Manchester United Superthread 2014 Mod Warning post #2237

titan18

Irishcrx wrote: »

What we need is a good nobody signing...like Ronaldo when he signed, he was pretty much a nobody , do you remember the laugh every other club was having with him...'oh that pansy' ' jesus would you look at him falling over again' 'them stepovers will never work the ejet'.......

2 seasons later...

'Ohhhhhh ****'

Should sign this guy



He's got like 9 goals for Pacos de Ferreira in Portugal this year, including this



Definite quality. He'll run riot in the PL next year if we get him.

J. Marston

redbaron_99 wrote: »

If he's so good, why then did fergie drop him?

Chelsea, League Cup.

I don't know if he actually dropped him after that, to be honest. But I do remember him singling Nani out for criticism which he nearly never did.

Pro. F

redbaron_99 wrote: »

If he's so good, why then did fergie drop him?

Because Fergie was fallible.

J. Marston wrote: »

Chelsea, League Cup.

I don't know if he actually dropped him after that, to be honest. But I do remember him singling Nani out for criticism which he nearly never did.

He had stopped giving Nani regular games long before that. Definitely appears like Fergie never truly rated Nani very highly.

sea_monkey

My brother has been to a few matches and has gotten seats behind the dugout. He said the coaching staff had to constantly shout at nani to position him properly, tracking back or picking up men, whereas valencia didnt have to be told.

I like Nani and would love to see him get a good run. No reason not to now.

Mitch Connor

v3ttel wrote: »

I find it mind boggling to believe than any list of outs would include genuinely talented players and not the likes of Cleverley, Young & Valencia.

Indeed, if the squad was as I want it, it would be different, but that is how I see it going in the summer. Players that should stay will leave. Moyes will stay too, the useless git

kryogen

redbaron_99 wrote: »

If he's so good, why then did fergie drop him?

Wahey!

Didnt see that stupid argument rolled out in a while!

Lord TSC

redbaron_99 wrote: »

If he's so good, why then did fergie drop him?

The infallible Fergie who apparently left Moyes with a crock of a team and didn't know what he was doing with regards team building in recent years?

Liam O

sea_monkey wrote: »

My brother has been to a few matches and has gotten seats behind the dugout. He said the coaching staff had to constantly shout at nani to position him properly, tracking back or picking up men, whereas valencia didnt have to be told.

I like Nani and would love to see him get a good run. No reason not to now.

So why is Valencia so bad at picking up players despite being in these positions and contributing nothing in an attacking sense? Sounds like bollocks tbh.

RichFTW

Pro. F wrote: »

When I say consistent games I mean runs of consecutive games where he started. He got a few runs of games in his first season (07/08) and was productive as usual; mostly played in the cup games with very few consistent runs of games in his second season and his productivity tanked; then from the midpoint of his third season (09/10) he got consistent runs of games and produced goals and assists consistently for the next two and a half seasons.

He has not been given anything like consistent runs of games since then so you can't say that he hasn't been doing what he used to.

I'm not going back digging up stats of how many games Nani played in a row but when you play more than 30 in a season, that would indicate he had some sort of consistent run. If he was performing as he should, he would have been given a consistent run of games the last 2 seasons as well.

Pro. F wrote: »

You said that he goes through cycles of a few good games before getting dropped because of a bad attitude. Now you are talking about how he was only good for a few seasons. Already you have had to changed your argument as to how his inconsistency manifests.

I'm saying both actually, inconsistency over the years and inconsistency in individual seasons.

Pro. F wrote: »

Many opinions can be supported with evidence. Your opinion that Nani has an attitude problem because he could have been close to Ronaldo level and isn't is a nonsense. You are kidding yourself if you think that is a valid opinion to use in judgement of a player. That type of argument could be used to criticise the attitude of any player in the history of the game.

Opinions on someone's attitude usually come from observation, not evidence. He seemed to be disinterested more often than fired up for games. I never said the attitude problem came from not being close to Ronaldo's ability; although Nani thinking he was as good as Ronaldo did result in the arrogance I spoke of when Ronaldo left and Nani wasn't given the same praise/responsibilities.

sea_monkey

Liam O wrote: »

So why is Valencia so bad at picking up players despite being in these positions and contributing nothing in an attacking sense? Sounds like bollocks tbh.

Did I say anything about Valencias ability? Did I say what the coaching staff think of it? Did I say I heard it or did I say it was second hand news? Did I say that's why he has been left out?

I let the first post you quoted me on go where you decided to tell me how good Ronaldo was when all I said was I enjoyed watching Januzaj play.

UGH why am I annoyed!? you've made me annoyed. stop making me annoyed.

Pro. F

RichFTW wrote: »

I'm not going back digging up stats of how many games Nani played in a row but when you play more than 30 in a season, that would indicate he had some sort of consistent run.

No need to go digging through stats, it's all presented clearly on football-linups.com.

You might think that with 30 games (not 30 starts) in a season means that a player must have had good runs of consecutive starts but you are wrong. As you can see at the link: He got a few runs of games in his first season (07/08) and was productive as usual; mostly played in the cup games with very few consistent runs of games in his second season and his productivity tanked; then from the midpoint of his third season (09/10) he got consistent runs of games and produced goals and assists consistently for the next two and a half seasons.

RichFTW wrote: »

If he was performing as he should, he would have been given a consistent run of games the last 2 seasons as well.

Yes, because players never get injured and Fergie never made mistakes. Solid reasoning.

RichFTW wrote: »

I'm saying both actually, inconsistency over the years and inconsistency in individual seasons.

Opinions on someone's attitude usually come from observation, not evidence. He seemed to be disinterested more often than fired up for games. I never said the attitude problem came from not being close to Ronaldo's ability; although Nani thinking he was as good as Ronaldo did result in the arrogance I spoke of when Ronaldo left and Nani wasn't given the same praise/responsibilities.

Tell me when these cycles of a few good games, followed by bad ones and then dropped happened during his two and half seasons of regular football and consistent production then. I don't remember it happening during that period.

You said that Nani's supposed attitude problem held him back from realising his Ronaldo-like potential. It's a pointless theory to use to criticise a player because a variation of it could be used to criticise any player in history. Carry on believing it if you like, I say you are kidding yourself.

redbaron_99

kryogen wrote: »

Wahey!

Didnt see that stupid argument rolled out in a while!

I'm not exactly arguing. I know he has all the ability. Frustrates me though. Bad decision making on the pitch.

Liam O

sea_monkey wrote: »

Did I say anything about Valencias ability? Did I say what the coaching staff think of it? Did I say I heard it or did I say it was second hand news? Did I say that's why he has been left out?

I let the first post you quoted me on go where you decided to tell me how good Ronaldo was when all I said was I enjoyed watching Januzaj play.

UGH why am I annoyed!? you've made me annoyed. stop making me annoyed.

1. You mentioned Ronaldo when talking about Januzaj.

2. You used your brother's account to outline something that Valencia supposedly does better than Nani, unless comparing players in response to a post comparing the same players is now annoying I'd say calm down, it's not an attack on you.

redbaron_99

By the way, I find nani maddening at times, but would have him ahead of young and Valencia every time.

Also, a colleague of mine (we work in the sports industry) who has some links to numerous clubs in England including united said something very interesting to me this evening. Was getting a few tickets for the hull game. He was saying the word from inside the club is that there's deals for a three players in place
Already. Now that could be three 16 year olds for all I know. But the muppet inside is in riot!

I've prob invited a tonne of abuse for admitting that...

Deiseboy01

Liam O wrote: »

I'd agree in some fashion, Bayern dominated United with Kroos as their deep midfielder, no reason a solid player or even Fellaini can't play that role and have Kagawa or Mata in a similar role to what Gotse or whoever would switch to in the last game.

Fellaini cannot play that role.

kryogen

You have, but dont sweat it. No harm in voicing opinion

Y2KBOS86

sea_monkey wrote: »

Watching januzaj pre season gave me the same excitement as ronaldo when he played against us at sporting

Serious lack of pace though.

In a title challenging team does he have the skill set to play on the wing?

He can't play in the middle, Mata, Rooney, Kagawa are all way better and still youngish as well.

If yee get the likes of Kroos, Costa etc I don't know where he fits.

Y2KBOS86

Deiseboy01 wrote: »

Fellaini cannot play that role.

Agree

Need mobility in that role and tactical knowledge, Fellani has neither.

Best place for him, is upfront in the Niall Quinn role knocking down balls for Rooney.

Moyes will have to bite the bullet with him.

The_Kew_Tour

I'll say this for the last time.

Welbeck gets thrown out with the "he still young lad he will improve". He is 23.

Now we have a player who up to recently(not sure and doubt that is case now and cant be arsed to check) had scored most goals and assists in the team from midfield. A lad at 18 and we are saying he aint good enough.

Give...the...lad...a...break.

He is also in a team that's been total crap. He has the ability, just give him some time.

Others have done less and are much older and experienced.

redbaron_99

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I'll say this for the last time.

Welbeck gets thrown out with the "he still young lad he will improve". He is 23.

Now we have a player who up to recently(not sure and doubt that is case now and cant be arsed to check) had scored most goals and assists in the team from midfield. A lad at 18 and we are saying he aint good enough.

Give...the...lad...a...break.

He is also in a team that's been total crap. He has the ability, just give him some time.

Others have done less and are much older and experienced.

A lot would have written off Andy cole at that age. Actually many would written cole off after his first season at united. That should be a lesson to us all. It can take top players time to settle in. Cole missed some great chances early on ( not even mentioning THAT match) but went on to be a key player if or us in a time we were competing with the best teams in the world.

Y2KBOS86

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Welbeck gets thrown out with the "he still young lad he will improve". He is 23.

Not many are saying that anymore.

If someone like West Ham came in with a decent bid, most would accept it.

RichFTW

Pro. F wrote: »

No need to go digging through stats, it's all presented clearly on football-linups.com.

You might think that with 30 games (not 30 starts) in a season means that a player must have had good runs of consecutive starts but you are wrong. As you can see at the link: He got a few runs of games in his first season (07/08) and was productive as usual; mostly played in the cup games with very few consistent runs of games in his second season and his productivity tanked; then from the midpoint of his third season (09/10) he got consistent runs of games and produced goals and assists consistently for the next two and a half seasons.

He didn't start all of them but did have enough time to make an impact in most of the games. Granted it would have been easier for him to get a run going with consistent starts but game time was available for him. He would have got more starts if he impressed more when he was playing.

Pro. F wrote: »

Yes, because players never get injured and Fergie never made mistakes. Solid reasoning.

That wasn't my reasoning. Injuries didn't keep him out of the team, more so the fact that he had problems tracking back, wasn't producing it when he was playing and Fergie didn't think he was the best option available.

Pro. F wrote: »

Tell me when these cycles of a few good games, followed by bad ones and then dropped happened during his two and half seasons of regular football and consistent production then. I don't remember it happening during that period.

Because it didn't. We have established he had 2 good seasons. My cycle theory refers to the other 5 seasons.

Pro. F wrote: »

You said that Nani's supposed attitude problem held him back from realising his Ronaldo-like potential. It's a pointless theory to use to criticise a player because a variation of it could be used to criticise any player in history. Carry on believing it if you like, I say you are kidding yourself.

Exactly, his attitude held him back from realising his ability which wasn't far off Ronaldo. This theory can be used to criticise any player as it holds true. You can have all the ability in the world, but if you have a crap attitude, you will go no where.

Rayne Wooney

Matagawa will shine next season with our new and improved central midfield behind them






I was going to put Reus in but I'm not sure what jersey number he will take, likewise Kroos

Lord TSC

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Now we have a player who up to recently(not sure and doubt that is case now and cant be arsed to check) had scored most goals and assists in the team from midfield.

Joint 5th top goalscorer (Rooney, RVP, Welbeck, Hernandez ahead of him, joint with Val) with 4 goals in all competitions (Source: BBC). Just in the league, he's joint 4th with Hernandez. (Source: ESPN)

3rd with Assists (Rooney and Mata ahead of him; Source: ESPN) in the PL. Think about the same overall.

Says something that Mata and Januzaj, with their limited games this season, are ranked second and third in terms of assists this season in the league...

Rayne Wooney

Deiseboy01 wrote: »

Fellaini cannot play that role.

Fellaini's best seasons for Everton were in that role and he plays it more often than not for the flavour of the year Belgium national team.

It's a statement of someone who hasn't watched Fellaini at all I think

The_Kew_Tour

redbaron_99 wrote: »

A lot would have written off Andy cole at that age. Actually many would written cole off after his first season at united. That should be a lesson to us all. It can take top players time to settle in. Cole missed some great chances early on ( not even mentioning THAT match) but went on to be a key player if or us in a time we were competing with the best teams in the world.

Cole was still getting a lot of assists even in his poor spell. I'll get few stats up if can, but even in 95/96 im almot certain he had 2nd highest at club.

I'll see if can get some. Taking away penos and Cole's goals per game ratio was better then Shearer.

Lord TSC

Hey, why don't we have a match this weekend? Due to face Hull or someone and moved cause of FA Cup?

The_Kew_Tour

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Hey, why don't we have a match this weekend? Due to face Hull or someone and moved cause of FA Cup?

I could be wrong, but I heard thats the reason.

In a way im kinda glad. I want season over if honest.

The_Kew_Tour

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Joint 5th top goalscorer (Rooney, RVP, Welbeck, Hernandez ahead of him, joint with Val) with 4 goals in all competitions (Source: BBC). Just in the league, he's joint 4th with Hernandez. (Source: ESPN)

3rd with Assists (Rooney and Mata ahead of him; Source: ESPN) in the PL. Think about the same overall.

Says something that Mata and Januzaj, with their limited games this season, are ranked second and third in terms of assists this season in the league...

Cheers for that. Says a lot in a way, sadly.

redbaron_99

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Hey, why don't we have a match this weekend? Due to face Hull or someone and moved cause of FA Cup?

Hull are in the cup. Game moved to next month. Originally it was moved to middle of next week. Then moved again. I don't want to see the season end. I'm quite excited to see how things are going in the league last few games.

redbaron_99

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Cole was still getting a lot of assists even in his poor spell. I'll get few stats up if can, but even in 95/96 im almot certain he had 2nd highest at club.

I'll see if can get some. Taking away penos and Cole's goals per game ratio was better then Shearer.

No it's grand. Not disagreeing with that. More the point that he fluffed some good chances, had a bad spell in front of goal and lots were taking the piss out of him.

Pro. F

RichFTW wrote: »

He didn't start all of them but did have enough time to make an impact in most of the games. Granted it would have been easier for him to get a run going with consistent starts but game time was available for him. He would have got more starts if he impressed more when he was playing.

That wasn't my reasoning. Injuries didn't keep him out of the team, more so the fact that he had problems tracking back, wasn't producing it when he was playing and Fergie didn't think he was the best option available.

I'm not denying that Nani would have gotten more starts if he had produced more when getting irregular games those seasons. He has always needed a run of games to get going. Plenty of top class players are the same in that regard.

I know Fergie didn't think he was the best available option. Fergie was wrong. That became evident when Fergie was finally forced to give Nani regular game time and he was consistently excellent.

RichFTW wrote: »

Because it didn't. We have established he had 2 good seasons. My cycle theory refers to the other 5 seasons.

In the original post you said "all he does is repeat the same cycle". You are now showing that that is not correct, there was a two and a half season spell where he completely bucked that trend. That shows that your Nani every-few-games cycle theory is flawed.

RichFTW wrote: »

Exactly, his attitude held him back from realising his ability which wasn't far off Ronaldo. This theory can be used to criticise any player as it holds true. You can have all the ability in the world, but if you have a crap attitude, you will go no where.

You have no proof that Nani has a crap attitude beyond bullshít assumptions and circular logic.

bucketybuck

sea_monkey wrote: »

My brother has been to a few matches and has gotten seats behind the dugout. He said the coaching staff had to constantly shout at nani to position him properly, tracking back or picking up men, whereas valencia didnt have to be told.

My brother tells me that Valencia has only two assists in the league this season.

Pro. F

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Fellaini's best seasons for Everton were in that role and he plays it more often than not for the flavour of the year Belgium national team.

It's a statement of someone who hasn't watched Fellaini at all I think

Belgium and Moyes' Everton are tika-taka teams like Bayern now are they? That sounds like the statement of someone who wasn't paying any attention to the actual point made.

Timmyctc

bucketybuck wrote: »

My brother tells me that Valencia has only two assists in the league this season.

Unable to look that one up yourself wasit? :pac:

The_Kew_Tour

redbaron_99 wrote: »

No it's grand. Not disagreeing with that. More the point that he fluffed some good chances, had a bad spell in front of goal and lots were taking the piss out of him.

I know you more then agreeing.

I just wanted highlight some things though when people compare Welbeck To Cole

His assists were pretty decent from 95/96 to 97/98 when many consider his poor period

95/96 16 assists
96/97 10(he only started 20 games. that was season he broke both legs)
97/98 13

http://www.premiersoccerstats.com/PlayerHome.cfm?PLAYERID=COLEA1

Rayne Wooney

Pro. F wrote: »

Belgium and Moyes' Everton are tika-taka teams like Bayern now are they? That sounds like the statement of someone who wasn't paying any attention to the actual point made.

Yah I only read back over the posts before after my mistake

Liam O

Fellaini is a decent enough passer and has a good first touch, put a player in beside him that he can lay it off to and I think he would be a fine player for United.

RichFTW

Pro. F wrote: »

In the original post you said "all he does is repeat the same cycle". You are now showing that that is not correct, there was a two and a half season spell where he completely bucked that trend. That shows that your Nani every-few-games cycle theory is flawed.

My mistake. Add in "for 5 out of the 7 seasons he has been with united" to the quote above.

Pro. F wrote: »

You have no proof that Nani has a crap attitude beyond bullshít assumptions and circular logic.

Conversely, you have no proof he had a good attitude. Like I said, my assumptions come from observations. He looked disinterested when playing, winged when he was subbed and moaned when he had to track back. Separately, if he had a better attitude, he would have become a better player. You might want to google circular logic again because I didn't use it in this instance.

redbaron_99

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I know you more then agreeing.

I just wanted highlight some things though when people compare Welbeck To Cole

His assists were pretty decent from 95/96 to 97/98 when many consider his poor period

95/96 16 assists
96/97 10(he only started 20 games. that was season he broke both legs)
97/98 13

http://www.premiersoccerstats.com/PlayerHome.cfm?PLAYERID=COLEA1

To be honest, I probably made a bad comparison. They are quite different players. I think welbeck needs a long run of games in order to find the best role for him and to bring out his confidence. I'm not sure he will ever get that run at united.
I think the future for us will be one up top. That's going to limit him further

The_Kew_Tour

redbaron_99 wrote: »

To be honest, I probably made a bad comparison. They are quite different players. I think welbeck needs a long run of games in order to find the best role for him and to bring out his confidence. I'm not sure he will ever get that run at united.
I think the future for us will be one up top. That's going to limit him further

People might also think Welbeck plays on the wing a lot, so did Andy Cole a number of times.

redbaron_99

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I know you more then agreeing.

I just wanted highlight some things though when people compare Welbeck To Cole

His assists were pretty decent from 95/96 to 97/98 when many consider his poor period

95/96 16 assists
96/97 10(he only started 20 games. that was season he broke both legs)
97/98 13

http://www.premiersoccerstats.com/PlayerHome.cfm?PLAYERID=COLEA1

Yeah and those broken legs. Razor ruddock wasn't it?
I saw old razor doing a talk in a pub years ago. He said he pulled cantonas collars down in a match, think Eric was
Sent off soon after. Razor said he went into the tunnel after the game and Eric was waiting for him, wearing just a pair of shorts. He said he hid behind David James and ducked into the dressing room.
Was hilarious listening to it

bucketybuck

RichFTW wrote: »

He looked disinterested when playing, winged when he was subbed and moaned when he had to track back.

No he didn't, no he didn't, and for your last statement, no he didn't.

Pro. F

Y2KBOS86 wrote: »

Serious lack of pace though.

In a title challenging team does he have the skill set to play on the wing?

He can't play in the middle, Mata, Rooney, Kagawa are all way better and still youngish as well.

If yee get the likes of Kroos, Costa etc I don't know where he fits.

Ah, come on now. He's not the quickest, but he's not nearly as slow as you're making out. With his control, striking of the ball and vision he's definitely got the talents. The only question now is if he will keep progressing from here.

redbaron_99

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

People might also think Welbeck plays on the wing a lot, so did Andy Cole a number of times.

Hmm don't remember that. I do remember being at OT. Everton match in the league. Worst game I ever seen. Cole shinned in a winner. Legend

The_Kew_Tour

redbaron_99 wrote: »

Yeah and those broken legs. Razor ruddock wasn't it?
I saw old razor doing a talk in a pub years ago. He said he pulled cantonas collars down in a match, think Eric was
Sent off soon after. Razor said he went into the tunnel after the game and Eric was waiting for him, wearing just a pair of shorts. He said he hid behind David James and ducked into the dressing room.
Was hilarious listening to it

He is a grade A........ actually wont say cause get ban.

Ruddock was horrible individual.

Still loves talking about breaking a mans 2 legs for no reason.

Cole had last laugh though.

Pro. F

RichFTW wrote: »

My mistake. Add in "for 5 out of the 7 seasons he has been with united" to the quote above.

Conversely, you have no proof he had a good attitude. Like I said, my assumptions come from observations. He looked disinterested when playing, winged when he was subbed and moaned when he had to track back. Separately, if he had a better attitude, he would have become a better player. You might want to google circular logic again because I didn't use it in this instance.

We've definitely gotten to the stage of repeating ourselves to each other now. For a response to this post from me just go back and read our conversation from the start again. If you come away with a better understanding of what is going on then you will have benefited. If you still can't see the flaws in your argument, then it's your loss.

The_Kew_Tour

redbaron_99 wrote: »

Hmm don't remember that. I do remember being at OT. Everton match in the league. Worst game I ever seen. Cole shinned in a winner. Legend

Im trying to remember when he was out there and reason.

It was not for lot games, but he did occasionally go there, but was period when he played on wing for few games on trot.

redbaron_99

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

He is a grade A........ actually wont say cause get ban.

Ruddock was horrible individual.

Still loves talking about breaking a mans 2 legs for no reason.

Cole had last laugh though.

Agreed. Tell you what, from listening to him that night, eric must have been a right hard ********. No one wanted a bit of him

redbaron_99

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Im trying to remember when he was out there and reason.

It was not for lot games, but he did occasionally go there, but was period when he played on wing for few games on trot.

Giggs had a lot of hamstring problems around that time. Could have been that...?