"Not to be sold individually"

doublej

glued wrote: »

You can't ignore VAT inputs when calculating profit. It defeats the purpose

Glued;be sensible.
A product that is vat inclusive cost of €12.30 is ex vat €10.00.
It sells for €18.45 vat incl,€15.00 ex vat.

The cash and % margin are exactly the same whether with or without VAT .€18.45- €12.30 is €6.15 vat incl;less vat it is €5, which is the same as €15-€10.

If I buy for €10 and sell for €15, the margin is 33.3%
If I buy for €12.30 and sell for €18.45 the margin is 33.3%.

Shelflife

glued wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Read my post again

I did, you said that I was completely wrong when I was talking about margins and then rambled on about VAT figures when we were discussing margins.

I backed up my original figures with specifics and you give me rolly eyes and read my post again crap.

The original poster stated that retailers made 52% on a pack sold at €3.80 and 92% on a split pack which is utter bull****, if those figures were true id be retired in the bahamas at this stage instead of working 7 day weeks, I corrected the poster and you stated that I was completely wrong and threw out some vat figures, which although they were correct added nothing to the discussion.

I stand over my figures.

skelligs

glued wrote: »

Hi Shelfie,

Both of you are completely incorrect.

The vendor pays €1.25 per bottle. That has a VAT input of 29c. They sell for €2.40. Which has a VAT output of 55c. This gives rise to a VAT liability of 26c per bottle. The vendor makes €1.15 - 26c = €0.89 per bottle.

You would probably want to get your figures correct before attacking another poster.

No-one seems to be able to get your figures.

Retail price of €2.40 = net price before vat of €1.95 (1.95 = 23% = 2.40)

Cost price is 1.25 (for ease of figures)

So by splitting the pack which very few retailer do (bottle are marked part of multi pack) the retailer has a profit before costs of 70c or 36%. Selling at 3.80 based on a cost of 2.50 + Vat (1.25x 2) give a profit before costs of 59c or 19% net of vat.

When calculating margins or doing a cost/retail analysis, you always disregard vat as vat is not a net part of your cost or profit.

MrStuffins

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

My issue would be far less with selling 'not for individual sale' items but you actually went to the till with a promotional pack that was intact and at the point of sale you were told "sorry, you cannot buy this promotional pack as you found it on the shelf for sale, as we open them and sell them individually"?

Well I hadn't gone to the till. I was in the shop and the promotional packs were out on the floor. When I went to pick one up I was told that they were goin to be broken p and sold individually. Later on when I returned to the shopm the bottles all had "Not to be Sold Separately" on them.

P. Breathnach

MrStuffins wrote: »

Well I hadn't gone to the till. I was in the shop and the promotional packs were out on the floor. When I went to pick one up I was told that they were goin to be broken p and sold individually. Later on when I returned to the shopm the bottles all had "Not to be Sold Separately" on them.

Hmm. Did you return to buy stuff there, or to satisfy your (and our) curiosity?

MrStuffins

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Hmm. Did you return to buy stuff there, or to satisfy your (and our) curiosity?

Well, I thought "surely the bottles say 'not to be sold separately'?" so I went back to check if they had. I then bought my Coca Cola in the neighbouring shop alongside everything else I had on the shopping list

glued

skelligs wrote: »

No-one seems to be able to get your figures.

Retail price of €2.40 = net price before vat of €1.95 (1.95 = 23% = 2.40)

Cost price is 1.25 (for ease of figures)

So by splitting the pack which very few retailer do (bottle are marked part of multi pack) the retailer has a profit before costs of 70c or 36%. Selling at 3.80 based on a cost of 2.50 + Vat (1.25x 2) give a profit before costs of 59c or 19% net of vat.

When calculating margins or doing a cost/retail analysis, you always disregard vat as vat is not a net part of your cost or profit.

I was ignoring VAT and I removed it from the calculation. I'm sure if you re-read my post you will see that.

Also 3.80 is the RRP not the figure the shop is selling it for, which was the whole point of the thread....

rubadub

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

For certain items that are sold seperately from the main box (eg if you were selling individual bars from selection box) the wrapper of the item doesn't come with the ingredients in english and contact details of a European supplier, selling items like this would be illegal.

Can you point to the law on this? I also presumed they purposely left off information to make it harder to sell. But then how are shops selling other stuff with little or no labelling? If I go into a Leonidas shop and select chocolates I get no info like weight or ingredients, or they can be ready boxed. I can get cakes in tesco with no info, or chocolate biscuits etc.

The only legal issue I do imagine is at risk is the weights. I expect if you say a bag of crisps is 25g then legally it must be within a certain tolerance, like 20-30g. Often with multipack crisps you will get some really light bags, far lighter than any retail pack variation. I figure they have machines running faster at wider tolerances. Then I imagine the overall weight of the multipack is within tolerance but you might have a 15g and a 35g bag in the same pack -cancelling each other out.

MrStuffins wrote: »

I then bought my Coca Cola in the neighbouring shop alongside everything else I had on the shopping list

I often buy broken up packs since the retailer can afford to sell cheaper if working on the same margins. Or course some will charge the same or even more, but the way some people go on you would swear no shop has ever passed on even a small % of the savings.

Many shops I go to engage in this practice, I seek out shops which are good value and it makes sense that they would be doing this. I avoid expensive shops, many of which also engage in this practice.

slimjimmc

rubadub wrote: »

Can you point to the law on this? I also presumed they purposely left off information to make it harder to sell. But then how are shops selling other stuff with little or no labelling? If I go into a Leonidas shop and select chocolates I get no info like weight or ingredients, or they can be ready boxed. I can get cakes in tesco with no info, or chocolate biscuits etc.

The only legal issue I do imagine is at risk is the weights. I expect if you say a bag of crisps is 25g then legally it must be within a certain tolerance, like 20-30g. Often with multipack crisps you will get some really light bags, far lighter than any retail pack variation. I figure they have machines running faster at wider tolerances. Then I imagine the overall weight of the multipack is within tolerance but you might have a 15g and a 35g bag in the same pack -cancelling each other out.


I often buy broken up packs since the retailer can afford to sell cheaper if working on the same margins. Or course some will charge the same or even more, but the way some people go on you would swear no shop has ever passed on even a small % of the savings.

Many shops I go to engage in this practice, I seek out shops which are good value and it makes sense that they would be doing this. I avoid expensive shops, many of which also engage in this practice.

Here you go.
http://www.fsai.ie/legislation/food_legislation/labelling_of_food.html
and
http://www.fsai.ie/legislation/food_legislation/labelling_presentation_advertising_foodstuffs/general_labelling_provisions.html

The current legislation applies to the general labelling of pre-packaged foodstuffs for sale to the consumer and the catering industry within the European Union.

kc90

glued wrote: »

You can't ignore VAT inputs when calculating profit. It defeats the purpose

glued wrote: »

I was ignoring VAT and I removed it from the calculation. I'm sure if you re-read my post you will see that.

Also 3.80 is the RRP not the figure the shop is selling it for, which was the whole point of the thread....

What am I missing here?

rubadub

slimjimmc wrote: »

Here you go.
http://www.fsai.ie/legislation/food_legislation/labelling_of_food.html
and
http://www.fsai.ie/legislation/food_legislation/labelling_presentation_advertising_foodstuffs/general_labelling_provisions.html

Some interesting stuff in this PDF, which explains it in normal language.

https://www.fsai.ie/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=1220

Sugar, cocoa and chocolate confectionery products less
than 50gm in weight are exempt from declaring the net
quantity on the label however, the remaining general
labelling rules apply (as per European Communities
(Labelling, Presentation and Advertising of Foodstuffs)
(Amendment) (No.2) Regulations, 2003 (S.I. No. 451
of 2003))

I always noticed wispas & aeros and some other light bars did not declare weight and I wondered how they got away with hiding the fact that they are miserably small. Several bars have dropped below that limit recently.

(e) Other exemptions
Individually wrapped fancy confectionery
Individually wrapped fancy confectionery not enclosed
in any further packaging and intended for sale as a single
item need only indicate the name of the product and the
name and address of the manufacturer, packer or seller on
the label. Fancy confectionery is taken to mean a product in
the form of a figure, an animal, egg etc. or in any other
fancy form

You could argue a mulitpack bar is this. Often the address would be missing though.


Below is probably the Leonidas case

(b) Food pre-packaged for direct sale
Pre-packaged food that is packaged by a person who sells
them for retail sale on the same premises (or from a vehicle
used by that person) need only indicate the name of the
food on the label, e.g. coleslaw pre-packed into containers
on the premises need only declare the name ‘coleslaw’ on
the label.
However, where the person packaging the food sells it from
another premises owned by him/her, or onto another
business, the exemption no longer applies and the food
must be labelled in full.

Below would be tesco chocolate cookies made in house

(c) Pre-packaged flour confectionery for direct sale
Pre-packaged flour confectionery for sale on the premises
from which they are produced, need only indicate the
name of the food on the label, e.g. a pre-packaged
Madeira Cake baked on the premises from which it is sold
need only indicate ‘Madeira Cake’ on the label.

http://ec.europa.eu/food/food/labellingnutrition/foodlabelling/docs/qanda_application_reg1169-2011_en.pdf

2.1.2 In the case of a 'multipack' package consisting of individually
packed items which are sold by producers to
wholesalers/retailers, should the mandatory particulars required
under Articles 9 and 10 of the FIC Regulation appear on each
individually packed item?
This transaction concerns a stage prior to sale to the final consumer where the sale/supply to mass caterers is not involved. In such a case, the mandatory particulars required under Articles 9 and 10 of the FIC Regulation shall appear in one of the following places:
• On the prepackaging [i.e. on the 'multipack' package]; or,
• On a label attached thereto; or,
• On the commercial documents referring to the foods, where it can be guaranteed that such documents either accompany the food to which they refer or were sent before or at the same time as delivery. In such cases, however, the following particulars must also appear on the external packaging in which the prepacked foods are
presented for marketing:
ƒ The name of the food;
ƒ The date of minimum durability or the 'use by' date;
ƒ Any special storage conditions and/or conditions of use;
ƒ The name or business name and address of the responsible food business operator.
Therefore, each individually packed item need not to be labelled as such.
However, if the wholesaler/retailer decides to sell the individually packed items to the final consumer, he must ensure that the mandatory particulars required under Articles 9 and 10 of the FIC Regulation appear on each one of them, on the basis of the information appearing on the prepackaging or on a label attached thereto or on the accompanying commercial documents.

dring

MrStuffins wrote: »

Hi,

My local Spar refused to sell me a special pack of Coca Cola, I think it was 2 of €3.50, on the basis that "We're opening them and selling them separate".

They then opened up the packs and sold them as individual bottles for €2.40 a bottle, dispite the fact that it said "not to be sold separately" on the bottles.

Is there anyone I can email in this situation?

If it says "2 for 3.50" on the pack then are they not obliged to sell the pack at the price?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

ScouseMouse

dring wrote: »

If it says "2 for 3.50" on the pack then are they not obliged to sell the pack at the price?

Put it like this. If you set up tomorrow makeing a product. Lets say biscuits.

You can put on the label RRP 1.99. RRP stands for RECOMMENDED retail price. However, you do not have any say in the selling price, and if you try to force the store to sell at that price, you fall foul of price fixing legislation.

It can have whatever on the front, but there is absolutley obligation to sell at that price.