Brock vs Undertaker WM30 Discussion *WM30 Spoilers*

Qs

Isn't Michael Cole undefeated at Mania? Cole vs Lesnar for next years ME.

deano546

AJ is 1-0 as well, Triple Threat?

Jester252

The Undertaker realising that Marks body is too old will now transfer his soul and power to Brock, with Heyman becoming a new Bearer.

rovert

D.Q

could we change the thread title please? makes it too obvious that there was an outcome of a match last night.

Moneymaker

I've had time to process this now.

The more I think about it, the more I think it was the right thing to do.

Firstly, the match was a dud tbh. Slow paced, Taker looked old and broken down.

It was CLEARLY his choice to end the streak and to put over a guy he respects the hell out of.

Brock is instantly the most formidable presence in WWE again.

And it was one of the biggest swerves ever. NO ONE saw it coming.

And I have so much respect for Taker, I respect his decision to put Brock over and(presumably) retire.

Thanks for everything Deadman. It was one hell of a career.

SlickRic

the more I watch the last 2 minutes, the more amazing it is.

Lesnar got his aura back in one match, undoubtedly, and they need to milk it for all it's worth.

how?

build it up to Bryan/Lesnar at next year's Wrestlemania. Lesnar ploughs through whoever he ploughs through until then, where he gets his shot at the title, when Bryan has it (Bryan doesn't need the title for the year, but he should have it come Wrestlemania season).

he then beats Lesnar in a megamatch.

you could even use Lesnar to get Reigns over if that's what you want to do.

Moneymaker

How WWE use this and book Lesnar is critical too.

I would hope he sticks around(maybe he agreed to a contract extension or become fulltime?) and has the respect Undertaker clearly has for him and they milk this for all its worth.

If not, then it's one of the biggest wasted opportunities in PW history. And one that fans will be very sour about.

WM31 is going to be very surreal with no streak match.

It had to end as it was a spectre that was dominating the show every year.

JP Liz V1

I am annoyed his streak has ended (don't matter who ended it), as it is part of his legacy, a big part tbh, he should have retired with the streak unbroken

I'm happy it's over to be honest. The storylines for the streak have bored the arse off me the last few years.

krudler

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

I am annoyed his streak has ended (don't matter who ended it), as it is part of his legacy, a big part tbh, he should have retired with the streak unbroken

Nah it made more sense to break it, if Taker was all about the business, which he's shown he clearly is, then going out undefeated doesn't help the business. The streak is still the streak and it'll never be matched, that's his legacy.

And in fairness it's not a real streak *ducks* :pac:

CSF

SlickRic wrote: »

the more I watch the last 2 minutes, the more amazing it is.

Lesnar got his aura back in one match, undoubtedly, and they need to milk it for all it's worth.

how?

build it up to Bryan/Lesnar at next year's Wrestlemania. Lesnar ploughs through whoever he ploughs through until then, where he gets his shot at the title, when Bryan has it (Bryan doesn't need the title for the year, but he should have it come Wrestlemania season).

he then beats Lesnar in a megamatch.

you could even use Lesnar to get Reigns over if that's what you want to do.

Bryan beating Lesnar veers too far outside the realms of believability. Lesnar should be the one who eventually takes Bryan's title. The 2 should be kept apart for as long as possible for that reason. Lesnar shouldn't be losing clean in the big matches, until there is someone more Lesnar than Lesnar, in the same way Undertaker didn't lose clean to guys it made him look weak to lose against. That is the only way to book monsters without them turning out like Big Show or Kane.

Mr.Nice Guy

I'm surprised people are defending the decision.

Are we supposed to forget that Lesnar has already walked out on the company in the past? Or that Brock has already lost in WWE not just to John Cena but also to Triple H?

The idea that this restores Lesnar's aura is wishful thinking imo. We have to wait and see how the crowd reacts to him on Raw (if he shows up) but I doubt we'll see a reaction akin to the one Orton got the night after he beat Foley at Backlash. That's another thing to bear in mind as well - how many times is Brock going to be around? Will he be given a title run and go on the road to defend it?

Lesnar always exudes a scary aura anyway and I see no reason to give him this win. If someone had to break the streak then it should have been someone like Reigns or Wyatt who have plenty more years in the tank. Better them than a guy who will probably not have more than ten matches before he heads off into the sunset.

I think they threw away a lot of money on this one. I'd rate it marginally above the decision to job out Goldberg's streak to Nash.

CSF

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I'm surprised people are defending the decision.

Are we supposed to forget that Lesnar has already walked out on the company in the past? Or that Brock has already lost in WWE not just to John Cena but also to Triple H?

The idea that this restores Lesnar's aura is wishful thinking imo. We have to wait and see how the crowd reacts to him on Raw (if he shows up) but I doubt we'll see a reaction akin to the one Orton got the night after he beat Foley at Backlash. That's another thing to bear in mind as well - how many times is Brock going to be around? Will he be given a title run and go on the road to defend it?

Lesnar always exudes a scary aura anyway and I see no reason to give him this win. If someone had to break the streak then it should have been someone like Reigns or Wyatt who have plenty more years in the tank. Better them than a guy who will probably not have more than ten matches before he heads off into the sunset.

I think they threw away a lot of money on this one. I'd rate it marginally above the decision to job out Goldberg's streak to Nash.

This notion that these things should go to an up and comer is silly IMO. What's the point in building up up and comers if when you get to where you want them, you expect them to constantly create other up and comers. Invincible Lesnar = lots of hugely anticipated matches. If a Reigns or a Cesaro want to make it big, they need to do that on their own bat, over time and their win over a Lesnar or an Undertaker can be the passing of the torch. Neither Reigns or Cesaro has done enough to get the torch. They will build their own future and earn their Wrestlemania moment. Not just giving it to them in the hope it gets them over.

DM_7

Cena is the only full time wrestler that could have taken the streak this year.

None of the guys on the way up were ready this year. I wanted Reigns to have a shot this year but not win. Far too early.

I think they would be terrified of the reaction to Cena winning. The boos are loud enough as it is.

Mr.Nice Guy

CSF wrote: »

This notion that these things should go to an up and comer is silly IMO. What's the point in building up up and comers if when you get to where you want them, you expect them to constantly create other up and comers. Invincible Lesnar = lots of hugely anticipated matches. If a Reigns or a Cesaro want to make it big, they need to do that on their own bat, over time and their win over a Lesnar or an Undertaker can be the passing of the torch. Neither Reigns or Cesaro has done enough to get the torch. They will build their own future and earn their Wrestlemania moment. Not just giving it to them in the hope it gets them over.

I agree with you that an up and comer should make it on their own bat. I said that myself a few weeks ago when I explained why I thought the streak shouldn't lose. My argument boiled down to two things: 1) if you are really hot on a big superstar then why can't he make it big on his own anyway? and 2) an established star doesn't need the rub if they are already a star.

I think the benefit of this is going to be minimal which is my main gripe. You referred to an invincible Lesnar but that's the thing. He's not. They had Cena beat him and they had HHH beat him at last year's Wrestlemania.

So the audience knows he's not invincible. Rather than make Lesnar look strong, if anything it actually showed up Taker as a guy who just couldn't hack it anymore. Rather than raise Brock's stock significantly, I think they actually damaged Taker's. Time will tell and I'll happily eat my words if I'm wrong but I think this was a great mistake.

If you are going to take away one of Mania's traditional USPs then you better have faith in the guy you give the streak away to, and to give it away to a guy who already walked out on the company in the past, and who refuses to work full-time, just feels dumb. It feels like it was done for shock value.

Let's remember Taker actually put over Lesnar in that Hell In A Cell match in '02 when the idea going in was that this was Taker's yard. A year and a half later and Lesnar had left in a huff. They will kick themselves if something similar happens.

Moneymaker

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I agree with you that an up and comer should make it on their own bat. I said that myself a few weeks ago when I explained why I thought the streak shouldn't lose. My argument boiled down to two things: 1) if you are really hot on a big superstar then why can't he make it big on his own anyway? and 2) an established star doesn't need the rub if they are already a star.

I think the benefit of this is going to be minimal which is my main gripe. You referred to an invincible Lesnar but that's the thing. He's not. They had Cena beat him and they had HHH beat him at last year's Wrestlemania.

So the audience knows he's not invincible. Rather than make Lesnar look strong, if anything it actually showed up Taker as a guy who just couldn't hack it anymore. Rather than raise Brock's stock significantly, I think they actually damaged Taker's. Time will tell and I'll happily eat my words if I'm wrong but I think this was a great mistake.

If you are going to take away one of Mania's traditional USPs then you better have faith in the guy you give the streak away to, and to give it away to a guy who already walked out on the company in the past, and who refuses to work full-time, just feels dumb. It feels like it was done for shock value.

Let's remember Taker actually put over Lesnar in that Hell In A Cell match in '02 when the idea going in was that this was Taker's yard. A year and a half later and Lesnar had left in a huff. They will kick themselves if something similar happens.

I think this is the key statement in the entire debate really.

They'll either be vindicated or vilified, depending on how they book this and what Lesnar decides to do.

kronsington

Like nearly everyone I'm genuinely surprised the Streak is over. Taker looks very old now and his ability to really deliver a great match is now well behind him. Where does lesnar go from here? Hopefully they book him as the unstoppable monster heel that he is and let him wreak havoc on anyone and everyone. I think he might disappear for a while though. Still reckon they'll try do the Rock/Brock match at a future Mania, as was the original plan for this year's mania.

CSF

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I agree with you that an up and comer should make it on their own bat. I said that myself a few weeks ago when I explained why I thought the streak shouldn't lose. My argument boiled down to two things: 1) if you are really hot on a big superstar then why can't he make it big on his own anyway? and 2) an established star doesn't need the rub if they are already a star.

I think the benefit of this is going to be minimal which is my main gripe. You referred to an invincible Lesnar but that's the thing. He's not. They had Cena beat him and they had HHH beat him at last year's Wrestlemania.

So the audience knows he's not invincible. Rather than make Lesnar look strong, if anything it actually showed up Taker as a guy who just couldn't hack it anymore. Rather than raise Brock's stock significantly, I think they actually damaged Taker's. Time will tell and I'll happily eat my words if I'm wrong but I think this was a great mistake.

If you are going to take away one of Mania's traditional USPs then you better have faith in the guy you give the streak away to, and to give it away to a guy who already walked out on the company in the past, and who refuses to work full-time, just feels dumb. It feels like it was done for shock value.

Let's remember Taker actually put over Lesnar in that Hell In A Cell match in '02 when the idea going in was that this was Taker's yard. A year and a half later and Lesnar had left in a huff. They will kick themselves if something similar happens.

Lesnar can't win every match. That would be boring. Cena and HHH were both threatening enough to take those wins. Lesnar's aura of invincibility doesn't wain unless you start having him lose to small guys that he would crush in reality or to big guys who aren't billed as a legitimate threat.

spiritcrusher

Is that Lesnar guy on the right?? Even he can't believe it! :pac:

CSF

kronsington wrote: »

Like nearly everyone I'm genuinely surprised the Streak is over. Taker looks very old now and his ability to really deliver a great match is now well behind him. Where does lesnar go from here? Hopefully they book him as the unstoppable monster heel that he is and let him wreak havoc on anyone and everyone. I think he might disappear for a while though. Still reckon they'll try do the Rock/Brock match at a future Mania, as was the original plan for this year's mania.

From a PPV perspective that match sounds great, but the reality wouldn't be. Lesnar v Bryan is probably the right match, but it shouldn't end the way people want.

Necro

I think you're both right. Time will tell. The one thing in the back of my mind is that they must have come to another multi-year, multi-date deal with Lesnar. Maybe even a bigger schedule. I know Vince does things for the 'NOW' rather than the 'FUTURE' but it's plain as day there's huge plans for Lesnar going forward. I'm terribly torn as I always thought for years that Undertaker deserved to retire undefeated at Wrestlemania. But as the streak has grown I've gotten fed up of it. The back to back HHH matches, while entertaining were dragging the arse out of it. Even Punk's match last year had terrible build - a Fatal 4 Way to face Taker at Mania? What lazy booking.
I think I'm happy it's over. But NOTHING has ever come close to the shock over the result last night.

CSF

Necrominus wrote: »

I think you're both right. Time will tell. The one thing in the back of my mind is that they must have come to another multi-year, multi-date deal with Lesnar. Maybe even a bigger schedule. I know Vince does things for the 'NOW' rather than the 'FUTURE' but it's plain as day there's huge plans for Lesnar going forward. I'm terribly torn as I always thought for years that Undertaker deserved to retire undefeated at Wrestlemania. But as the streak has grown I've gotten fed up of it. The back to back HHH matches, while entertaining were dragging the arse out of it. Even Punk's match last year had terrible build - a Fatal 4 Way to face Taker at Mania? What lazy booking.
I think I'm happy it's over. But NOTHING has ever come close to the shock over the result last night.

If Undertaker had retired with the streak, us cynical internet fans would remember him much less fondly.

Necro

CSF wrote: »

If Undertaker had retired with the streak, us cynical internet fans would remember him much less fondly.

Most definitely. When I wanted him to retire with it, he was still working a full time schedule and putting over others the entire year. Orton, Edge, Batista... The resulting loss at Mania didn't mean so much as he was putting them over the next few months. But now he's moved on to the one performance a year - it had to end didn't it? Lesnar may have not been the right guy. The match may not have been amazing. But it had to end.

Rjd2

CSF

Necrominus wrote: »

Most definitely. When I wanted him to retire with it, he was still working a full time schedule and putting over others the entire year. Orton, Edge, Batista... The resulting loss at Mania didn't mean so much as he was putting them over the next few months. But now he's moved on to the one performance a year - it had to end didn't it? Lesnar may have not been the right guy. The match may not have been amazing. But it had to end.

Yeah, I think the only thing that should be open to question were the time and the man. IMO both were right, and said as much long before the match was booked.

TheNumpty

That moment of the streak ending was this generation's Montreal. Sure the actual match could have been better but since the reports of Taker's alleged concussion and neck issues, its hardly surprising the pace of the match. I watched it back and i like it. Not a classic but not a trainwreck either. If this serves to ensure Taker to legit retire on Raw tonight then i'd be happy. He couldn't go on forever and he's stayed old school to the end. Always put someone over on the way out.

kronsington

I never though it would end. It's a genuine surprise. I think 20-0 would have been the time to bow out. I don't really see the point in ending it as it does take the gloss off the whole thing and Lesnar didn't need the win really. His aura is natural and with some smart booking he could and can still be a force of nature but didn't need he Streak win for that. I'll be surprised if Taker carries on now. Obviously he's a shoe in for the HOF and would he remain in kayfabe for a farewell speech if any? I remember watching his debut at Survivor Series 1990!

It's fascinating to see how they move forward now. I'd have Brock lurking in the background now. Plant the seeds for him chasing after Bryan. Build it slowly. I'd fancy him to show up tonight and disappear till Summer sometime for another Summerslam showdown with someone.

Mick Murdock

If Lesnar is disappearing for months on end I guess Heyman will be recruiting more guys and taking credit for breaking the streak.

CSF

I don't understand when people give out about Lesnar only doing 4 or 5 PPVs a year. Makes the matches even more special and isn't the same as the Mania one timers either.

lebowskilite

I felt a deep void in the pit of my stomach when this match ended - and for that alone, it was brilliant. Sometimes I think we care too much about whether something was done right and who got the push, etc. We think we're smart to the business and could write it better, etc. Like prospective voters who are more interested in opinion polls than political policies, we sometime forget that we are the target audience - our smarts don't stop us from being targeted.

The bottom line is that was an epic result. Would I have written it? Probably not, but my stomach was full of beer and nachos by the time that match was over and it felt empty as hell for hours after. Why? Because I was devastated.

gnfnrhead

The Triple H loss was bullshit due to how strong Triple H was made to look, but I cant see any fault with the Cena loss. Lesnar completely destroyed him for 95% of the match, but got too cocky and Cena stunned him. That happens in a lot of sports. In two years only once has Lesnar come out looking bad. Every other time he comes out, at worst, looking good. I can see the issue with him being a part timer but that's it. Otherwise he was a great choice to end it. One of the best booked guys in the company.

On another note, Roman Reigns is now 2-0 at Wrestlemania. They obviously plan on pushing him hard so I think he will take the streak job in future years barring a bad injury of some sort.

Penn

Anyone else see XPac's Twitter feed about Taker?

(Read from bottom to top)

Sean Waltman @TheRealXPac • 2h
No one got mad at me, I just feel the need to apologize.

Sean Waltman @TheRealXPac • 2h
It was a knee jerk reaction & I shouldn't have tweeted my opinion without knowing the facts. I'm not at liberty to comment further

Sean Waltman @TheRealXPac • 2h
My thoughts go out to Taker, I realize what happened now and I apologize for publicly questioning the finish. That's all I'm going to say.

Sean Waltman @TheRealXPac • 17h
With all due respect, that should have been saved for a Roman Reigns or someone else to build towards the future

CSF

gnfnrhead wrote: »

The Triple H loss was bullshit due to how strong Triple H was made to look, but I cant see any fault with the Cena loss. Lesnar completely destroyed him for 95% of the match, but got too cocky and Cena stunned him. That happens in a lot of sports. In two years only once has Lesnar come out looking bad. Every other time he comes out, at worst, looking good. I can see the issue with him being a part timer but that's it. Otherwise he was a great choice to end it. One of the best booked guys in the company.

On another note, Roman Reigns is now 2-0 at Wrestlemania. They obviously plan on pushing him hard so I think he will take the streak job in future years barring a bad injury of some sort.

I definitely agree to an extent, but at the same time HHH is supposed to be strong. I don't like him, not mad on alot of his matches. But he is supposed to be a tough guy, one who will go to any lengths. But yeah, I do agree to an extent. HHH shouldn't be dominating Lesnar at all.

CSF

Would love to see a Shield v Lesnar angle actually. I think that is a suitable time to have Lesnar lose without losing what we've spent the last couple of these page discussing.

gerrybbadd

Penn wrote: »

Anyone else see XPac's Twitter feed about Taker?

(Read from bottom to top)

Sean Waltman @TheRealXPac • 2h
No one got mad at me, I just feel the need to apologize.

Sean Waltman @TheRealXPac • 2h
It was a knee jerk reaction & I shouldn't have tweeted my opinion without knowing the facts. I'm not at liberty to comment further

Sean Waltman @TheRealXPac • 2h
My thoughts go out to Taker, I realize what happened now and I apologize for publicly questioning the finish. That's all I'm going to say.

Sean Waltman @TheRealXPac • 17h
With all due respect, that should have been saved for a Roman Reigns or someone else to build towards the future

Could he be on about the concussion / neck injury?

Ape Lincoln

Penn wrote: »

Anyone else see XPac's Twitter feed about Taker?

(Read from bottom to top)

I think we can definitely say that he was out of the loop and not clued in on the finish.

In other TwitterTaker notes, The Undertaker, R.I.P and Peaches Geldof are all trending

rovert

gerrybbadd wrote: »

Could he be on about the concussion / neck injury?

Undertaker was hurt for sure,

Vince McMahon LEFT THE WRESTLEMANIA BOARDCAST and went with Taker in an ambulance according to PWTorch.

Those who knew about the finish was kept very small. Announcers weren't told.

cena

Anyone else agree that cena should of been the one to break the streak. He is wwe top guy and the hardest worker they.
Cena would deserve it by no.

Lesnar a part timer coming in breaking the streak is madness

Donegal Dan

cena wrote: »

Anyone else agree that cena should of been the one to break the streak. He is wwe top guy and the hardest worker they.
Cena would deserve it by no.

Lesnar a part timer coming in breaking the streak is madness

Whoever broke the Streak was going to be seen as the number one heel in the company for some time to come. Cena is certainly not that guy.

gnfnrhead

Donegal Dan wrote: »

Whoever broke the Streak was going to be seen as the number one heel in the company for some time to come. Cena is certainly not that guy.

You break the streak and you're a heel until you retire. That's why it was Lesnar and not someone like Cesaro or Reigns or even Cena.

cena

gnfnrhead wrote: »

You break the streak and you're a heel until you retire. That's why it was Lesnar and not someone like Cesaro or Reigns or even Cena.

Has lesnar never been a babyface?

Professey Chin

cena wrote: »

Has lesnar never been a babyface?

He has been but hes much better as a monster heel. This makes him the biggest one he can be

gnfnrhead

cena wrote: »

Has lesnar never been a babyface?

Briefly but he is far better as a heel. At this stage of his career he will never be a babyface again. You cant say the same for Reigns, Cesaro or pretty much anyone else on the roster.

cena

Professey Chin wrote: »

He has been but hes much better as a monster heel. This makes him the biggest one he can be

I just don't remember him been babyface.

gnfnrhead

cena wrote: »

I just don't remember him been babyface.

He was babyface for the Angle Wrestlemania match. Since about November as best I can recall. Not sure when he changed back.

B.A._Baracus

Interesting tweets from Xpac there. Could The Undertakers physical condition (before his match last night) be really bad / he is not able to perform anymore?

If that was the case it would make alot of sense as to why Lensar won. At this point it's safe to say that The Undertaker wanted his streak broken (probably the eventual plan for years now) Sure if not last night, whenever. But if The Undertaker cannot perform anymore... then it does make sense for Lensar to be the man. He is credible and can be shaped once again in to that unstoppable force in which someone else could be made by beating him down the line.

Professional Griefer

I think that you're thinking about it too much.

Degag

I think word probably got out somehow alright although in saying that, it wouldn't take a lot of money to swing the prices as its only a novelty market.

If Paddy Power for example saw a few hundred euro come in for Brock, they'd be pretty quick to reduce the odds.

Diabhal Beag

Honestly think it was worth it just for that moment. No need to pin the blame on anybody. Was an amazing moment and one of the rare genuine shockers you'll ever see.