Is the suckler industry doomed?

Markcheese

The Cuban wrote: »

The smallest cow I have for some reason produces the best Weanlen every year

Good milk ? Good sire and dam ?
Out of nosiness what breed is the cow and do you put her to the same breed of bull every year . ? Does she throw mainly heifers or bull calves ?

The Cuban

Markcheese wrote: »

Good milk ? Good sire and dam ?
Out of nosiness what breed is the cow and do you put her to the same breed of bull every year . ? Does she throw mainly heifers or bull calves ?

She`s a WH X Fr, big bag of milk, has bred 7 Bulls and 2 heifers ( twins this year ).
i have bred her to Charolais, BB and Simmental. The Simmental was an outstanding Weanlen, the charolais were nearly as good but left far more money.

onyerbikepat

Have you seen the front of today's Farming Independent;
"Make or Break for Livestock farmers" - Kent

That's what I like about the ICSA, not afraid to 'call a spade, a spade'.

leg wax

exporters looking for stock here, seems to be a big demand for muscle, offered 3 euros a kilo for my best bulls and refused it , why they wont pay the value at home i cant understand when they go to the mart they will pay 1000 euro with the weight or 3.50 / 3.60 a kilo.they start this crack about transport mart fees weiht loss/. it does not add up to 200 euros.

onyerbikepat

I saw 430Kg BB weanling bulls make €1250 in SMB mart on Saturday. These were the plainer ones from a load. I missed the better ones going through.

leg wax

onyerbikepat wrote: »

I saw 430Kg BB weanling bulls make €1250 in SMB mart on Saturday. These were the plainer ones from a load. I missed the better ones going through.

2.90 a kg , and that was for the plain ones, i am not too far wrong so at 3,10 a kg for the whole lot. the good the bad and the fierce ugly.

keep going

Crossakiel wrote: »

The latest figures from Teagasc wouldn't inspire you to keep in the beef game, the gap between dairy and all other enterprises is really growing

Mighnt be too long before that gap closes again

frazzledhome

Anyone read piece in IFJ about prominent suckler farmer converting to dairy?

moy83

frazzledhome wrote: »

Anyone read piece in IFJ about prominent suckler farmer converting to dairy?

Yup , it seems he was making money at it but knows he will make more from milk

frazzledhome

moy83 wrote: »

Yup , it seems he was making money at it but knows he will make more from milk

He said he recons he's as efficient as possible costs pared to the bone and the income is still shyte

Do ye agree?

tanko

frazzledhome wrote: »

He said he recons he's as efficient as possible costs pared to the bone and the income is still shyte

Do ye agree?

It's impossible to disagree with that statement imo.

moy83

frazzledhome wrote: »

He said he recons he's as efficient as possible costs pared to the bone and the income is still shyte

Do ye agree?

I agree thats what he was saying and I also agree that the margin would be small . I think if the opportunity comes his way to go milking then fair play to him . But I wonder will he still be writing about the start up of that and how it goes for him ?

Muckit

Todays Connacht Tribune. The way it's written you would swear we're only sitting around scratching our ar**s.

moy83

Muckit wrote: »

Todays Connacht Tribune. The way it's written you would swear we're only sitting around scratching our ar**s.

Pity yer man in the journals article wasnt up beside it

Farmer Pudsey

Muckit wrote: »

Todays Connacht Tribune. The way it's written you would swear we're only sitting around scratching our ar**s.

Find it very hard to turn computer screen sideways to read it.

munkus

Some laugh. Reading that, you'd assume that dairy income was raised purely on efficiency, not that fact that milk prices went through the roof.

frazzledhome

Muckit wrote: »

Todays Connacht Tribune. The way it's written you would swear we're only sitting around scratching our ar**s.

That's not my reading. Income gap between best and worst needs to be closed. That said when the best are leaving because income is so low the industry is in trouble.

All the article says is one calf per cow per year and use more grass. I don't think that's unreasonable

frazzledhome

munkus wrote: »

Some laugh. Reading that, you'd assume that dairy income was raised purely on efficiency, not that fact that milk prices went through the roof.

Totally agree about dairying, lots of passengers getting away with it cause of high price and cash flow. This is a weakness in the dairy farming sector a small hiccup and some are under enormous pressure.

I hope this thread doesn't turn into a dairy vs suckler fest. The OP posed a question and I observed that one of your best is leaving due to income falling

frazzledhome

Muckit wrote: »

Todays Connacht Tribune. The way it's written you would swear we're only sitting around scratching our ar**s.

BTW, what do ye do?


Walk........runs away

munkus

frazzledhome wrote: »

I hope this thread doesn't turn into a dairy vs suckler fest. The OP posed a question and I observed that one of your best is leaving due to income falling

Agree completely. I'm delighted for dairy farmers and long may it continue. We were in dairy ourselves up until a few years ago.

frazzledhome

munkus wrote: »

Agree completely. I'm delighted for dairy farmers and long may it continue. We were in dairy ourselves up until a few years ago.

I know you agree, it was a general comment.

Would you consider going back into cows?

tabby aspreme

Was talking to a suckler man recently and he said averaging out over all his cows they would produce 5 calves in there lifetime, those that sound very low to ye lads

kake

tabby aspreme wrote: »

Was talking to a suckler man recently and he said averaging out over all his cows they would produce 5 calves in there lifetime, those that sound very low to ye lads

If you were following the better farm programme, that figure could be right. Basically if something doesn't go in calf within the 6 to 8 week breeding window then she's culled. Around here we'd probably give them another chance. I'll bet that a lot of farmers will carry a dry cow over the winter?

It's plausable that a cow's fertility pattern could go off track on average once every 5 years and if a strict culling policy were in place she would get the gate!!

frazzledhome

tabby aspreme wrote: »

Was talking to a suckler man recently and he said averaging out over all his cows they would produce 5 calves in there lifetime, those that sound very low to ye lads

If the cows were 7yo and calving at 2 it'd be excellent. However if they were 9 and calving at 3, some extra cost built in

munkus

frazzledhome wrote: »

I know you agree, it was a general comment.

Would you consider going back into cows?

Not really. Farm is over 100 acres in one block but I have a full time job. Knowing my luck, as soon as I'd ditch job and milk 100 cows price would drop to 15c.

Conmaicne Mara

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Find it very hard to turn computer screen sideways to read it.

Phone was a struggle to turn but I managed it, give the computer a proper go Puds

frazzledhome

munkus wrote: »

Not really. Farm is over 100 acres in one block but I have a full time job. Knowing my luck, as soon as I'd ditch job and milk 100 cows price would drop to 15c.

Then we'll have the "is the dairy industry doomed?"

Timmaay

God we're all a negative bunch here ha, a 15cent milkprice would only happen if WWR3 broke out in the morning. If a lad has 100acres on 1 block, I honestly can't see the difference in workload been say 100 5000l grass cows and the equivalent number of sucklers. With both sets you need to spend the spring calving, early summer at a breeding season, mid summer silage, and the winter housing/feeder them. Only difference is milking twice a day, the extra income will easily cover a milker for at least 2days a week, to be honest it should cover a fulltime milker.

I'll take your point munkus that if you have a well paid fulltime job that changes things however, becomes more difficult to juggle everything then. Although I most certainly wouldn't fancy managing a large number of sucklers combined with a fulltime job, fair play to ya, fulltime dairying only would surely be easier?

larrymiller

Timmaay wrote: »

God we're all a negative bunch here ha, a 15cent milkprice would only happen if WWR3 broke out in the morning. If a lad has 100acres on 1 block, I honestly can't see the difference in workload been say 100 5000l grass cows and the equivalent number of sucklers. With both sets you need to spend the spring calving, early summer at a breeding season, mid summer silage, and the winter housing/feeder them. Only difference is milking twice a day, the extra income will easily cover a milker for at least 2days a week, to be honest it should cover a fulltime milker.

I'll take your point munkus that if you have a well paid fulltime job that changes things however, becomes more difficult to juggle everything then. Although I most certainly wouldn't fancy managing a large number of sucklers combined with a fulltime job, fair play to ya, fulltime dairying only would surely be easier?

But someone in that situation would need some amount of investment to set up for milking. ( sorry for jumping in, it's something that id be interested in)

kake

Timmaay wrote: »

God we're all a negative bunch here ha, a 15cent milkprice would only happen if WWR3 broke out in the morning.

. . . or every country in Europe doubling its milk output??

larrymiller

kake wrote: »

. . . or every country in Europe doubling its milk output??

Actually I haven't heard much about milk lads across Europe expanding.
Is it going the same as here?
Land prices on the up?

Timmaay

Read the thread last week about the dutch dairyfarms who have borrowings of 17k/cow. Europe isn't going to double production itself.

Larry, on the cost of investment, it purely depends on what sort of infrastructure you have already, take a chap with 80/100 sucklers, and a decent slatted tank, and paddock system in place already, all he needs to do is slap in a parlour, holding yard, and some sort of cowlane system. Putting figures on the above, 10k for a bulktank, 15k for a basic 10unit parlour (both the tank and parlour priced with 40% grant), batch feeders/ meal bin 10k, all in a basic leanto shed 5k, thats 40k. Holding yard, 5k? Roadways, hard to put a figure on it, 10k should cover it plenty. Thats 55k. I've heard of plenty of chaps spending the likes of 200k+, I'd assume in that case they need loads more cubicles/slats etc.

rangler1

Timmaay wrote: »

Read the thread last week about the dutch dairyfarms who have borrowings of 17k/cow. Europe isn't going to double production itself.

Larry, on the cost of investment, it purely depends on what sort of infrastructure you have already, take a chap with 80/100 sucklers, and a decent slatted tank, and paddock system in place already, all he needs to do is slap in a parlour, holding yard, and some sort of cowlane system. Putting figures on the above, 10k for a bulktank, 15k for a basic 10unit parlour (both the tank and parlour priced with 40% grant), batch feeders/ meal bin 10k, all in a basic leanto shed 5k, thats 40k. Holding yard, 5k? Roadways, hard to put a figure on it, 10k should cover it plenty. Thats 55k. I've heard of plenty of chaps spending the likes of 200k+, I'd assume in that case they need loads more cubicles/slats etc.

His SFP would be well over 55k anyway if he was in suckling a while

munkus

Timmaay wrote: »

I'll take your point munkus that if you have a well paid fulltime job that changes things however, becomes more difficult to juggle everything then. Although I most certainly wouldn't fancy managing a large number of sucklers combined with a fulltime job, fair play to ya, fulltime dairying only would surely be easier?

Only joking about the 15cent . TBH, I was milking cows from the age of 10 until 25 through school and college. While I liked diary cows as they're quite animals, I couldn't be stuck there with them all day every day. I'd be on my own and would eventually go cracked. Maybe in 10 years with young lads comin up.

The job is well paid and interesting, meeting people you'd never interact with if farming full time.

bogman_bass

Germany and France gearing up to expand production. While they won't have anything near our growth %, on a volume basis they will increase in multibles of Ireland's growth. It's this growth post quota that will lead to lower prices rather than Ireland's growth. And that's not taking into acount Americas ability to turn on the taps when grain is cheap

onyerbikepat

“The European Commission have said there will be no more increase in (MILK) production, but I think that is rather naive, because we already see it in Ireland, Holland and Germany,” said Nick Holt-Martyn, principal consultant at The Dairy Group.
“Any small percentage change in our supply will have a large effect on global markets and this is something we have not seen with quotas.”
http://www.fwi.co.uk/articles/15/02/2014/143302/post-quotas-how-to-make-the-most-of-milk.htm

Timmaay

Grain is cheap at the minute, and the USA has yet to turn on the taps.

In any case I think I've had my say in this thread, my only point is to bring abit of balance to it, people see dairying as pure slavery over sucklers, whereas I think a well setup compact calving spring dairy system isn't a huge extra amount of work over sucklers. Both are tough work at times, you can't just shutup shop for a long weekend like a normal job and all that, but at least the dairying will return you a clearly much higher income. Milk prices will be volatile in the future, that is a given, however sucklers, I don't see anyone predicting any positivity in the sector at all moving forward?

kake

Timmaay wrote: »

Grain is cheap at the minute, and the USA has yet to turn on the taps.

In any case I think I've had my say in this thread, my only point is to bring abit of balance to it, people see dairying as pure slavery over sucklers, whereas I think a well setup compact calving spring dairy system isn't a huge extra amount of work over sucklers. Both are tough work at times, you can't just shutup shop for a long weekend like a normal job and all that, but at least the dairying will return you a clearly much higher income. Milk prices will be volatile in the future, that is a given, however sucklers, I don't see anyone predicting any positivity in the sector at all moving forward?

We were dairying up to 1993 and then sold off the quota and bought 60 extra acres of land which allowed us to move from 30 dairy cows to 50 sucklers. There's definitely less than half the amount of work in the sucklers. Yes there is a bit of work at calving time but with the right choice of sire and a proper feeding routine, most of the work is done from the bed (<10% assisted calvings this year with a CH stock bull and BB AI) with the camera. We were at the stage where dad was getting a bit older, but still had a good 20 years in him. Dairy cows were twice a day, 7 days a week. He could go away and get someone to milk but it was a constant concern for him that everthing would go right. With the sucklers now, he is still farming and active. They calve in a 4 to 6 week window. His major chore is feeding them - twice a week. They have to be looked at every day but if you miss a day it's not too big of loss. Checking can be done on the quad. In reality there is at least 50% less work with the sucklers than with dairy. It allows the farm successor to work off farm for the time being too and still be able to contribute majorly to the running of the farm when needed at times such as slurry, silage, calving, testing, etc!

onyerbikepat

Have to laugh how people pop up again under a diferent Username.

As for Dairying, nobody (myslef included) is trying to knock the industry but the reality is milk prices are almost certain to fall. Everyone agrees on that, that call it 'more volatility'. For a lot of smaller operators, they will find they can no longer make a living at it and the bigger guys will find they will have to work even harder to keep where they were.

Viewtodiefor

onyerbikepat wrote: »

Have to laugh how people pop up again under a diferent Username.

As for Dairying, nobody (myslef included) is trying to knock the industry but the reality is milk prices are almost certain to fall. Everyone agrees on that, that call it 'more volatility'. For a lot of smaller operators, they will find they can no longer make a living at it and the bigger guys will find they will have to work even harder to keep where they were.

Is it not like any industry lads, no one really knows what the future holds be that good or bad ? Everything gets good and bad runs to be fair

onyerbikepat

leg wax wrote: »

2.90 a kg , and that was for the plain ones, i am not too far wrong so at 3,10 a kg for the whole lot. the good the bad and the fierce ugly.

Have you sold them yet?

leg wax

onyerbikepat wrote: »

Have you sold them yet?

they are going to carnew this saturday,fingers crossed:D

Miname

leg wax wrote: »

they are going to carnew this saturday,fingers crossed:D

I hope you get 3.50 a kilo and you can come on here and tell the dairy boys and the extensive farmers.

farm14

dh1985 wrote: »

You hardly have an idea of what those bulls weighed last october/november. Was most weighed gain before been housed?

How long are they eating meal though? How much did they eat over their lifetime?

farm14

frazzledhome wrote: »

Anyone read piece in IFJ about prominent suckler farmer converting to dairy?

He said the best he ever made from suckling was half that of the minimum wage. Lads do go on too much about milk being volatile & it will but over long term it just has to be accepted its the most profitable. Dairy is king for profit in this country where we can grow grass which is v low cost if well managed. He made a great point comparing dairy to sucklers in a good year €4/kg beef only breaks even & the best dairy farmers which can produce milk for 23c/l breaks even in a v bad year. That's the difference. In saying all that alot of dairy guys could be get more efficient before they expand but the best producers will always have a good business.

dh1985

farm14 wrote: »

How long are they eating meal though? How much did they eat over their lifetime?

Not following what your asking here

Farmer Pudsey

The question you have to ask is it economical to keep a cow to produce one calf/year. It lloks like cattle exceeding 380 kgs longterm and maybe less will be hard to market. So what are the options.

We all know it is not viable to produce a calf that will only weight 250 kgs at year end. There only two options taht may be viable in my opinion. Produce an animal for export if that market is there. Or else use a cow and bull that will produce a calf that is capable of being taken to slaughter at sub 16 months as a bull at 340-360kgs carcase weight if that market is available. This calf would want to be born Jan-Mar be 370kgs+ at November, gain 1Kg/day on a build up period and over intensive period gain another 120kgs.

He need to be capable of killing 58%+. I do not think that steer beef is viable for sucklers and I think producer will have to carry animal to slaughter. Not sure about heifer calf's IMO they will need to be capable of being killed at 20ish months at 330kgs off grass with minimal meal.

Muckit

Killing a spring born animal at 20mths will mean klillng out of the shed in the second winter.

The older the animal is, the easier they put on condition, especially continental heifers. SO why would you kill earlier, save for the stupid carcass weight restrictions laid down by the factories? Both the factories and consumers would need to be educated in this regard.

Farmer Pudsey

Muckit wrote: »

Killing a spring born animal at 20mths will mean klillng out of the shed in the second winter.

The older the animal is, the easier they put on condition, especially continental heifers. SO why would you kill earlier, save for the stupid carcass weight restrictions laid down by the factories? Both the factories and consumers would need to be educated in this regard.

Because at housing costs climb from 1.50/day ( 4kgs of ration and grass at auataum) to 2.5/3 euro/day. it is ok if animal is highly efficent and you get a price rise during the winter. However if not highly efficent and meat prices fall as last winter you lose mony ver fast or are working for nothing.

Also the heavier an animal is the more inefficent on weight gain they become. I have always that the most money out of Dairy bulls was to kill pre/post Christmass. After that static price and poor feed conversion made it a money loser.

allbuiz

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The question you have to ask is it economical to keep a cow to produce one calf/year. It lloks like cattle exceeding 380 kgs longterm and maybe less will be hard to market. So what are the options.

We all know it is not viable to produce a calf that will only weight 250 kgs at year end. There only two options taht may be viable in my opinion. Produce an animal for export if that market is there. Or else use a cow and bull that will produce a calf that is capable of being taken to slaughter at sub 16 months as a bull at 340-360kgs carcase weight if that market is available. This calf would want to be born Jan-Mar be 370kgs+ at November, gain 1Kg/day on a build up period and over intensive period gain another 120kgs.

He need to be capable of killing 58%+. I do not think that steer beef is viable for sucklers and I think producer will have to carry animal to slaughter. Not sure about heifer calf's IMO they will need to be capable of being killed at 20ish months at 330kgs off grass with minimal meal.

I think this latest statement by factories of lower weights is a load of crap. If there was a shortage of cattle anything will do. Don't be fooled.