa has nothing to do with the op's or any other debt, they just facilitate payments. Of course the debt remains if the op stops the bank paying out the debit but it is the company's business then to pursue payment by issuing an invoice or statement noticing the op that the debt remains.


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    #23
    nino1
    Registered Users Posts: 829 ✭✭✭nino1


    I am going to use SEPA to stop them taking the monthly paying out by direct debit.
    Although I will be breaking my contract by not paying the last month I'm sure it won't bankrupt them!


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    #24
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,507 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    nino1 wrote: »
    I am going to use SEPA to stop them taking the monthly paying out by direct debit.
    Although I will be breaking my contract by not paying the last month I'm sure it won't bankrupt them!

    A little bit of theft never bankrupt anyone alright.


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    #25
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    nino1 wrote: »
    I am going to use SEPA to stop them taking the monthly paying out by direct debit.
    Although I will be breaking my contract by not paying the last month I'm sure it won't bankrupt them!

    Your choice but immoral in my opinion and grossly unfair to not pay a debt to any business.


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    #26
    daheff
    Registered Users Posts: 5,866 ✭✭✭daheff


    nino1 wrote: »
    I am going to use SEPA to stop them taking the monthly paying out by direct debit.
    Although I will be breaking my contract by not paying the last month I'm sure it won't bankrupt them!


    Under SEPA rules CORE (all that is currently available in Ireland) DDs can be be rejected by the debtor up to 8 weeks afterwards with no questions asked (by your bank), and up to 13 months in the case of fraud.

    In this case you can have your bank refund you the direct debit when it gets taken by the gym, but its still going to be owed to the gym. And you should pay it as you agreed to a contract that said you would.

    If you start rejecting DDs like this it will affect your credit rating and make life harder for you if you ever want a loan.

    Do the right thing...pay the last month (or prorata'd amount). Go on...you know you want to.


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    #27
    RangeR
    Registered Users Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    daheff wrote: »
    If you start rejecting DDs like this it will affect your credit rating and make life harder for you if you ever want a loan.

    Do you have a reference for that?


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    #28
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,507 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    RangeR wrote: »
    Do you have a reference for that?

    We don't have a credit rating in Ireland but legally stopping direct debits would not affect your credit rating in the UK. Not making payments on a contract would though.


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    #29
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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