Store lambs?

Username John

Hello all,

Wanted to discuss store lambs with ye all

I am starting this thread for 2 reasons :
1. Based on the factory price, is there money to be made on store lambs?
2. The time I spend farming is becoming less and less for me. Is lambing the best use of my time, or is there a viable alternative?

From what I can see, over the past 2 - 3 years, the difference in price between hoggets and spring lamb isn't as great as it once was.
(Now - you could argue that the price for Spring lamb isn't increasing as it should, which I would agree with. But that's another debate...)

So - given the 'higher' relative price for hoggets early in the year, is there greater (or any ) scope to make money from store lambs?

The direct costs I can immediately think of would be
€6 - Transport (€3 each way)
€3 - Dosing (This is a total guess, is this realistic?)
€5 - Mortality (what's a realistic figure here, 5%?)
€6 - Ration *

* Based on feeding 400g / day for 6 weeks, at €9 / 25kg bag.

Please feel free to tear these numbers apart, add in items I haven't thought of...

This gives total costs of €20 / lamb... (nice round figure, can you tell I am kinda making it up as I go)

The price for the last 2 years has been €5 - €6 (depending on when they were sold) up to 23kg.
So lets take the lower price of €5, and an average weight of weight of 22kg = €110

So...
Sales price = €110
Costs = €20 (so far)

As it seems €20 is what farmers are making on ewes, lets say I want to make this on each lamb... which leaves €70 for purchase price...

Could I get good lambs for €70, that would grow enough over the winter (on mainly grass?)
I don't know what kinda weight lambs this would get, being totally honest as I am never really in the mart...

Right, I have prob written enough...

What ye think?

As I said above, these are just my own ramblings, please feel free to add / comment / tear apart...

Thanks.

AnFeirmeoir

Never did it but one of the downsides i'd see is it adds work just at the worst time. If i had to worry about weiging / drafting and feeding hoggets separately and going to the mart/factory over the past 3 weeks i think i'd have cracked up.

It's easy say it now that lambing is over and we forget how crazy a month March is. Fair fks to anyone producing the hoggets I saw at the mart last week making €135. They definitely earned any profit there was in it.

I think most store finishers have some sort of forage crop for them?

paddysdream

Friend of mine finishers store lambs most years.Prob. 300 to 400 or so.
Runs them on grass(cattle grazing during the summer)but mainly stubbles.

Don't know the exact figures for each year but know this year as he told me when I drew the last of them to the mart 2 weeks ago.
He reckoned he made, on average ,25 euro clear per head including all costs but excluding a charge for the grass they were on.Thats dosing,haulage,meal,vet,mart fees plus meal.

Know he bought some of them last October (mainly ewe lambs but a few wether's) at 38 to 40 kgs paying 90 euro or so in the ring.
Got 140 or so for the last of them at 59 kgs 2 weeks ago.

Username John

AnFeirmeoir wrote: »

Never did it but one of the downsides i'd see is it adds work just at the worst time. If i had to worry about weiging / drafting and feeding hoggets separately and going to the mart/factory over the past 3 weeks i think i'd have cracked up.

It's easy say it now that lambing is over and we forget how crazy a month March is. Fair fks to anyone producing the hoggets I saw at the mart last week making €135. They definitely earned any profit there was in it.

I think most store finishers have some sort of forage crop for them?

Hi Feirmeoir,

Well - I am actually looking at this in the context of not lambing, and just running stores... It would be to reduce workload by cutting out lambing, whilst still 'farming', was where I was coming from...

Now - its easy to say it, to sell all the ewes almost all of which I have reared myself, is a different thing...

Username John

paddysdream wrote: »

Friend of mine finishers store lambs most years.Prob. 300 to 400 or so.
Runs them on grass(cattle grazing during the summer)but mainly stubbles.

Don't know the exact figures for each year but know this year as he told me when I drew the last of them to the mart 2 weeks ago.
He reckoned he made, on average ,25 euro clear per head including all costs but excluding a charge for the grass they were on.Thats dosing,haulage,meal,vet,mart fees plus meal.

Know he bought some of them last October (mainly ewe lambs but a few wether's) at 38 to 40 kgs paying 90 euro or so in the ring.
Got 140 or so for the last of them at 59 kgs 2 weeks ago.

90 seems dear - you're really taking a gamble on them at that price I would have said?

But like I say - I don't know mart prices, so maybe buying at 70 is just not possible...

paddysdream

Username John wrote: »

90 seems dear - you're really taking a gamble on them at that price I would have said?

But like I say - I don't know mart prices, so maybe buying at 70 is just not possible...

Lots of time to type today as stuck with sick kid(the 2 legged type) so;

He reckoned that after buying smaller(30 to 33 kg)lambs in previous years that the bigger lambs were a better bet.
Easier to get to butcher weight(55 to 60 kg's) which will give a better chance of a good return rather than aiming at factory finish.This of course depends if that trade is available locally and the price paid justify's it.
He only gives them a shake of meal from December until about 1 month before sale before ramping up the meal.

All this depends on having a good amount of stubble to run them on cheaply as they are never housed.Winter corn would rule this out as would having to close up lots of grass for cattle in the spring.

Will be doing a little job for him next week and will ask him his costs,prices etc.He has a pretty good grip on these as he is used to doing costings for tillage(his main enterprise).
Often heard him telling me how little things like mart fees or haulage can really take a good chunk out of the margin on store lamb finishing.

tomwaterford

Username John wrote: »

90 seems dear - you're really taking a gamble on them at that price I would have said?

But like I say - I don't know mart prices, so maybe buying at 70 is just not possible...

I know of a lad tat buys mayo hill?? store lambs delivered to yard for <e40 a head (how lad in mayo makes money I dunno)

he buys 3 - 400 and runs them over winter,
minimal work done & feeding and haylage with grass....sold most loads last year for e105+

but this must be said he suffers some horrendous deaths in region of 70 lambs

Lano Lynn

I'd say your figure for dosing/meds a bit low.
shearing improves thrive and reduces a lot of hastle.

if you are short on time sure is an option.but remember it don't work out so profitable every year but sure doesn't look like any future in early lamb.

land free all summer to take a light cut of hay/silage/reseeding/forage crop/graze heifers for our expanding dairy brethern.

on a linked topic if you had 22-23 kg ewe hoggets making e130 today would ye kill em and do some of the above r keep em on for the breeding trade?

Sheep breeder

On the ewe hogget take the money now instead of waiting for the bird in the bush if they are only 46kg now won't be big enough for breeding season and will be hard trade like last year a lot of people exiting sheep.
The store hogget is like Russian roulette can go up but when they drop its like a ton of bricks,the key is the type of store you buy, why buy Mayo sheep to die,
A friend fattens 700 to 800 in the winter he buys one type of lamb at a price and will not go above his value when buying and runs on stubbles and then rape and ad-lib on hoppers and kills every week at a weight to the factory weight limit and will not let over weight or fat, great man to pick lambs for the factory and the kill sheet shows this.

tomwaterford

Sheep breeder wrote: »

On the ewe hogget take the money now instead of waiting for the bird in the bush if they are only 46kg now won't be big enough for breeding season and will be hard trade like last year a lot of people exiting sheep.
The store hogget is like Russian roulette can go up but when they drop its like a ton of bricks,the key is the type of store you buy, why buy Mayo sheep to die,
A friend fattens 700 to 800 in the winter he buys one type of lamb at a price and will not go above his value when buying and runs on stubbles and then rape and ad-lib on hoppers and kills every week at a weight to the factory weight limit and will not let over weight or fat, great man to pick lambs for the factory and the kill sheet shows this.

what type of lambs if you don't mind asking

the chap with the mayo lambs....he doesn't do much work with them...he's an oul lad around 80something
he do be using them to clean up paddocks around the place...he have big farm 800+acres a lot of it rough and unsuitable for cattle/horses

WellKiiid??

What would the time frame be for this? Like what month would you buy them and what month would you kill them? And i presume this would only be a seasonal thing?

tomwaterford

WellKiiid?? wrote: »

What would the time frame be for this? Like what month would you buy them and what month would you kill them? And i presume this would only be a seasonal thing?

id imagine buy at fall of year as sheep coming in off hill and lambs being sold for stores
to be sold around now (that's the way I seen it being done)

WellKiiid??

tomwaterford wrote: »

id imagine buy at fall of year as sheep coming in off hill and lambs being sold for stores
to be sold around now (that's the way I seen it being done)

Dont know much about sheep myself but i thought sheep only lamb in February/March! How would you get lambs that would be weaned and heavy enough for to be short keep? Would they have been from ewes that were sponged and lambed in October/November??

tomwaterford

WellKiiid?? wrote: »

Dont know much about sheep myself but i thought sheep only lamb in February/March! How would you get lambs that would be weaned and heavy enough for to be short keep? Would they have been from ewes that were sponged and lambed in October/November??

I think the mauntain breeds lamb in april time....they would usally put on weights fairly quickly coming from mountain to lowland grass I would imagine

Username John

paddysdream wrote: »

Lots of time to type today as stuck with sick kid(the 2 legged type) so;

He reckoned that after buying smaller(30 to 33 kg)lambs in previous years that the bigger lambs were a better bet.
Easier to get to butcher weight(55 to 60 kg's) which will give a better chance of a good return rather than aiming at factory finish.This of course depends if that trade is available locally and the price paid justify's it.
He only gives them a shake of meal from December until about 1 month before sale before ramping up the meal.

All this depends on having a good amount of stubble to run them on cheaply as they are never housed.Winter corn would rule this out as would having to close up lots of grass for cattle in the spring.

Will be doing a little job for him next week and will ask him his costs,prices etc.He has a pretty good grip on these as he is used to doing costings for tillage(his main enterprise).
Often heard him telling me how little things like mart fees or haulage can really take a good chunk out of the margin on store lamb finishing.

If you could find out a few more numbers Paddy - that would be excellent. I would be very appreciative.

MayoAreMagic

tomwaterford wrote: »

I think the mauntain breeds lamb in april time....they would usally put on weights fairly quickly coming from mountain to lowland grass I would imagine

Yes that is right tom. That is the type of system we use here. Just started lambing in the last week in my area. Generally, mayo lambs will come down off the mountain, the ones fit enough will go to the factory and the others will be sold as stores to lowland farmers or guys who will then feed them inside. I sell a gang every year myself. If you can source good quality mayo stores then there is definately money to be made in them.

Your friend does seem to have a very high number of losses. Is the guy delivering to him doing the buying on his behalf? I get the impression he is buying 'big and small' i.e. all the small lambs that would struggle to live out along with the ones he is after. He would be better off leaving the small ones (that are dying anyway and are just hassle) and paying a few pound more for just the bigger ones.

AnFeirmeoir

interesting article for this topic. A bit out of date but still applies.
http://www.teagasc.ie/publications/2011/1814/FinishingStoreLambsDuringWinter.pdf

tomwaterford

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Yes that is right tom. That is the type of system we use here. Just started lambing in the last week in my area. Generally, mayo lambs will come down off the mountain, the ones fit enough will go to the factory and the others will be sold as stores to lowland farmers or guys who will then feed them inside. I sell a gang every year myself. If you can source good quality mayo stores then there is definately money to be made in them.

Your friend does seem to have a very high number of losses. Is the guy delivering to him doing the buying on his behalf? I get the impression he is buying 'big and small' i.e. all the small lambs that would struggle to live out along with the ones he is after. He would be better off leaving the small ones (that are dying anyway and are just hassle) and paying a few pound more for just the bigger ones.

ya....there a lad buys them in maam cross mart?? I think that's the name anyway

he buys just ram lambs supposedly...though have seen young lambs wandering the place:rolleyes:
I know the chap works there a few days a month...he has big and small...shears them very late like November time...I think this is what leads to the deaths myself dying of cold a lot of them!!

I think there is good money to made from them..even feeding them on in sheds...if they live atal over the winter they should come into money IMO

Conmaicne Mara

tomwaterford wrote: »

ya....there a lad buys them in maam cross mart?? I think that's the name anyway

he buys just ram lambs supposedly...though have seen young lambs wandering the place:rolleyes:
I know the chap works there a few days a month...he has big and small...shears them very late like November time...I think this is what leads to the deaths myself dying of cold a lot of them!!

I think there is good money to made from them..even feeding them on in sheds...if they live atal over the winter they should come into money IMO

That's the mart I do my selling in.

I know a lad who had some fine wether lambs for sale there last year :pac:

Do you know the name of the fella doing the buying? PM if ya want, I might know him. Reckon I could make an educated guess.

MayoAreMagic

Way too late to be shearing them. It should be done by early october, and even at that, leaving a good bit on them. He would be better not doing it at all rather than doing it in November.

Long spin from maam cross to waterford! Is there much of a market for them down there? Most I know of go to places like meath, donegal or the midland counties.

tomwaterford

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

That's the mart I do my selling in.

I know a lad who had some fine wether lambs for sale there last year :pac:

Do you know the name of the fella doing the buying? PM if ya want, I might know him. Reckon I could make an educated guess.

that now I wouldn't know...jus seen them coming off his lorry...around 200 at a time...they were in dog compartment an all....much more they'd have been in the cab:pac:
I mainly know chap working in with your man at the sheep....he have a lot of horses as well (fella that gets the sheep in)

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Way too late to be shearing them. It should be done by early october, and even at that, leaving a good bit on them. He would be better not doing it at all rather than doing it in November.

Long spin from maam cross to waterford! Is there much of a market for them down there? Most I know of go to places like meath, donegal or the midland counties.

ya...he leaves them v.late.....I dunno would there be much of a market...we've plenty of mountains down here:pac::pac:

Waterford is far from the vast tracts of good land people imagine it to be (alright its not as bad as some of the west)

Sheep breeder

The biggest problem with the horned lamb is to get them to eat meal some will die rather than eat it, and hard to finish unless they eat meal.
The chap near me buy 36 kg upwards store and only ewe lambs and wether and as soon as buy he checks every lamb and if a ram lamb he will not take for love or money, and only clean back ended lamb, as he reckons a dirty lambs is that way for a reason and as a result less performance, he has a serious like for a char, texel and Suffolk lamb and will only his type and not a poorer cheap version of what he knows to make money.

MayoAreMagic

Really? The only time I have seen issues with horn lambs eating meal was when they were started on nuts as opposed to the ration type feed, and even then it was only a couple of them. Most of them will eat ration after a day or two, in fact now that I think of it, I've never had a lamb that wouldnt eat ration. They would graduate onto the nuts easy enough after that. I suppose it is just practice with them.

Conmaicne Mara

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Really? The only time I have seen issues with horn lambs eating meal was when they were started on nuts as opposed to the ration type feed, and even then it was only a couple of them. Most of them will eat ration after a day or two, in fact now that I think of it, I've never had a lamb that wouldnt eat ration. They would graduate onto the nuts easy enough after that. I suppose it is just practice with them.

No problems with them eating meal or nuts here.

Sheep breeder

Yes when they have nothing else, but wnen they are on good grass or in door finishing different story they will die at times rather than eat,like the Mayo footballers when the cross the Shannon they get the head staggers, only joking

AnFeirmeoir

Sheep breeder wrote: »

Yes when they have nothing else, but wnen they are on good grass or in door finishing different story they will die at times rather than eat,like the Mayo footballers when the cross the Shannon they get the head staggers, only joking

Never a bad time to stick it to mayo football

MayoAreMagic

More fool you for buying them in September

Green farmer

Without knowing very much about store lambs, could you stick them into a field and feed them on good quality silage ? Would that be enough for them or would have to give them a lot of meal as well ?ive found it hard to get animals to thrive over winter. My only experience is with ewes, where the aim is to maintain condition.

tomwaterford

Green farmer wrote: »

Without knowing very much about store lambs, could you stick them into a field and feed them on good quality silage ? Would that be enough for them or would have to give them a lot of meal as well ?ive found it hard to get animals to thrive over winter. My only experience is with ewes, where the aim is to maintain condition.

To finish any animal over winter you will need meal IMO
esp sheep as the wet knocks hell out of them...ideally you should have them if it was me...wther they ever pay for the shed is another thing:(

why put feed into them if they have to convert half it to heat just to stay warm/keep off pneumonia

Green farmer

Sounds like you'd have to have your homework done and a good setup in place before attempting stores so.sheep sometimes tend not to do well in sheds.their much happier outdoors

AnFeirmeoir

I know some of my hoggets it's look pretty crap around feb . A lot of these store lambs are tail Enders to start with so they might need that extra bit of feed . I wonder would it work financially to keep them on grass/silage till January the. House and feed conc for 6 weeks or so ?

Green farmer

AnFeirmeoir wrote: »

I know some of my hoggets it's look pretty crap around feb . A lot of these store lambs are tail Enders to start with so they might need that extra bit of feed . I wonder would it work financially to keep them on grass/silage till January the. House and feed conc for 6 weeks or so ?

I'm the same, had a few runts stayed around all winter and looked crap. It's only in the last week or so that their thriving now the grass is here.