Replacing 8.5kw with 9.5kW shower

Sleeper12

Triton showers sold in Ireland are boxed & labled for Ireland (Unlike Mira showers). So when you see9.5KW on a triton T90Z box it is rated for ireland 230v & not 240v UK. So you are back to needind greater than 40amp rcbo. Problem? you cant get 45 amp. So you make do with 40amp & it may trip a few times per year or it might not.

Cable size is the most important thing here. You need 10mm for 9KW or over. Triton are now saying on their boxes they recomend 10mm even on 8.5KW showers. Although you don't need 10mm on 8.5kw anyone putting in a shower from scratch should use 10mm cable. This future will proof the install & the homeowner can change the shower in years to come to 9.5KW

Again a good electrician is needed & with all tradesmen coming into your house ask to see his insurance cert. I have seen an electrician installing a shower & drilled into a pipe. He packed his bags & left with the slowly flooding! On the dole & no insurance!

2011

A 40A B type RCBO will not nuisance trip when feeding a 9.5kW shower due to the fusing characteristics of the device. At 230VAC it is drawing less than 42 amps which is only fractionally above the protective device rating, so no problem for a B type device.

Have a look at the graph shown on page 1 on this link:

http://www05.abb.com/global/scot/scot209.nsf/veritydisplay/b4f98ecc257a2a6c482579050006afb2/$file/1SXE420001L0202_092011_LP.pdf

2011

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

yes

but it's a breach of wiring rules all the same

Correct, but a 40A MCB protecting a load that draws fractionaly over 41A is not going to cause an electrical problem.
I take your point though, it is againt ET101 as the design current exceeds the rating of the protective device.

tomdempsey200

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

yes... I mean 'install methods' not length of run obviously

what are the capacities ballpark for different domestic installs

bungalow,ground floor,first floor locations

what is the answer to this

tomdempsey200

half the homes in the country were wired in 6sq on B40s

I'm not sure that it complies with wiring rules at all regardless of shower rating

2011

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

half the homes in the country were wired in 6sq on B40s

I'm not sure that it complies with wiring rules at all regardless of shower rating

A few things to consider:

1) I would think that if you were to measure the current drawn by an instantaneous shower that has 9.5kW on the name plate you will find that in reality it draws less than 40A. Therefore I think that you could argue that you have verified that the design current is less than the rating of the protective device, so it fully complies with ET101.

2) A 6sq. mm cable in reality can take the full load current of 8.5 and 9.5kW loads. However the designer/electrician needs to ensure that the volt drop and earth fault loop impedance (EFLI) values are not exceeded. This is generally dependant on the length of run.

3) As the size of the MCB (or RCBO) rating is reduced then the threshold for the EFLI value increases. This applies once the protective device type remains constant, so for domestic this would be a B Type. So what does this mean? It means that if a 40A MCB or RCBO is used then a higher EFLI value is acceptable than if a 45A protective device was used. This means that a smaller cable size may be selected in some cases.

4) There is the option of installing a RCD and a 45A MCB. These MCBs are a little harder to source, but it is possible.


5) A 6 sq. T+E and a 40A MCB/ RCBO is the perfect combination for most 8.5kW showers in the country. The issue is more for the 9.5 kW units.

tomdempsey200

2011 wrote: »

A few things to consider:

1) Therefore I think that you could argue that you have verified that the design current is less than the rating of the protective device, so it fully complies with ET101.

you've left out one detail... which was my query

design current and rating of protective device must be lower than cable ccc

2011

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

you've left out one detail... which was my query

design current and rating of protective device must be lower than cable ccc

No, I didn't. See point 2:

2) A 6sq. mm cable in reality can take the full load current of 8.5 and 9.5kW loads. However the designer/electrician needs to ensure that the volt drop and earth fault loop impedance (EFLI) values are not exceeded. This is generally dependant on the length of run.

2011

ET101:2008
Tables A52-F1 and A52-F2, PVC insulated cables with copper conductors, (1 phase) installation methods B1, C, D, and E are all shown to have current carrying capacities in excess of 40A despite the fact that the reference ambient temperature is high (30DegC).

The current carrying capacities for a 10 sq. PVC insulated cable with copper conductors in the same tables ranges from 43 to 70A depending on the method of installation.

Obviously a number of factors need to be taken into account when cable sizing, such as method of installation.

Sleeper12

2011 wrote: »

No, I didn't. See point 2:

Can I just say a normal householder asked a reasonably simple question (with photos no less) & the answers got more & more complex as the thread continues. Is this thread to try answer his questions in a way he might understand or is it about egos? Op must be more confused now than before he asked some simple questions.....

tomdempsey200

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

Can I just say a normal householder asked a reasonably simple question (with photos no less) & the answers got more & more complex as the thread continues. Is this thread to try answer his questions in a way he might understand or is it about egos? Op must be more confused now than before he asked some simple questions.....

well yes, but he hasn't provided basic information like cable size or even a photo of the cable



so what useful advice can he be given?


he may attempt something without considering all the variables and hazards

Sleeper12

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

well yes, but he hasn't provided basic information like cable size or even a photo of the cable



so what useful advice can he be given?


he may attempt something without considering all the variables and hazards

Very simple advice. Stick to 8.5kw shower & let a plumber or electrician swap it for around €100 or change to 10mm cable for 9.5kw. For around €250. Give or take €50. I guarantee he couldn't follow the last few posts. I'm in the business & I'm finding it hard.
Basic advice on this is get a good electrician if you want 9.5kw.
No one even bothered to tell him that a 40amp pull cord switch won't suit long term.
That's all he needs. Simple answers

2011

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

Can I just say a normal householder asked a reasonably simple question (with photos no less) & the answers got more & more complex as the thread continues.

Unfortunately in life simple answers do not necessarily follow simple questions.
"Why is the sky blue?" springs to mind

In this case a very simple answer (and possibly the best for the OP) was provided in post #2

Is this thread to try answer his questions in a way he might understand or is it about egos? Op must be more confused now than before he asked some simple questions.....

You are ignoring the fact that this thread was also dealing with questions asked by electricians.


However I think that a layperson reading this thread would conclude:

1) That swapping out a 8.5kW shower for a 9.5kW shower will most likely be costly.

2) Will require the services of a professional electrician

3) Will most likely involve replacing the cable.

4) It may be far more cost effective to replace the existing unit with one of the same rating.

5) It is not possible to know exactly what is required without carrying out a survey first.

6) There is a reason that it takes 4 years to qualify as an electrician and the work can be technical in nature.

7) Electricity can kill, don't muck around with it if you don't know exactly what you are doing.

tomdempsey200

2011 wrote: »

5) It is not possible to know exactly what is required without carrying out a survey first.

correct

who knows without taking a look whether the 'installation' is suitable for additional loading


tpmcompany1 has overlooked this in the rush to simple answers, which may mislead the op further

Bruthal

frankmul wrote: »

2011 pointed out in a thread before that a shower rated at 9.5 kW /240v is only a 9.1 kW shower here at 230 volts. In one of the shower manuals. Current works out just below 40 amps. 40 amp rcbo should be ok then.

A 9.5kw shower at 240v is actually 8.7kw at 230v.

It has all been mentioned before a few times.

tomdempsey200

Bruthal wrote: »

A 9.5kw shower at 240v is actually 8.7kw at 230v.

It has all been mentioned before a few times.

i think the UK has gone 230v ...in theory anyhow

Sleeper12

2011 wrote: »

Unfortunately in life simple answers do not necessarily follow simple questions.
"Why is the sky blue?" springs to mind

In this case a very simple answer (and possibly the best for the OP) was provided in post #2



You are ignoring the fact that this thread was also dealing with questions asked by electricians.


However I think that a layperson reading this thread would conclude:

1) That swapping out a 8.5kW shower for a 9.5kW shower will most likely be costly.

2) Will require the services of a professional electrician

3) Will most likely involve replacing the cable.

4) It may be far more cost effective to replace the existing unit with one of the same rating.

5) It is not possible to know exactly what is required without carrying out a survey first.

6) There is a reason that it takes 4 years to qualify as an electrician and the work can be technical in nature.

7) Electricity can kill, don't muck around with it if you don't know exactly what you are doing.

If you had posted this answer 4 pages ago op might not have been so confused.
Op here is your answer. Please ignore all the rest!

tomdempsey200

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

If you had posted this answer 4 pages ago op might not have been so confused.
Op here is your answer. Please ignore all the rest!

including yours..

Bruthal

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

Basic advice on this is get a good electrician if you want 9.5kw.
No one even bothered to tell him that a 40amp pull cord switch won't suit long term.

A 9.5kw shower is likely going to draw marginally under 40 amps in real life. So a 40 amp pull chord not doing the job long term will be due to factors other than being overloaded.

That's all he needs. Simple answers

Very little in life seems to have simple answers.

Bruthal

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

If you had posted this answer 4 pages ago op might not have been so confused.
Op here is your answer. Please ignore all the rest!

We can have 2 post threads from now on, now that your here:)

tomdempsey200

yep


all simple answers from now on

tpmcompany1 is going to shake-up the forum

Sleeper12

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

i think the UK has gone 230v ...in theory anyhow

As stated above Triton showers are boxed, printed etc for Earthridge & the Irish market. They are quoted at 230 v & not 240v. Someone has confused them with Mira showers. These are quoted in 240v ie 9.8kw is actually 9kw @230v

Sleeper12

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

yep


all simple answers from now on

tpmcompany1 is going to shake-up the forum

I'm not trying to shake up anything.

Do you really talk to homeowners that technical when pricing jobs?
Do they need all that info..?
Can they understand that info?
I just don't get it. Homeowners haven't spent 4 years training and in college learning this stuff. Some have no education.
How do you communicate with the client?
Again I just don't get it.

Sir Arthur Daley

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

As stated above Triton showers are boxed, printed etc for Earthridge & the Irish market.

Pity they dont provide half inch nut and olive instead of 15mm, unless i am the only one using half inch pipe at termination point.

Bruthal

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

I'm not trying to shake up anything.

Do you really talk to homeowners that technical when pricing jobs?
Do they need all that info..?
Can they understand that info?
I just don't get it. Homeowners haven't spent 4 years training and in college learning this stuff. Some have no education.
How do you communicate with the client?
Again I just don't get it.

Interesting link Here from the poster you direct your post at there.

Its post #2

Bruthal

Never thought IBTL would be used in this forum....

Sleeper12

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Pity they dont provide half inch nut and olive instead of 15mm, unless i am the only one using half inch pipe at termination point.

You see electrician trying to do a plumbing job.

Do you know a lot of the old Esb contractors used to use 15mm pipe from the tank using crappy John guest push on fittings just because the inlet pipe is 15mm.
Here is a plumbers tip for you. Run Irish half inch pipe from tank to shower. Use 15mm elbow supplied. Tighten. Walk away. If tightened properly with the right tools 15mm nut and ring are fine on Irish half inch pipe. Why do you think it's in the Irish box.

Bruthal

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

You see electrician trying to do a plumbing job.

Trying to plumb in a shower? 4 years training first is it?

Here is a plumbers tip for you.

The rocket science begins.

Run Irish half inch pipe from tank to shower. Use 15mm elbow supplied. Tighten. Walk away. If tightened properly with the right tools 15mm nut and ring are fine on Irish half inch pipe. Why do you think it's in the Irish box.

I did that before. The whole estate was flooded a few weeks later:eek:

Sir Arthur Daley

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

You see electrician trying to do a plumbing job.

You would be incorrect there if its a guess at my profession.

Here is a plumbers tip for you. Run Irish half inch pipe from tank to shower. Use 15mm elbow supplied. Tighten. Walk away. If tightened properly with the right tools 15mm nut and ring are fine on Irish half inch pipe. Why do you think it's in the Irish box.

Thanks for the tip, here is another: Lefty loosey, Righty Tighty.

Sleeper12

Bruthal wrote: »

Trying to plumb in a shower? 4 years training first is it?



The rocket science begins.


I did that before. The whole estate was flooded a few weeks later:eek:

You didn't do it properly. I fit & repair up to 1000 electric showers per year 85‰ are Triton. I only do showers. I have never been called back even for a drip. Never.

Not being an electrician I bring an electrician with me on all full installs.