new ICBF Proofs

patsy_mccabe

The other side to it is, it will seriously narrow the gene pool. Not good to have a small number of bulls heavily used just because they have high star ratings.

mikeoh

on the ICBF bull search some of my animals have a green banner saying "genotype included" and more who were also sampled don't, does this mean these ones are not updated ........................in fairness there isn't shape or make to it.....how can you take this serious ...when will the academics realise that even though they maybe delighted with their figures and clapping each other on the backs that there isn't a farmer in the country thinks this BDGP is one bit accurate or practical

GiantPencil

Next release is this Wednesday. Is everyone expecting a big swing in the numbers again?

bogman_bass

Calving proofs are the most likely ones to swing in the May proof run

tanko

APZ is always the first one i check to see whether he's a one star or a five star.

GiantPencil

Don't think he'll drop significantly. I read that a few people on this forum had issues with his daughters calving  He's 14.8% CD for his daughters at 96% reliability so it can't swing that much anymore......you'd assume anyway!

Mooooo

bogman_bass wrote: »

Calving proofs are the most likely ones to swing in the May proof run

You'd think given calving difficulty is a fairly heritable trait, I think, that the performance of the animals sire/ dam etc would have calving difficulty a bit more accurate?

bogman_bass

Mooooo wrote: »

You'd think given calving difficulty is a fairly heritable trait, I think, that the performance of the animals sire/ dam etc would have calving difficulty a bit more accurate?

One of the least reliable traits to measure genomically.

but my point is that you get a lot of calving data between the Febuary and May proofs. Not that many weanlings are going through the sales ring as in the autumn. And dairy heifers probably only have one or 2 recordings

patsy_mccabe

Ya should have good calving reliability figures now for the likes of Tomschoice Ironside and Tomschoice Imperial, new NCBC bulls but used a lot last year.

patsy_mccabe

Bellview

Just had a quick look at my bunch. In my calves the two greatest weeds in place are my top rated females in yard..both off kya..when I used straw I was hoping for a bull..but nature didn't do me any favours

blue5000

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

So anyway, another 3 posts. Is that right? :rolleyes:

Patsy not are only are you good at the maths, you're good at the old memes as well:D

Had a quick look at mine there, aubrac bull is down 6 points and angus bull down 3 points for maternal, terminal aubrac is +2 angus -3.

croot

More stupid inconsistencies on mine.

The worst example is a weanling heifer that hasn't been genotyped. Mother is up 10, sire is up 3. She is down 20.......

Another Dam up 1, sire down 2, heifer down 19. Not genotyped.

And for that reason I'm out .......... until the next run.

blue5000

I'm having problems printing my herd report. I can print it, but it's too small to read. Does anyone know how to print it in a larger, legibile format. I want to use it in the yard for sorting heifers without having a laptop in the yard.

Copy and paste won't work, it seems icbf have it set up at 111%, to fit a page but I need it around 130-150%. Any IT specialists/good hackers on here?

EDIT Got it sorted by downloading it as an excel file instead of a PDF! Only problem now is some gobsh1te put in the check digit with the jumbo tag number, last year's calves only. So now they are out of sequence.

squinn2912

towzer2010 wrote: »

onyerbikepat wrote: »

I see that.
I see that the limousin bull CASTLEVIEW GRINGO ET (GWO) is 6.1% (85% Rel) for calving for 250 calvings. That's not bad considering he is by Vantastic.
I might be using him this year.:cool: He's a fine looking bull.

You wont be sorry. I have a few class calves off him and am using him again this year plus they are the quietest Lims I've ever had.

How did those calves work out? Thinking of buying a GWO son for a stock bull to run with commercial herd.

Future Farmer

squinn2912 wrote: »

How did those calves work out? Thinking of buying a GWO son for a stock bull to run with commercial herd.

Do you finish yourself or sell as weanlings, GWO & ADX amongst the best LM for feed efficiency with is a nice plus to have!

squinn2912

Occasionally we sell as weanlings but mainly as forward stores if bullocks (around 20-24 mths) and a bit younger for heifers (16-20 mths) and then we select most suitable heifers for replacements, a mixture from our stock bulls and AI. Haven't used either of these bulls before but ADX looks very poor for replacement but yes good for terminal. We used Gazelle before and found him good enough.
Ideally we'd like a bull that would do it all - weanling, finisher and replacement. That's not easy found.

Future Farmer

squinn2912 wrote: »

Occasionally we sell as weanlings but mainly as forward stores if bullocks (around 20-24 mths) and a bit younger for heifers (16-20 mths) and then we select most suitable heifers for replacements, a mixture from our stock bulls and AI. Haven't used either of these bulls before but ADX looks very poor for replacement but yes good for terminal. We used Gazelle before and found him good enough.
Ideally we'd like a bull that would do it all - weanling, finisher and replacement. That's not easy found.

But your always going to lose out then to a point no? Only keep replacements off of your best cows no?

I would only us ZAG on maidens, there are superior bulls available for cows, lads are just index chasing.

OKH, Doudou & XGL - Replacement/Balanced
GWO, ADX, LM2116, YHW, MBP - Terminal (have seen some class Cameos round lately)

squinn2912

Of course - there's a trade off somewhere. The best cows if dates work out and they're close to the yard then hold in calf to AI. After that they go with the bulls and still can use their heifers for replacements but not as straight forward. We AI maiden heifers at least once and that in turn provides links to both the best cows and suitable maternal AI sires - all depending on them holding.
What do you mean by index chasing?

tanko

ZAG has a high replacement index eurostar figure but the bulls with high replacement index figures aren't always the best bulls to breed replacements off.

squinn2912

What would you go by other than that though?

tanko

squinn2912 wrote: »

What would you go by other than that though?

Eurostar figures are obsessed with rewarding easy calving bulls, most bulls with a calving difficulty over 7% arent going to get many stars on either index.
Calving difficulty is important but you also need to look at the pedigree of the bull, docility, conformation, milk, carcase weight, fertility etc.

If i was you i'd be looking for an out and out terminal bull for the cows and Ai the heifers and best cows with bulls to produce replacements.

Future Farmer

squinn2912 wrote: »

What would you go by other than that though?

Wouldn't want to only rely on Index.....

1. Pedigree
2. Index (& index reliability) (own country index too if applicable)
3. Own opinion (based on stock seen etc.)
4. Breeding advisor
5. Linear type

squinn2912

Thanks. 
My own thinking is similar one concern is about repeats - it can be very difficult to get heifers to hold to AI. The last two years we've had very poor results. Used a programme this year so we'll see how that goes but they were all sent to the bull afterwards so we'll know how that works out in the new year.
AI is the way to go for replacements and you can make adaptations as you go along. I suppose there is always the safety net of your own bull even if he is more terminal as the cows' performance with influence too.

tanko

squinn2912 wrote: »

Thanks. 
My own thinking is similar one concern is about repeats - it can be very difficult to get heifers to hold to AI. The last two years we've had very poor results. Used a programme this year so we'll see how that goes but they were all sent to the bull afterwards so we'll know how that works out in the new year.
AI is the way to go for replacements and you can make adaptations as you go along. I suppose there is always the safety net of your own bull even if he is more terminal as the cows' performance with influence too.

Heifers should be the most fertile, cleanest and infection free animals you have and the easiest ones to get incalf to Ai if done at the correct time.
Is it hard to find them bulling and does your Ai technician know what he's doing?

squinn2912

Our heifers should tick all of those boxes we select as we've done for years now. One issue could be that we're well into Lim breed by now but anecdotally many of those that came back were SIM or AA so should have cross breed fertility ok.
Finding them bulling can be difficult but during the season they are checked at least twice per day for 15-20 mins. The AI technician has been serving us for a while and I'd be confident enough in him. You can never be totally happy but I don't feel that's the problem. Heifers go out to the bull and he is used as a sweeper/stock bull as a way to try to guarantee they will hold. Heifers are always well dosed and over the last two years we've been giving them a bolus too. I don't think you can do much more.
I'm maybe painting an inaccurate picture here. Repeats haven't been a torture for us or anything, just a small issue that we've been happily able to resolve by virtue of having all-purpose bulls. I have raised this issue in terms of changing the bull. A terminal sire is fine but if you can't let him into the same parish as a heifer or small cow then that's a difficulty. Many heifers won't hold first time no matter what you do so to avoid running away on late I'd like to be able to leave them with the bull

patsy_mccabe

tanko wrote: »

Eurostar figures are obsessed with rewarding easy calving bulls, most bulls with a calving difficulty over 7% arent going to get many stars on either index.
Calving difficulty is important but you also need to look at the pedigree of the bull, docility, conformation, milk, carcase weight, fertility etc.

If i was you i'd be looking for an out and out terminal bull for the cows and Ai the heifers and best cows with bulls to produce replacements.

Only 16% of the Replacement Index goes on calving. Fertility is much higher weighted at 23%.



https://www.icbf.com/wp/?p=3811

squinn2912

I wonder about that though it seems as though it should be much more of a priority. When I think of what I want no1 is a live calf that will be up quickly and won't bust the cow.
Slowly getting the hang on this system though - only ever had our own stock bulls and allowed the AI man to do most of the picking. Not really the way forward. 
Looking at the breakdown it seems to allow for a lot of loopholes. You could have 5* replacement with no milk and as wild as a March hare, totally unsuitable. Is this me finally understanding the idea of index chasing?

patsy_mccabe

squinn2912 wrote: »

I wonder about that though it seems as though it should be much more of a priority. When I think of what I want no1 is a live calf that will be up quickly and won't bust the cow.
Slowly getting the hang on this system though - only ever had our own stock bulls and allowed the AI man to do most of the picking. Not really the way forward.
Looking at the breakdown it seems to allow for a lot of loopholes. You could have 5* replacement with no milk and as wild as a March hare, totally unsuitable. Is this me finally understanding the idea of index chasing?

That's it in a hutshell. Heifers are being sold in marts with 5 stars coming up on the display. No idea from that what way they are for milk or docility. Serious flaw in the system. Far better to look at the individual figures and match the bull to the cow, if using AI that is.

squinn2912

That's a disaster in a well meaning system but not fully thought through. Men told me about their best animals on one/two stars and I can see how that happens.
It makes it a bit more tricky picking a stock bull too.