Brock vs Undertaker WM30 Discussion *WM30 Spoilers*

BohsJohnny

He doesn't hesitate but it looks like he's calling it only as a two here to the timekeeper

Hulk Hands

CSF wrote: »

I've never seen a max on these kind of markets, granted I've never thrown anything more than 2 euro on them either.

Bookies don't decide max stake depending on the size however, they decide on the max payout. That 35k bet was only paying out 500 quid or so. In contrast, someone having 25 quid on Lesnar at 20s would pay out the same, and I'm sure nobody would be shocked if someone got that on. I'm usually very sceptical about bookies taking big bets on low grade crap or novelties, but it's not far fetched to say that one took this bet

Ape Lincoln

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Exactly what I saw.
I think people are just looking into this finish too much.

I think it was John Pollock from Live Audio Wrestling that said it could go down as the most shocking finish since Survivor Series 97. He could be right. I didn't buy into the theories about the finish bring improved or a botch/whatever else but evidently it's a hot talking point and I wouldn't he surprised if myths about it endure over time.

The theories serve as a better talking point than the match since it sucked and was likely to suck with or without Taker's concussion.

Ape Lincoln

@Bohs, the ref mouths 'ring the bell' after counting three. Again, no hesitation. When something goes wrong referees do not act that smoothly. Nor a lot of wrestlers for that matter.

Dep!

A very simple non conspiracy theory answer thats right on front of your faces here lads (and one that keeps with the "ref didnt know" story) ....

Before match: Ref is told Taker to win
In the ring and during - for example - Taker's entrance: Ref is told in his earpiece by Vince "Brock to win on third F5. Make sure you count to three!"

There is no way he'd have been able to run the match otherwise. Remember, the ref in most matches is like a film's director. He helps it ebb and flow and can change its pace etc if he's told to from Vince from the Gorilla position.

Ape Lincoln

The bigger surprise besides whether or not the ref knew is that the Observer reported it was Vince McMahon's idea for Undertaker to put Lesnar over.

Corholio

Another supposed story from the match is that Lesnar apparently whispered 'Thank You' into Undertaker's ear some time not long after the three count for granting him the honour of ending the streak.

rovert

Some writers have written that athletes go through two deaths. The first the day that they retire:


Poor Taker.

Ape Lincoln

I've legit lost count at the amount of times he died.

irish_stevo815

Slightly off topic but who was the guy from FCW who was supposed to face Taker at Mania a few years ago? There was some promo videos of him saying he was gonna end the streak

rovert

irish_stevo815 wrote: »

Slightly off topic but who was the guy from FCW who was supposed to face Taker at Mania a few years ago? There was some promo videos of him saying he was gonna end the streak

Have Vansen.

His account from Greg Lambert's book Holy Grail:

"I don't credit the FWA [Frontier Wrestling Alliance] with getting me a shot with WWE, I credit Kat [Katie Lea Burchill/Winter] with getting me a try-out and then I credit myself," said the ever-modest Hade, reflecting on the experience [of signing with WWE].

"At the time there were talks going on about WWE setting up offices in the UK and they wanted to sign a bunch of British guys. Sheamus, Drew McIntyre and Wade Barrett were all at the same try-out as me. But I'm the only Brit who got signed the first time they saw me..."

Hade went to WWE's training ground in Florida and at first, had the time of his life in the Sunshine State.

"I was 26 and being British definitely helped with the ladies, if you know what I mean. I was out all the time... it was like being back at university!"

Then in 2008, Hollywood movie star turned WWE scriptwriter Freddie Prinze Jr. sat the former FWA and All-England Champion down at a SmackDown TV taping, and gave him some life-changing news.

"They were going to put me in a big storyline with The Undertaker.

"I was going to lead a gang of X-Men style mutants. Every week, I would send one of these guys after The Undertaker. After he had beaten them all, he would eventually face me at WrestleMania 25.

"It was f****** incredible. Freddie was really excited about the idea, he'd cleared it with Stephanie McMahon and she loved it."

On December 13th 2008, Hade made his debut on SmackDown, cutting a shadowy, sinister and cerebral speech. It was supposedly the first of many to set up his mega-money feud with the legendary Dead Man, one of the biggest superstars in American Wrestling of the past 20 years. As far as I [writer Greg Lambert] was concerned, my old buddy performed extremely well for a debutant, showing all the verbal confidence and charisma I'd always known he possessed in abundance.

But then?

"Then they told me they were putting the storyline on hold.

I went home for Christmas, and within a week I had been let go. They fired me."

Hade's is the most frustrating story, and a perfect example of the fickle and unforgiving nature of the wrestling business and especially its market leader, the global beast that is World Wrestling Entertainment. He left British Wrestling and seemed to have it made in American Wrestling. But in the end, American Wrestling chewed him up and spat him out.

Vansen was always a survivor though, with a "que sera sera" attitude to life which served him well after this heartbreaking rejection.

"Nobody ever gave me a reason why I'd been released, but there is one story that keeps doing the rounds, and I don't know if this is true or not, and that is Vince McMahon saw me backstage and thought I was way too small to be hanging with The Undertaker.

"But I wasn't devastated. When Freddie first told me about The Undertaker feud, although half of me had fireworks going off inside, the other half thought: 'Hang on a minute, this is too good to be true, you're not at WrestleMania yet, boy!'

"So when they said they had nothing for me, I decided to shrug my shoulders, have a cup of tea, and move on."

Shawn Michaels ended up taking Hade's spot as Taker's Mania opponent, not a bad substitute at all. Meanwhile the South City Thriller quit wrestling altogether and went to seek his fortune in sunny Los Angeles, the ideal home for his Hollywood looks. The real-life Hadrian Howard still lives in LA and has no intention of coming home, or returning to the squared circle, any time soon.

"I'd been wrestling for ten years and kind of gone as far as I wanted to go.

"I didn't want to work on the American independent circuit and wait for WWE to come along, pat me on the head and give me another go. So I thought I would be my own boss.

"I've done some acting in commercials, small film roles and appeared on Days of Our Lives, and I run a head-shot photography business as a sideline.

"I have my own flat in LA, I'm 20 minutes from the beach, the sun is always shining and you can't beat the women in California. I'm living the American Dream!"

As the story goes WWE/Undertaker didn't realise how short Hade was - a billed 5ft 11in.

Dep!

A long but interesting piece from the Wrestling Observer

"Two years ago, WrestleMania 28 was billed as “Once in a Lifetime.”

It wasn’t.

The big story at WrestleMania 30, as far as almost everyone knew as the show was going on, was the coronation on the big stage of Daniel Bryan as a somewhat unlikely WWE champion, in the sense when the plans for WrestleMania were put together late last year, nothing of the sort was supposed to happen. That did happen, but it wasn’t the big story.

A crowd of around 70,000 at the Mercedes Benz Superdome, and the millions watching around the world were watching the closing moments on what really was a poor wrestling match that was getting little reaction, even though it was supposed to be a highlight event on the show.

The crowd was so cold, maybe because the match wasn’t good, maybe because everyone knew the outcome, that when Brock Lesnar hit his first F-5, and The Undertaker kicked out, there was no reaction. Even when he did it a second time, there was very little reaction.

Then he did it a third time. Referee Chad Patton, who knew the same finish that everybody else thought they knew, hit the mat once, and then twice, and then didn’t know what to do.

He was told Undertaker was winning, but the rule every referee is told is that if the guys doesn’t kick out, you continue the count. Undertaker wasn’t kicking out. There was slight hesitation, which is why people were confused. Because he was confused. But he did his job. It was at that point that time stood still, while Lesnar whispered in Undertaker’s ear, “Thank you.” It was once in a lifetime. At least for this streak.

The most obvious pro wrestling comparison was January 18, 1971, at Madison Square Garden. Bruno Sammartino had been WWWF champion since May 17, 1963. There have been world title reigns as long, but it wasn’t the same thing. Lou Thesz had people believing he was the greatest wrestler in the world. Perhaps some thought the same of Verne Gagne. But neither was Superman. Dory Funk Jr. drew for years based on the idea that he was beatable. So did Nick Bockwinkel. Perhaps Rikidozan losing to The Destroyer in 1963 had that effect, because he was a national hero that had never lost in Japan, but fans knew he could lose. He himself said that he could never beat Karl Gotch.

Bruno was mortal, but he was also Superman, and he connected in a way that few wrestlers ever had. He had lost matches via DQ, count out, blood stoppages, but he had never been pinned cleanly. Ivan Koloff went to the top rope that night and dropped a knee on his chest. The referee counted three. The place went quiet. Then women started crying.

Nobody knew it was happening. In real life, Sammartino was beaten up and tired of the never ending schedule and just wanted to rest. He asked out. In doing so, he took a young French Canadian who idolized him, and made him one of the three biggest heels in pro wrestling for nearly another decade. I was live and saw Fedor’s winning streak end in San Jose, and Anderson Silva’s end in Las Vegas. Time absolutely stood still in the former. It wasn’t that many seconds that Fabricio Werdum had Fedor in the triangle. The clock claims the fight only went 69 seconds. I could swear he was in the triangle for minutes because time stood still. And then he tapped. The place went bananas. That was a 28 fight unbeaten streak lasting nine years, and every one of those wins were not scripted.

Anderson Silva went 16-0 against tougher competition and was the greatest of all-time. Unlike Lesnar, and unlike Werdum, and certainly unlike Koloff, we all recognized that Chris Weidman had a chance to win that night. But the way it happened threw everyone for a loop. Time didn’t stand still there at all. It was as in the time of a blink of the eye, a split second at most, to comprehend that the guy acting like he was wobbly to taunt the other guy and making fun that he couldn’t touch him, actually was knocked him out. The place went crazy.

He went seven years unbeaten in the UFC, and nobody scripted those outcomes either.

There are conflicting reports and messages on how many people knew what was going to happen when Undertaker got in the ring, possibly for the last time.

It was reported here that a few years back, when Undertaker and Lesnar first talked about doing the angle for this match at WrestleMania 27, that Undertaker had said he would want to put Lesnar over. That was likely to build for a rematch. It wasn’t set in stone. With knowledge of that, which we reported during the build-up, many figured it was Undertaker who made the call. That was not the case.

From the day the match was announced, until 3/31, at least, the finish everyone thought would happen was what was going to happen.

What happened after that was fuzzy. Only a few people knew before Sunday. If the ref himself wasn’t told before the match, that tells you it was probably Vince McMahon, who made the call, Undertaker, who had to agree, Lesnar who had to know in advance, and Paul Heyman. I would presume Stephanie McMahon and HHH knew, but it ended with that. None of the agents knew. The actual script for the show did not have a finish listed, but for this show, that wasn’t unusual, nor was it the only match like that, so there were no red flags.

Still, two major betting sites, had a late shift of money on Lesnar, so much that he went from a ridiculous 50-to-1 underdog, to an actual favorite.

As noted last week, McMahon had decreed that Undertaker would not get touched during the buildup. But the build to the match was weak and on the go-home show, Lesnar did leave Undertaker laying with an F-5.

With the benefit of hindsight, it wasn’t that McMahon was so protective of his star against a guy who was in some fans’ mind an outsider who became a star in WWE, but a superstar and super drawing card in UFC. Given McMahon’s history, that wouldn’t have been a stretch to assume that. It may have been simply McMahon knew Undertaker couldn’t take the punishment.

The Undertaker character could not be put down at WrestleMania. He was a cartoon superman, who somehow had made his scripted matches into legitimate reality for people around the world. They had been told that the streak was bigger than the Dolphins going 17-0, or DiMaggio hitting in 56 straight games. The streak actually started out inauspiciously. It wasn’t a long term plan. Many of the early matches were bad. Others were throwaways. Wins over Jake Roberts, King Kong Bundy and Jimmy Snuka on paper may look like nostalgia, but Snuka was a TV squash match and not pushed at all, the Roberts match was bad and Bundy had nothing left. The Giant Gonzalez match was worse. The Kane matches were hardly classics. But as match quality became more important in the post 2000 era, Undertaker rose to the occasion. Matches with Batista and Edge were strong WrestleMania headline matches. In the last five years, as his physical condition worsened and he was down to really doing only a few matches a year, and only one high profile one, the streak matches have been among the best matches of the year in pro wrestling. When put on the biggest stage, they become bigger and better.

Mark Calaway is a 49 year old man whose body turned on him more than a decade ago, but when he had his nights, like WrestleMania the previous several years, he simply denied the pain and became The Undertaker. I can recall having dinner with one of WWE’s biggest names, telling me how badly Calaway was hurting and that he probably only had a year or two left. That was in the early fall of 1997.

People were remarking when he came back this year how much he aged. I remember a story a few years back when the idea was brought up to him about maybe retiring at Cowboys Stadium, with the idea they’d break the Pontiac Silverdome record and he’d be the main attraction. He said he wasn’t going to last that long. The last three years, it was touch-and-go if he was going to come back, particularly last year. For some reason, this year it was always known he was coming back.

I had always figured it was a given that Undertaker would go into battle one last time, win, but this time nearly die in the process. The streak would be intact, and some kind of special effects would lead to a visual of him going to heaven, and we would never see the character again. Of course, being pro wrestling, two years later they’d try to figure out a way to bring him back. And it’s not like they didn’t already do that special effects deal with him before, and God knows how many times they killed Paul Bearer before he really died.

Lance Storm then wrote a piece. The short version of it was something that quite frankly, should have been said five years ago. It was a promo by an aging Undertaker confronting his own mortality, telling everyone that the streak would end, and he would retire when that happened. Such a thing would make the outcomes of his matches mean something. It would make WrestleMania mean something because instead of the common assumption that the guy would never lose, everyone knew he would at some point, just not when. The near falls would be bigger. People would probably have gasped and their hearts might have skipped a beat on that first and second F-5.

You could argue ending the streak was a bad idea. Or that even if it wasn’t, Brock Lesnar, a 36-year-old part-timer wasn’t the guy to do it with. And it wasn’t for Paul Heyman’s promo on Raw the next day, I’d agree with you.

Except, there was no choice. Whether Undertaker does another match or not, Vince McMahon was going on the assumption that this was his last hurrah, and he could either win, or lose. McMahon chose the idea that it was better to lose on your way out. That is the common wrestling mentality. Whether this should have been different, who knows? Lesnar happened to be the guy booked on the day McMahon came to this conclusion. Obviously, if Undertaker had told him that he was coming back next year, or argued, it may not have happened.

One person close to the situation said McMahon talked Undertaker into doing it. Another, who would also know, described it as McMahon making the call and Undertaker agreeing and that he wasn’t talked into doing something he didn’t want to do. It was not his original call, but he was in on it and never protested the call. And perhaps, like he thought in late 2010, if he was going to lose, maybe he thought this was the guy.

When it happened, fans were upset, but luckily they had the Daniel Bryan title win, which was really what everyone came to see since they all assumed Undertaker was winning and didn’t care that much about the match. If it wasn’t for that storyline, people would have probably been a lot more negative about the show. But they got a great show, and in the end, they saw two pieces of history in the same night.

At some point in the match, Mark Calaway suffered a severe concussion. The match wasn’t very heated, and it was worse because he went blank and was having to be led through. Nobody knows the exact spot, because when it was over, Calaway didn’t remember, or have any memory of most of the match. But he did know enough to not kick out at the key time.

At first, the announcers didn’t know what to do. The graphic wasn’t ready right away, nor was the music ready. The delay made fans think that maybe it was a mistake. The announcers were then given the cue by McMahon to talk about him as if this was the legendary gunfighter’s last fight, and talk of it like we’ve seen Undertaker for the final time.

The spot he got hurt in may have been when Lesnar used a high single leg takedown outside the ring and Undertaker fell backwards on the floor, hitting the back of his head. But that’s just speculation. The only thing for sure is it happened.

He also knew enough to stand there, and wait for the emotional outburst of the audience and the big standing ovation for the years of entertainment. Even if they didn’t know that this was his last performance, and again, it’s pro wrestling and it may not be, they knew that what he was best known for and what he will always be known for was over after 23 years.

The response was there. It wasn’t what I’d have imagined. There’s no way it could have been what Vince McMahon would have imagined.

Calaway legitimately was rushed to the hospital in an ambulance. Vince McMahon, even though there were two matches left in the show, including the main event, left with him to Ochshner Medical Center, where, after a CT scan, he was diagnosed with a severe concussion and kept overnight. The story that Paul Heyman told on Raw about coming close to a broken neck was just for drama, but the rest of what he said was legitimate. He was released Monday morning and was at Raw, but the decision was made not to use him. He was said to be limping bad and in rough shape.

There were many people in the company very unhappy about the call, but couldn’t say so publicly. But McMahon thought, and was probably correct, that he had no more streak matches left. And he may not have really had this one left in his body. At that point, it’s just a call. Do you end the storyline in a shocking way, or a predictable way? From a business standpoint, if he was never going to come back for a streak match, neither decision was better than the other.

The truth is, the story of every great streak includes the shock, awe, surprise and even sadness of when it ends. The most famous streaks in sports are most famous for the night they ended, or the match or game that ended it. And even in a scripted entertainment, this was no different."

rovert

However sceptical people are about the issue of the referee not knowing both Dave Meltzer and Mike Johnson are saying he didn't know.

I just read a question answered by Mike about the Taker/Brock match at Mania. In it he says very few people knew the outcome. That's certainly understandable but he said the ref didnt even know. How is that possible? Wouldn't the ref have to be in on it in case he had to take a bump or there was some sort of screwy finish?

The referee wasn't told and was counting the pinfall as he would any other. He wasn't aware that it was the finish when he counted. If they wanted him to take a bump, obviously they would have told him what they needed well in advance.

Dave Meltzer and Mike Johnson are the two most credible Wrestling journalists and have the largest base of sources.

spiralism

Dep! wrote: »

A very simple non conspiracy theory answer thats right on front of your faces here lads (and one that keeps with the "ref didnt know" story) ....

Before match: Ref is told Taker to win
In the ring and during - for example - Taker's entrance: Ref is told in his earpiece by Vince "Brock to win on third F5. Make sure you count to three!"

There is no way he'd have been able to run the match otherwise. Remember, the ref in most matches is like a film's director. He helps it ebb and flow and can change its pace etc if he's told to from Vince from the Gorilla position.

I'd be inclined to think it's this alright, they didn't want to take any chances and risk a ref bottling it on a three count with the streak

Ape Lincoln

rovert wrote: »

However sceptical people are about the issue of the referee not knowing both Dave Meltzer and Mike Johnson are saying he didn't know.



Dave Meltzer and Mike Johnson are the two most credible Wrestling journalists and have the largest base of sources.

I take what Meltzer says pretty seriously usually but look at the finish, the ref didn't hesitate at all in counting the three and calling for the bell. Wes Adams was fired for making a three count.

rovert

Ape Lincoln wrote: »

I take what Meltzer says pretty seriously usually but look at the finish, the ref didn't hesitate at all in counting the three and calling for the bell. Wes Adams was fired for making a three count.

Again your train of thought is valid.

I actually discussed this with a mate at the barbers today. :P

Without doing research on what I was reported at the time I think Wes may have been fired for other reasons and that was excuse. The referee position is very political believe it or not. For example Justin "The Black Ref" King said this in his local newspaper as reported in the March 17th 2014 Wrestling Observer:

Former referee Justin King isn't happy about his tenure in WWE. He said he believed when he was with WWE he was one of the best referees they had. He said his life since leaving WWE has taken a turn for the better. "I have an amazing job now and no more drama with grown ass men in stripes. I swear that most of the referees in WWE are a bunch of crybaby ass kids that need to grow up. Mike Chioda and Marc Harris and Rod Zapata, those were my people. Thank you Chad Patton and Jack Doan for helping me live my dream. John Laurinaitis is one of the best bosses I have ever had. I don't care what anyone says about him. Mark Carrano and Jane Geddes were the demise of my career. I have no love for Scott Armstrong, who tried to ruin my career, from the beginning, in 2009. Truth is I wanted nothing more than to have my twin and me in WWE together and we both were qualified enough, but they would rather take ass kissers over talent. Not looking for sympathy, but just to get the real truth out there. So for anyone looking to referee for WWE, better start learning politics and playing a real life game. As far as my life goes, I thank God every day I am done."

mrkiscool2

Not sure if this has been posted yet or not but I was reading through the Wrestlemania XXX travel thread and realised that "Shocked Undertaker Guy" actually posted in there!! BITW_Awesome is his name on here, this is the post from September

I was going to wait until mid September and then my wife made a valid point about sharing it now....so I am!

Several years ago, Triple H came out with a fitness book. It went into his story and also focused on how to train in the gym. After reading his book, I went out and got my first gym membership. Over time, I lost focused and continued to gain weight. About two year ago, I decided to change my life. I had the tools I gained from his book, and combined that with diet and focus so I could lose weight. At that time, I weighed 375lbs and now I weigh 260lbs. I looked back and know that if I never purchased that book, I would've never joined a gym, had the knowledge on how to train, and either be over 400lbs or dead.

So, when I met Triple H at last years Axxess, I wanted to tell him my story. I thought I only had a minute to talk to him. So I kept the story short in my head. I was actually the 3rd person in line to meet him. But t the last minute the two guys jumped out of line and I was the first one! I started to freak and I saw him come out.

Anyway, I walked up to him and gave him my belt to sign. He started to sign it and I told him that I wanted to thank him for saving my life. I started to break down crying. You never think you can tell someone you feel is your role model thank you for a life changing event. Anyway, I showed him my before and after picture. He said he wanted to keep it and then we did a video interview together and I did one alone for WWE. Afterwards, he responded to a tweet that I posted about the experience and he said he was humbled by my story. The best part of it was that he said he was proud of me. I cried again.

But that's the reason I know that nothing will top the experience I had at Wrestlemania 29. I met someone at inspired me on my journey that helped me save my life, I was with my wife (she won't be with me for WM30....this is my birthhday and graduation present) and....well...you cant ever top the excitement of your first time. :-)

Oh, and they played the part of Triple H and I hugging during the raw after mania.....Slightly embarrassing
I'm at the end of the last 20 secs of this video...
http://youtu.be/U6Mxux6xUmI

A Primal Nut

rovert wrote: »

According to the new Wrestling Observer Chad Patton the referee wasn't told Brock was winning. No one the 3 count was funny. Imagine what was going on in his head those few seconds. :eek:

I really don't believe this, enough people knew to sway the odds but the third most important person in the match didn't know?

Counting the wrong 3 in such an important match would be unthinkable, I would expect a lot of hesitation on his side.

Also, Undertaker suffered a concussion so one of the referee's concerns would be that Undertaker mightn't be able kickout or not have the wherewithall to do so. I believe referees have backup plans for situations like this. I can't believe that even under those circumstances, Lesnar or Taker (or someone in his headset) wouldn't tell him. It's also quite unprofessional for WWE to do something like this to the referee in such a big match. I really don't believe it.

Vince, Taker or Lesnar could easily have told the ref in gorilla position or during the match without Meltzer's source knowing.

I have a feeling the guy who told Meltzer this is the same guy who told him Punk was showing up in Chicago a few weeks ago.

A Primal Nut

My own feeling is that it needed to be an established star to end the streak and there really isn't anybody else this year; and given Undertaker's injuries it had to be this year. If Reigns, Cesaro or Wyatt ended the streak, there is still no guarantee they would go on to become stars. Maybe they would fade away and end up as midcarders as happened Ryback and numerous others. In a few years people on internet forums would be laughing that some midcarder ended the streak and it would tarnish Taker's legacy.

If Cena did it he would be hated even more than ever and wouldn't do him any good. Punk in a rematch would have been an option, but he isn't exactly reliable as a big star going forward; given that he walked out at such a critical time and anyway his contract is over in a few months and there was no sign of him renewing even before he walked out.

Bryan was busy winning the WWE title.

Orton or Batista; meh, the fans aren't going to treat them as big stars no matter what.

Ape Lincoln wrote: »

The bigger surprise besides whether or not the ref knew is that the Observer reported it was Vince McMahon's idea for Undertaker to put Lesnar over.

Corholio wrote: »

Another supposed story from the match is that Lesnar apparently whispered 'Thank You' into Undertaker's ear some time not long after the three count for granting him the honour of ending the streak.

It's clear from what Lesnar whispered to Taker that he cares about ending the streak and sees the significance. My own feeling is that Vince offered him the chance to end the streak in return for more dates with less money per match. Well, that's certainly what I would do if I was Vince. No doubt that Lesnar in more PPV's improves buyrates and network subscriptions (aura or no aura), so there is your business case right there.

It's notable in particular that Wrestling Observer have had very little information on Lesnar's contract status which makes me thing is was even more "need-to-know" than usual.

gnfnrhead

A Primal Nut wrote: »

My own feeling is that it needed to be an established star to end the streak and there really isn't anybody else this year; and given Undertaker's injuries it had to be this year. If Reigns, Cesaro or Wyatt ended the streak, there is still no guarantee they would go on to become stars. Maybe they would fade away and end up as midcarders as happened Ryback and numerous others. In a few years people on internet forums would be laughing that some midcarder ended the streak and it would tarnish Taker's legacy.

If Cena did it he would be hated even more than ever and wouldn't do him any good. Punk in a rematch would have been an option, but he isn't exactly reliable as a big star going forward; given that he walked out at such a critical time and anyway his contract is over in a few months and there was no sign of him renewing even before he walked out.

Bryan was busy winning the WWE title.

Orton or Batista; meh, the fans aren't going to treat them as big stars no matter what.

Imagine if Big Show and A-Train had done it at Wrestlemania 19 :pac:

rovert

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Vince, Taker or Lesnar could easily have told the ref in gorilla position or during the match without Meltzer's source knowing.

I have a feeling the guy who told Meltzer this is the same guy who told him Punk was showing up in Chicago a few weeks ago.

Again it doesn't just come from Meltzer. Mike Johnson is opposite number said the exact same thing.

A Primal Nut wrote: »

It's notable in particular that Wrestling Observer have had very little information on Lesnar's contract status which makes me thing is was even more "need-to-know" than usual.

???

Lesnar signed another two year deal last year.

gnfnrhead

rovert wrote: »

Again it doesn't just come from Meltzer. Mike Johnson is opposite number said the exact same thing.

There is zero chance that the referee did not know the result. He may have only been told just before he went out, but they are not stupid enough to leave the most important man in the dark about such a big result.

What happens if Undertaker was supposed to win, but gets knocked out by accident? The referee can't do his job and cover for it because he doesn't know any better. That does not happen for arguably the biggest match of the year.

rovert

gnfnrhead wrote: »

There is zero chance that the referee did not know the result. He may have only been told just before he went out, but they are not stupid enough to leave the most important man in the dark about such a big result.

What happens if Undertaker was supposed to win, but gets knocked out by accident? The referee can't do his job and cover for it because he doesn't know any better. That does not happen for arguably the biggest match of the year.

Referees are told to call matches like a real referee would I don't know why you can't grasp that.

gnfnrhead

rovert wrote: »

Referees are told to call matches like a real referee would I don't know why you can't grasp that.

How realistic is that scenario? Imagine Batista accidentally pins Bryan in the main event. "Oh fcuk, there goes everything we had planned, oh well!" Not a chance. The referee knows who wins and it is his job to ensure it happens as planned, or as close as possible.

rovert

gnfnrhead wrote: »

How realistic is that scenario? Imagine Batista accidentally pins Bryan in the main event. "Oh fcuk, there goes everything we had planned, oh well!" Not a chance. The referee knows who wins and it is his job to ensure it happens as planned, or as close as possible.

That's what I am saying. It is Bryan's job to kick out and referee's to hold a consistent count.

gnfnrhead

rovert wrote: »

That's what I am saying. It is Bryan's job to kick out and referee's to hold a consistent count.

And if Bryan fails to kick out, the referee just counts it anyway rather than doing the logical thing and covering for him?

Your claim may be valid on Raw when Del Rio faces Kofi in a random match, but it definitely doesn't happen in matches like Lesnar vs Undertaker. The stakes are far too high to be doing stupid things like that.

rovert

gnfnrhead wrote: »

And if Bryan fails to kick out, the referee just counts it anyway rather than doing the logical thing and covering for him?

Yes ask any WWE wrestler or referee. Or former referee Jimmy Korderas as he is pretty accessible.

thebostoncrab

Gotta agree with GNFRHEAD on this one. I fully understand and get that refs have to treat a match as if it is real and if someone doesn't kick out then that's their problem not the refs...but not for a major match up, especially one were the result is more important and influential that the contest itself. There is too much on the line for the ref to not know the result. I do 100% believe that the ref didn't know the result until he was heading out to the ring, or even a possibility that Vince told him through his ear piece during the match. It makes no logical sense for the ref for this match to be left in the dark 100%.

Ape Lincoln

There's only three instances where a ref counted three when he shouldn't have. I'm sure there's more but...

Survivor Series 1996 Free for All - Bradshaw getting counted for three by Tim White after kicking out at two.

Wrestlemania 2000 - Hardcore battle royal, there was a screwup between the clock and the buzzer and Bob Holly ended up pinning Crash for three when the buzzer was supposed to go off at two.

ECW August 8, 2008 - Matt Hardy pinned Morrison, the pin was supposed to be broken up by Miz, he screwed up and the ref counts three.


As I said, this whole refereeing it as a shoot thing is daft. If WWE moved to a more legit looking, snug style then cool but they haven't presented it as legit since before Hogan. Watch the kickouts - guys kick their leg up when pinned to denote a kickout yet their shoulders are still pinned. Daft.

Mr.Nice Guy

This was mentioned in the news thread but it's worth putting in here for discussion purposes.

Shawn Michaels has intimated that the decision to end the streak was a Vince McMahon call (seemingly dismissing the notion Taker wanted to end it) and that while it wasn't exactly a decision made at the eleventh hour, it was close enough:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boZC3yPw2X4

Michaels and J.R. sound pretty bummed about the whole thing. Personally speaking I maintain that it was a mistake to end it. Brock isn't around as per usual and when he returns I'm not convinced he's going to bring much more to the table than he did originally.

ShagNastii

I think for the last five or six years JR was that one voice that had stated constantly and openly that "The Streak" should NOT be broken. Remember seeing footage of him saying it was sacrosanct.

Donegal Dan

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

This was mentioned in the news thread but it's worth putting in here for discussion purposes.

Shawn Michaels has intimated that the decision to end the streak was a Vince McMahon call (seemingly dismissing the notion Taker wanted to end it) and that while it wasn't exactly a decision made at the eleventh hour, it was close enough:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boZC3yPw2X4

Michaels and J.R. sound pretty bummed about the whole thing. Personally speaking I maintain that it was a mistake to end it. Brock isn't around as per usual and when he returns I'm not convinced he's going to bring much more to the table than he did originally.

It was a good podcast as soon as it got to the interview with Shawn. The first 30 minutes, complete with JR promoting cupcakes, were terrible.

And I say that as a big fan of Ross.

Mr.Saturn

Anybody remarked that it was the exact same finish to their No Mercy 2002 match? Underklutz learned nothing in 12 years.