new ICBF Proofs

Bellview · 05-09-2018 1:15pm

patsy_mccabe wrote:

It's the Genomic testing that I don't understand. When you genomic test an animal, there is feck all change in their figures. If there was so much to learn about the animal from genomics, why aren't the changes bigger? It's as if the whole project is still in 'work in prigress' mode and they have identified feck all genomic makers to date.

I agree as I have a lady that is genomic 4 now she is 2 and all she did was have one calf...

tanko · 05-09-2018 2:25pm

GiantPencil wrote: »

Anyone notice any big swings? Didn't see any big changes myself only that cows I had genotyped had their milk figures come closer to my expectations

OKH and Bivouac are up anyway.
Have a two year old GJB first calver here this year off a good milky CHX cow. She has no milk and terrible confirmation, dont know how her calf didnt starve to death, she ony has one ovary as well, wiil be out the gate shortly.

All genotyping seems to do is confirm the sire and dam of an animal.

wiggy123 · 05-09-2018 4:10pm

gjb is hard calving

Bellview · 05-09-2018 4:44pm

tanko wrote:

OKH and Bivouac are up anyway. Have a two year old GJB first calver here this year off a good milky CHX cow. She has no milk and terrible confirmation, dont know how her calf didnt starve to death, she ony has one ovary as well, wiil be out the gate shortly.

That would be rossiter. He has left a bad legacy but icbf stars loved him...and now folks are suffering in reality...I gad a few and they were bad yokes off cows that have bred well...they are hard to feed and flighty as hell

wiggy123 · 05-09-2018 5:04pm

have used him over the years numerous times on different females, none ever held to him.. maybe a god send for me

Bellview · 05-09-2018 5:25pm

wiggy123 wrote:

have used him over the years numerous times on different females, none ever held to him.. maybe a god send for me

Bad semen also as expensive...classic as lads ran after shiny toy..a few similar other out there

wiggy123 · 06-09-2018 10:58am

thought same... ah well-folk did use him, rarely used now though bellview

Simmental. · 06-09-2018 9:38pm

Kilbride Farm Escalop 13 has seen his terminal index drop by €46 going from a 4 star to a 2 star compared to this time last year. It would put you off using low reliability bulls. He has great milk figures as well but his calving difficulty might put allot off using him

patsy_mccabe · 06-09-2018 9:56pm

Hedge your bets with low reliability bulls. Use plenty of them and don't overuse any one bull. They should average out with half going up and half going down.

Simmental. · 06-09-2018 10:17pm

yeah I use a team of 10 bulls so it evens out.

furandfeather · 06-09-2018 10:57pm

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Hedge your bets with low reliability bulls. Use plenty of them and don't overuse any one bull. They should average out with half going up and half going down.

I would say even with high reliability bulls you need to hedge your bets. There's something fundamentally wrong with a grading system, when like in your own example above about the widlodge bull, he can go from 5star at 83% to one 1star at 91%. And there's countless other examples of the same. How anyone can have any faith in the system is beyond me

Simmental. · 06-09-2018 11:37pm

Once a bull has 95% reliability the figures wont change much but by that time they are old and wont be available for long. It does take time to get data on how a bull's progeny is breeding and that seems to cause the replacement figures to jump up and down. Hopefully the BDGP will allow the ICBF to improve a bull's reliability earlier.

Never wrestle with pigs · 06-09-2018 11:43pm

Simmental. wrote: »

Kilbride Farm Escalop 13 has seen his terminal index drop by €46 going from a 4 star to a 2 star compared to this time last year. It would put you off using low reliability bulls. He has great milk figures as well but his calving difficulty might put allot off using him

Feck. Iv a smashing pedigree escalop heifer due in December and her figures have crashed. Not going to be easy to sell a bull out of her. Wouldn't mind but she's a big long tank of a heifer. I'd love 20 of them.

Simmental. · 07-09-2018 10:26am

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

Feck. Iv a smashing pedigree escalop heifer due in December and her figures have crashed. Not going to be easy to sell a bull out of her. Wouldn't mind but she's a big long tank of a heifer. I'd love 20 of them.

How did you find him for calving?

Never wrestle with pigs · 07-09-2018 7:30pm

Simmental. wrote: »

How did you find him for calving?

I bought her in. Fella I bought her off used him a good bit on pedigrees and can't understand why his cd is so high. She looks like she should have a right good bit of room for calving. Big frame with shape and extremely quiet.

furandfeather · 07-09-2018 8:30pm

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

I bought her in. Fella I bought her off used him a good bit on pedigrees and can't understand why his cd is so high. She looks like she should have a right good bit of room for calving. Big frame with shape and extremely quiet.

I've never had a bit of trouble with him calving anyways including a couple of 26 month heifers

furandfeather · 07-09-2018 8:47pm

Simmental. wrote: »

Once a bull has 95% reliability the figures wont change much but by that time they are old and wont be available for long. It does take time to get data on how a bull's progeny is breeding and that seems to cause the replacement figures to jump up and down. Hopefully the BDGP will allow the ICBF to improve a bull's reliability earlier.

I appreciate all that,but how many Bulls have 95% reliability. As a predictive tool the star system is not fit for purpose imo. When you cant have reasonable faith in figures that have 83% reliability why even bother publishing stars for young bulls at pedigree sales, only to mislead farmers and make perfectly good bulls almost unsellable

patsy_mccabe · 07-09-2018 9:01pm

furandfeather wrote: »

I appreciate all that,but how many Bulls have 95% reliability. As a predictive tool the star system is not fit for purpose imo. When you cant have reasonable faith in figures that have 83% reliability why even bother publishing stars for young bulls at pedigree sales, only to mislead farmers and make perfectly good bulls almost unsellable

I think there is a lot of truth in that. In the example I gave for Wilodge Cerberus above, there's no reason why the opposite can't happen. Bulls that are 2 star could easily shoot up to 5 stars, but these bulls won't be sold for breeding if they are showing 2 stars in a catalogue.

Simmental. · 07-09-2018 9:20pm

Here is an article by ICBF explaining what happened to Wilodge Cerberus' stars.
In it they say 80% reliability is not very high which is ridiculous.

https://www.icbf.com/wp/?p=11302

Never wrestle with pigs · 07-09-2018 9:38pm

To many people are fixated with the replacement index I think. How many replacements do we need? Cerberus is still a savage good terminal bull with easy calving. I wouldn't mind having a few to sell.

Iv changed my bulls to terminal bulls for next year and I will ai a few for replacements. I've bought pedigree heifers with lower stars and savage breeding. I walked into the places and looked at what I liked first and asked about stars later. I think there is a shift in how important it is to people lately.

Don't get me wrong I'm a supporter of the icbf data base that can only get better with the more information fed into it. But I think we need to go back to breeding good quality. The marts are proof of that at the moment in this small recession at the moment.

charolais0153 · 07-09-2018 11:21pm

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

To many people are fixated with the replacement index I think. How many replacements do we need? Cerberus is still a savage good terminal bull with easy calving. I wouldn't mind having a few to sell.

Iv changed my bulls to terminal bulls for next year and I will ai a few for replacements. I've bought pedigree heifers with lower stars and savage breeding. I walked into the places and looked at what I liked first and asked about stars later. I think there is a shift in how important it is to people lately.

Don't get me wrong I'm a supporter of the icbf data base that can only get better with the more information fed into it. But I think we need to go back to breeding good quality. The marts are proof of that at the moment in this small recession at the moment.

I dont think icbf want you to have bad stock either. When you pick out the few heifers you like ,you buy the best star rated ones out of ones you like, i dont think icbf ever aaid to buy poor 5 star stock.

In mart last sat. One mans Ch bulls making 1100 and upwards and then this simmental bull calf came in and made 940. Not a bad price but there could easily have been a calf worth 100 more instead of him. Even though you can buy in diseaseabd all that,its not hard to pick up a few nice springers

patsy_mccabe · 08-09-2018 10:27am

The big issue with Cerberus is, he was sold as THE bull to breed females. His daughters were winning shows left, right and center. 1379 offspring listed in the herdbook. A lot of pissed off breeders around, I can tell ya.
I had one here and she was stone mad. Had to get rid of her. Twice she nearly killed me. Jumped a gate once without putting a foot on it, to get away from her. Had to load her with me up on a wall with a long stick (like them boys on the island of Terceira out in the Azures).

Sheep breeder · 08-09-2018 9:18pm

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

The big issue with Cerberus is, he was sold as THE bull to breed females. His daughters were winning shows left, right and center. 1379 offspring listed in the herdbook. A lot of pissed off breeders around, I can tell ya.
I had one here and she was stone mad. Had to get rid of her. Twice she nearly killed me. Jumped a gate once without putting a foot on it, to get away from her. Had to load her with me up on a wall with a long stick (like them boys on the island of Terceira out in the Azures).

To many people getting caught up in the fashion circles that go around about certain bulls and Ai stations pushing the next big thing with out any proofs. Look back a couple years ago you were not a limousin breeder unless you were using vantastic.

charolais0153 · 08-09-2018 9:53pm

Sheep breeder wrote: »

To many people getting caught up in the fashion circles that go around about certain bulls and Ai stations pushing the next big thing with out any proofs. Look back a couple years ago you were not a limousin breeder unless you were using vantastic.

Same thing now with ampertaine commander and the like.

charolais0153 · 09-09-2018 4:40pm

I see Doon Just The Job is gone up to 19.40% calving difficulty....i have a few cows that will be bawling this winter looking for silage!

Hard Knocks · 15-10-2018 10:52am

Notice the Stars have been updated
Bigger change to my herd then from the September proof

Bellview · 15-10-2018 10:56am

Hard Knocks wrote:

Notice the Stars have been updated Bigger change to my herd then from the September proof

Yeap the computer seemed to become a little more generous for my ladies as well . This is some lottery though

patsy_mccabe · 15-10-2018 11:26am

Any big movements with the AI bulls?

wiggy123 · 15-10-2018 12:18pm

is like the lottery @ times, these proofs.. mine rose + dropped a little.. like in 3 months! mad...

Bellview · 15-10-2018 12:47pm

patsy_mccabe wrote:

Any big movements with the AI bulls?

Will check over next few days. I checked a few and small movement...honestly I have lost interest in the whole stars thing but unfortunately it will cost us money.
I'm lucky current stock bull is high in stars and I will be holding some of his daughters so will qualify for the scheme...but I won't change some of my one star cows as they working away nicely and they will stay in the herd until their time is up

new ICBF Proofs

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