new ICBF Proofs

Future Farmer

squinn2912 wrote: »

That's a disaster in a well meaning system but not fully thought through. Men told me about their best animals on one/two stars and I can see how that happens.
It makes it a bit more tricky picking a stock bull too.

Think that is probably largely too as men rate their best animals as the best terminal performers...

Why not put patches on all of your heifers pre-breeding to make sure they are all cycling, 75cent a head, easy done. When you are AIing them once and they are synchronized, to make it as cheap as possible you should really get the repeat, how many will the bull serve in a day if only 50% hold to the first serve, number dependent. No?

squinn2912

Hmm well they do to an extent but often men will talk about the cow that rears the best calf and try to select heifers from her to do a similar job.
Yea the patches are a simple way to overcome problems. We've just dabbled in synchronizing so I'm not too sure yet if I'm a fan. I have my misgivings and think that a good bull can be the best way to go about it for cost and labour.

GiantPencil

Christmas comes tomorrow lads!!

wiggy123

new proofs out--- the excitement

patsy_mccabe

I don't see them.

wiggy123

early yet..... say afternoon

tanko

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I don't see them.

They're updated now

Farmer Dan

Can someone please explain to me that if a cow was genotyped 4 star in May how can she be 3 star now?
Heifers I kept & are on calf were 4 & 5 & now some are gone down to 2 star. Very hard to meet targets with things changing so much.

wiggy123

all the press of a button.... which is not good..for the suckler industry

wiggy123

mine much the same-- little change, 1 cow actually went from 1 star to 2 star... so not too bad--joys having angus pedigree herd

High bike

Where can they be viewed on icbf????

GiantPencil

Saw that ZAG is now negative for milk at -.5kgs with just over 20000 calves on the ground as well.

tanko

High bike wrote: »

Where can they be viewed on icbf????

If you're signed up to herdplus, log in and look at beef eurostar in profiles.

If you're not in herdplus you can put the animals tag number in the animal search box on the icbf homepage.
Only animals in BDGP herds can be viewed here i think.

patsy_mccabe

Any big movers or shakers? My 2 best PBR lim cows here are both still 5 Star for both terminal and maternal so happy out.

Bellview

There still appears to be a strong bias against stock bulls. Last bull I had has sired around 100 calves..and still on the go but his sire in ai dropped 6 for replacement and the stock bull dropped 20..ironically ironically have his daughters and they are milking away nicely. Scheme is still a joke but just will draw the cash and if I fail to meet criteria in year 6 they can come chasing all they want for cash return

GiantPencil

Bellview wrote: »

There still appears to be a strong bias against stock bulls. Last bull I had has sired around 100 calves..and still on the go but his sire in ai dropped 6 for replacement and the stock bull dropped 20..ironically ironically have his daughters and they are milking away nicely.  Scheme is still a joke but just will draw the cash and if I fail to meet criteria in year 6 they can come chasing all they want for cash return

I've seen the opposite with a bull I sold, his sire is about 150 for replacement and the stock bull is over 200 now with 100+ calves on the ground. Depends on what info is being logged to the animal I suppose. I think the days of huge movements in figures are slowly going away with each new release. Come 5 years time the data should be accurately for the most reflecting the animal I think

GiantPencil

GiantPencil wrote: »

Bellview wrote: »

There still appears to be a strong bias against stock bulls. Last bull I had has sired around 100 calves..and still on the go but his sire in ai dropped 6 for replacement and the stock bull dropped 20..ironically ironically have his daughters and they are milking away nicely.  Scheme is still a joke but just will draw the cash and if I fail to meet criteria in year 6 they can come chasing all they want for cash return

I've seen the opposite with a bull I sold, his sire is about 150 for replacement and the stock bull is over 200 now with 100+ calves on the ground. Depends on what info is being logged to the animal I suppose. I think the days of huge movements in figures are slowly going away with each new release. Come 5 years time the data should be accurately for the most reflecting the animal I think

Spoke too soon. Auchorachan Wizard (SI4030) jumped from 75 replacement index at 48% to 184 at 53% which is the 4th highest on the active bull list. The mind boggles....

blue5000

Bellview wrote: »

There still appears to be a strong bias against stock bulls. Last bull I had has sired around 100 calves..and still on the go but his sire in ai dropped 6 for replacement and the stock bull dropped 20..ironically have his daughters and they are milking away nicely. Scheme is still a joke but just will draw the cash and if I fail to meet criteria in year 6 they can come chasing all they want for cash return

Mine are ok, hovering up and down a few points each time, but I'm not breeding stock bulls, just buying them. Aubrac bull is a couple of maternal points better than his sire, and an old angus stock bull I had is about 20 points better than his ai sire. If you're in trouble in year 6 I might have a few commercial cattle to spare;) Still trying to build numbers here for now though.

I can see where you are getting caught though, dairy farmers are the pedigree angus breeders' bread and butter, the calves are barely recorded properly. I think the aa bulls with more 'power' might be going to suckler herds and getting better stats there. But the market for these is limited, I've only bought 2 angus bulls in 10 years, wheras a dairy farmer might buy a 'plain' angus bull every year and let them off after 1 season.

wiggy123

Its all about what farmers input in for a Stock bull.. re calves been born from it--if they lie(bend the truth)--re all calves, born easily-vigorous-quiet, etc.. the daughters calf correctly 100%... that will give the stock a good star rating
So its ICBF relying on folk been honest when inputting information in to them.

whelan2

wiggy123 wrote: »

Its all about what farmers input in for a Stock bull.. re calves been born from it--if they lie(bend the truth)--re all calves, born easily-vigorous-quiet, etc.. the daughters calf correctly 100%... that will give the stock a good star rating
So its ICBF relying on folk been honest when inputting information in to them.

wHAT ABOUT THE FARMER WHO HAS A FEW BULLS RUNNING WITH THEIR COWS? tHEY ARE NOT GOING TO KNOW WHO THE SIRE IS 100% (sorry about caps) so figures wont be reliable

patsy_mccabe

I see OKH has dropped from 4 stars to one star within breed for Terminal even though that drop is only €23.

wiggy123

agree whelan2, that's the problem also.. genomic testing should resolve that though

to me, the system is a good idea-its the policing of it + the rules, computer programmes which they use, etc...

Bellview

blue5000 wrote:

I can see where you are getting caught though, dairy farmers are the pedigree angus breeders' bread and butter, the calves are barely recorded properly. I think the aa bulls with more 'power' might be going to suckler herds and getting better stats there. But the market for these is limited, I've only bought 2 angus bulls in 10 years, wheras a dairy farmer might buy a 'plain' angus bull every year and let them off after 1 season.

Agreed ironically the sons of the same stock bull have bred up on 1000 calves now and these are the ones that are reporting...I have 2 sons of his registering over 50 calves a year.
I see the dairy scores getting air play due to unreliability
Good news for me is that my aim is more traditional angus rather than breeding for pedigree guys. ..although I have sold a few.
The piece I never understand though is the ai in bloodline moves one way and the stock bull is not moving parallel

Bellview

wiggy123 wrote:

to me, the system is a good idea-its the policing of it + the rules, computer programmes which they use, etc...

My question though is how do icbf know from the gene that the bull is ie 120..this is piece of science I would like to understand. ..icbf will tell you its a percentage this percentage that but is there a chromosome that says this bull breeds quiet cattle that milk..or is he test a validation of parentage and little else

The man in red and black

Bellview wrote: »

Agreed ironically the sons of the same stock bull have bred up on 1000 calves now and these are the ones that are reporting...I have 2 sons of his registering over 50 calves a year.
I see the dairy scores getting air play due to unreliability
Good news for me is that my aim is more traditional angus rather than breeding for pedigree guys. ..although I have sold a few.
The piece I never understand though is the ai in bloodline moves one way and the stock bull is not moving parallel

You can speed up the increase in reliability for stock bulls by using AI on some of the cows along with him bulling the rest. Weigh the calves at birth and at weaning and it will give great comparison of how his offspring do in a similar situation compared with highly reliable AI bulls. Also increases reliability alot if bulls are used across several herds. Obviously this is easier for AI bulls. The more (accurate) data the better and the quicker the reliability percentages will increase and so your bulls ratings will actually be more accurate to what you are seeing on farm.

patsy_mccabe

You know, I was thinking about this. If most breeders will be trying to get high stars on their bulls, that range in € values between say, the top 20% and the bottom 20% will get narrower and narrower. This will mean even greater jumps across the stars going forward. Once the poor rated bulls are no longer used, that range gets smaller and smaller between the 'good' and 'bad' bulls.
It's a bit like cross-breeding, the best gain will be in the first few years and dwindle away after that.

Bellview

The man in red and black wrote:

You can speed up the increase in reliability for stock bulls by using AI on some of the cows along with him bulling the rest. Weigh the calves at birth and at weaning and it will give great comparison of how his offspring do in a similar situation compared with highly reliable AI bulls. Also increases reliability alot if bulls are used across several herds. Obviously this is easier for AI bulls. The more (accurate) data the better and the quicker the reliability percentages will increase and so your bulls ratings will actually be more accurate to what you are seeing on farm.

Thanks but I already do this and have used enough to benchmark the calves. I have used some 5 star ai bulls..and the stock bulls are more docile and better quality than the ai as they all get same treatment

Bellview

patsy_mccabe wrote:

You know, I was thinking about this. If most breeders will be trying to get high stars on their bulls, that range in € values between say, the top 20% and the bottom 20% will get narrower and narrower. This will mean even greater jumps across the stars going forward. Once the poor rated bulls are no longer used, that range gets smaller and smaller between the 'good' and 'bad' bulls. It's a bit like cross-breeding, the best gain will be in the first few years and dwindle away after that.

Once the stars are accurate...I see there is a lot of noise coming from dairy side..where dairy has a more tangible measure than beef

Hard Knocks

Bellview wrote: »

Once the stars are accurate...I see there is a lot of noise coming from dairy side..where dairy has a more tangible measure than beef

Don't know ....
I'd noticed on the excel, bulls who's progeny are making €3+/kg are low rated while bulls whose progeny preform less have higher terminal value.
My fear is bulls & straws are being purchased based on stars which could mean the suckler progeny will not be of suitable for shipping

patsy_mccabe

Hard Knocks wrote: »

Don't know ....
I'd noticed on the excel, bulls who's progeny are making €3+/kg are low rated while bulls whose progeny preform less have higher terminal value.
My fear is bulls & straws are being purchased based on stars which could mean the suckler progeny will not be of suitable for shipping

The stars are based on profit not the selling price of the weanlings. High priced weanlings are not always the most profitable.