Ospreys V Leinster, Liberty Stadium: 11/4, 7:05, RTE2+BBCW

Piliger

Tox56 wrote: »

Tonight in the starting 15 we had 12 Irish internationals and a Springbok with 4 Lions among them, and they played so so poorly.

Demonstrating that personnel is not our problem. Attitude and mental preparation is what is lacking, and we are seeing the brilliance in this area that Schmidt brought.

hogandrew

Rightwing wrote: »

Another huge factor is Sexton, he is a massive loss, the replacements are average by comparison.

Now that the future of the Euro cup is safe, every effort must be kept to keep all our top players.

I think u are over estimating the importance of sexton. Cronin, Strauss and Dundon are more than adequate cover

Rightwing

Buer wrote: »

I'm really not surprised by the reaction. I knew it would happen as soon as we lost regardless of how it happened, to be honest.

You highlight the strength of our side that went there last season and didn't manage a losing BP. What about the Ospreys side that inflicted that loss? No Ian Evans, no AWJ, no Adam Jones, no Ryan Jones, no Tipuric, no Biggar, no Hibbard, no Bevington, no Beck, no Fotuali'i.

What irritates me is the complete lack of awareness of the situation we're in and the expectation we can maintain some semblance of the showings that we showed in recent seasons. People might point to our victory in the ACC last season. Perhaps we'd have delivered similar showings and results if we'd been in the ACC this season agains the other sides in the quarter finals: Bath, Brive, Sale, Wasps, Gloucester etc.

I don't mind that we aren't delivering to the level we did 2 years ago (because we certainly didn't last season). I think we need to improve a lot. But the obtuse viewpoint of many who struggle to acknowledge so many contributing factors is dispiriting.

Unfortunately that's the nature of sport I suppose. All you need do is look at plane flying over with that stupid banner about Moyes a few weeks back, and the man doing his utmost to try and rebuild a team.

Loyal fans are thin on the ground these days. But as CFH says, Leinster are top of the table, apart from Munster all the other teams would swap position.

Buer

neilmulvey wrote: »

there was 12 ireland internationals, plus Gopperth and Kirchner [springbok] and the performance was littered with dropped balls, missed tackles, poor discipline and poor decision making. IMO thats a huge lack of attention to detail. Two weeks in a row and the players were making so many basic errors so I feel people have a right to wonder what and why this is happening.

I don't deny that there are issues. Am I happy with tonight? Of course not. I expected us to lose though, just as we have for the last 3 years.

I really hope people aren't basing their opinions on tonight where we played a strong side who had a week off to prepare and we had a 5 game turnaround, away from home.

Rightwing

hogandrew wrote: »

I think u are over estimating the importance of sexton. Cronin, Strauss and Dundon are more than adequate cover

Maybe I am, but to me a player like Sexton makes it all happen. Take Suarez out of Liverpool, and things mightn't be as rosy.

Tox56

Buer wrote: »

I'm really not surprised by the reaction. I knew it would happen as soon as we lost regardless of how it happened, to be honest.

That completely ignores the point and suggests to me you had your mind made up in advance as much as anyone on the other side of the argument

What irritates me is the complete lack of awareness of the situation we're in and the expectation we can maintain some semblance of the showings that we showed in recent seasons. People might point to our victory in the ACC last season. Perhaps we'd have delivered similar showings and results if we'd been in the ACC this season agains the other sides in the quarter finals: Bath, Brive, Sale, Wasps, Gloucester etc.

I don't mind that we aren't delivering to the level we did 2 years ago (because we certainly didn't last season). I think we need to improve a lot. But the obtuse viewpoint of many who struggle to acknowledge so many contributing factors is dispiriting.

I'm completely aware we wont be close to how we played 2 years ago, clearly that isn't the issue for me and I'd wager many others.

Perhaps the biggest concern for me is that the skillset of the squad as a whole is extremely disappointing, particularly in terms of the number of handling errors, and simple things like quick transfer of the ball is clearly lacking this season.

Flicking between this and the Ulster game, the difference in attack was stark. There were dummy runners, the carrier always had options, it wasn't predictable. OK the opposition was worse but there was movement and spark that Leinster didn't have.

What do you actually think the problems are? Presuming you think they exist

CatFromHue

Piliger wrote: »

Demonstrating that personnel is not our problem. Attitude and mental preparation is what is lacking, and we are seeing the brilliance in this area that Schmidt brought.

Given the choice of their loose 5 forwards and ours and their halfbacks and ours I'd take theirs every time.

Tox56

CatFromHue wrote: »

Given the choice of their loose 5 forwards and ours and their halfbacks and ours I'd take theirs every time.

And given the choice of our tight 5 and theirs? Or our back 3 and theirs? While we're throwing up random head to heads

neilmulvey

Buer wrote: »

I don't deny that there are issues. Am I happy with tonight? Of course not. I expected us to lose though, just as we have for the last 3 years.

I really hope people aren't basing their opinions on tonight where we played a strong side who had a week off to prepare and we had a 5 game turnaround, away from home.

I dont buy the turnaround excuse to be honest. They are professionals. If they arent fit to play they wont. If they are then its not an excuse.

The basic skills have been woefully poor this season. Not just tonight. Its the time of the season when performances should be improving, not getting worse by the passing minute in games.

If Leinster didnt make so many basic, and largely unforced errors then tonights game was there to be won. The Ospreys side might have been a strong side but they did nothing in the HEC this year. Leinster had a very strong side out tonight too. In the PRO12 this year these mistakes can go largely unpunished so the league position and results against Zebre/Treviso 2nd strings papers over the issues.

CatFromHue

Tox56 wrote: »

And given the choice of our tight 5 and theirs? Or our back 3 and theirs? While we're throwing up random head to heads

I'd take their tight 5 over ours, Wyn Jones and Jones are fantastic players I think and their front row is very handy too. Healy was very good today and really stood up like a Senior player should but overall I'd go with their front row.

Back 3 I dunno.

Rightwing

neilmulvey wrote: »

I dont buy the turnaround excuse to be honest. They are professionals. If they arent fit to play they wont. If they are then its not an excuse.

The basic skills have been woefully poor this season. Not just tonight. Its the time of the season when performances should be improving, not getting worse by the passing minute in games.

If Leinster didnt make so many basic, and largely unforced errors then tonights game was there to be won. The Ospreys side might have been a strong side but they did nothing in the HEC this year. Leinster had a very strong side out tonight too. In the PRO12 this year these mistakes can go largely unpunished so the league position and results against Zebre/Treviso 2nd strings papers over the issues.

It is an excuse, but a very valid one. Leinster were bullied around the park by a massive team, of course it's an issue.

Tox56

CatFromHue wrote: »

I'd take their tight 5 over ours, Wyn Jones and Jones are fantastic players I think and their front row is very handy too. Healy was very good today and really stood up like a Senior player should but overall I'd go with their front row.

Back 3 I dunno.

Are you serious here? Duncan Jones, Baldwin, Jarvis over Healy, Cronin, Moore? That isn't even a contest for me

CatFromHue

The turnaround is a very valid one. A few weeks ago many people were saying this wasn't going to be a game we'd win.

Sunday game
Monday post game evaluation
Tues train
Wed rest
Thurs Captains run
Fri game

neilmulvey

Rightwing wrote: »

It is an excuse, but a very valid one. Leinster were bullied around the park by a massive team, of course it's an issue.

well given how Healy and Heaslip performed tonight, I find it hard to credit as an excuse. Leinster lost tonight because they made so many basic errors. Not because they played away to Toulon last sunday.

CatFromHue

Tox56 wrote: »

Are you serious here? Duncan Jones, Baldwin, Jarvis over Healy, Cronin, Moore? That isn't even a contest for me

Yeah I am.

Healy was excellent but their front row is very experienced at playing together and at playing at this level. The Ospreys have a very good scrum and these guys are a big part of it.

Moore is still in his early days as a Senior player and it looked like from the game today they had the advantage in the scrum.

Buer

neilmulvey wrote: »

I dont buy the turnaround excuse to be honest. They are professionals. If they arent fit to play they wont. If they are then its not an excuse. .

Sorry, that's just rubbish. One side has a bruising encounter last Sunday where they probably don't train properly until Wednesday. The other has two weeks to train with their selected side and prepare their side.

Absolutely massive factor.

Tox56

CatFromHue wrote: »

The turnaround is a very valid one. A few weeks ago many people were saying this wasn't going to be a game we'd win.

Sunday game
Monday post game evaluation
Tues train
Wed rest
Thurs Captains run
Fri game

Of the pack the players who started in Toulon were Healy, Toner, Jennings, Heaslip. I thought 2 of them were our 2 standout players.

To be honest while some people go too far into the MOC out stuff I think on the other side there is too much excuse making and reluctance to acknowledge the arguments criticising him

Rightwing

neilmulvey wrote: »

well given how Healy and Heaslip performed tonight, I find it hard to credit as an excuse. Leinster lost tonight because they made so many basic errors. Not because they played away to Toulon last sunday.

But these are the exceptions to the rule.

Isn't that the big advantage we have over the Fr and Eng, we can target the H cup games. Just the way Ospreys targetted this one. This was a key game for them.

Buer

Tox56 wrote: »

I'm completely aware we wont be close to how we played 2 years ago, clearly that isn't the issue for me and I'd wager many others.

Perhaps the biggest concern for me is that the skillset of the squad as a whole is extremely disappointing, particularly in terms of the number of handling errors, and simple things like quick transfer of the ball is clearly lacking this season.

Flicking between this and the Ulster game, the difference in attack was stark. There were dummy runners, the carrier always had options, it wasn't predictable. OK the opposition was worse but there was movement and spark that Leinster didn't have.

What do you actually think the problems are? Presuming you think they exist

No, I think that actually is a big factor. People are struggling to accept we're not capable of playing like we once did.

The skillset is struggling, undoubtedly. I think that MOC needs to look at how he's preparing the team. Are they mentally as sharp as they could be? Do they know their roles? Are they switched on from day one in training each week? I feel the expectations of the players among themselves is not as high as it once was but I think that was clearly starting to drop last season already.

What do I think the problems are? I think we hugely lack people to create the holes in their defence. We need someone to put them on their back foot and recycle quickly to allow us to attack with width. We aren't doing that and, when we go wide, the defence are set and waiting. Our alignment is not up to scratch. We need to take the ball closer to the gain line and utilise runners off the shoulder more often to check the defence, varying the point of attack.

I think, in the pack, our organisation needs review. We have carriers getting isolated too regularly, allowing the opposition time to attack our attack.

Most of all, we lack incision and clear thinking on the field. We need someone who can run the show and call the shots. The biggest lost by a country mile this season was JS. And that isn't Joe Schmidt.

neilmulvey

Tox56 wrote: »

Of the pack the players who started in Toulon were Healy, Toner, Jennings, Heaslip. I thought 2 of them were our 2 standout players.

To be honest while some people go too far into the MOC out stuff I think on the other side there is too much excuse making and reluctance to acknowledge the arguments criticising him

agree. The issues are the basic errors going on all season bar a few exceptions. Its just convenient that there was a game last sunday which meant the players could catch/tackle/pass the ball tonight. Sexton and JS moving on are too convenient as well.

neilmulvey

Buer wrote: »

Sorry, that's just rubbish. One side has a bruising encounter last Sunday where they probably don't train properly until Wednesday. The other has two weeks to train with their selected side and prepare their side.

Absolutely massive factor.

given how many missed tackles there was last sunday, it wasnt that bruising :cool:

Rightwing

neilmulvey wrote: »

agree. The issues are the basic errors going on all season bar a few exceptions. Its just convenient that there was a game last sunday which meant the players could catch/tackle/pass the ball tonight. Sexton and JS moving on are too convenient as well.

Perhaps, but the players also need to front up and take some responsibility if things are as bad as some are making out.

Buer

neilmulvey wrote: »

given how many missed tackles there was last sunday, it wasnt that bruising :cool:

If it wasn't that bruising, it's a wonder half the team were rested.

neilmulvey

Rightwing wrote: »

But these are the exceptions to the rule.

Isn't that the big advantage we have over the Fr and Eng, we can target the H cup games. Just the way Ospreys targetted this one. This was a key game for them.

Boss didnt start last week and was poor enough tonight. Some of his passes were awful although he did make a few good tackles.

Cullen, Cronin, Moore didnt start last week and Reid & McLaughlin werent in the 23. Kirchner came on after about 20 min last week IIRC.

It is absolutely no excuse for the poor basic skills. I can understand if it creeped in after an hour as the players tired but it was from the very start

Tox56

Buer wrote: »

No, I think that actually is a big factor. People are struggling to accept we're not capable of playing like we once did.

The skillset is struggling, undoubtedly. I think that MOC needs to look at how he's preparing the team. Are they mentally as sharp as they could be? Do they know their roles? Are they switched on from day one in training each week?

You hit most of my concerns there (and they're big ones) and it's nothing to do with us no longer playing like the best team in European club rugby history.

neilmulvey

Buer wrote: »

If it wasn't that bruising, it's a wonder half the team were rested.

And the best performers on the night Healy, Heaslip, Kearney x2 all played last week having played a lot of international rugby in the last two months.

CatFromHue

I'm guessing but I don't think we've ever fielded a three quarter line of Gopperth, Reid, and D'arcy. Training this week would have been about getting them more familiar with each other and going through moves. They'd all know the moves but it still takes time to get familiar with each other and it's this time that was missing this week.

Buer

neilmulvey wrote: »

And the best performers on the night Healy, Heaslip, Kearney x2 all played last week having played a lot of international rugby in the last two months.

You'd swear three of them are world class players who are a cut above.

Utter nonsense to suggest the 5 day turnaround versus two weeks off isn't a huge factor.

molloyjh

Buer wrote: »

Sorry, Molloy, all you did there was avoid answering the straighforward question; which is more important?

I'm not avoiding answering it, I'm flat out refusing to answer it. It's a loaded question with no right answer.

Buer wrote: »

If we scored a last minute drop goal to to win that game 22-19 you and I both know this conversation wouldn't be happening.

I'd be saying exactly the same things about our season whether we won or lost today. Our performances this season on the whole have not been good enough. A drop goal wouldn't have changed that. It's not like I've only been having this conversation for the last 2 weeks.

And if your auntie had balls yada, yada.

Buer wrote: »

I don't think anyone is denying things aren't perfect. However, the reaction of many posters since the early stages has been tiresome. It's the utter reluctance to acknowledge the situation we're in at the same time as ignoring how we performed last season that's frustrating.

How can people expect a similar type of display with different crucial players escapes me.

How many people actually expect a similar type of display? I've lost count of the number of times I've clarified that I don't. But that doesn't mean I accept the constant basic errors we've seen. I expected a drop in performance, but I still expected and continue to expect a certain level of performance below previous years but also well above this years. No amount of crappy bonus point wins or what iffery changes that. Whether we win trophies or not isn't the issue here. How we play week in week out is. As Tox said, get the performances right and the results will take care of themselves.

CatFromHue

My biggest worry is the lack of trying backs moves.

The few games I've been at in the RDS had very few loops, switches, wingers coming in, or skips.

That's worrying.

Our goals for the season (out of the group in HEC and into the playoffs for Rabo) have been pretty much reached (we're 13 points ahead of 5th with 3 games to go) so there is plenty to be happy about. There's a strong argument that our HEC group was the toughest of the lot (Ulster's group would be close but they'd an Italian team) and we had one of the tougher QF's too. Twenty two points, 16 tries, and +86 points difference would be enough to get you a home QF most years!

The whole 12 Irish Internationals isn't right either. Yeah we do have a good few Dave and Rob, D'arcy, Healy, Cronin, Moore, Toner, and Heaslip but Jennings, McLaughlin, Boss, and Cullen are no longer internationals really.

Buer

I'm not avoiding answering it, I'm flat out refusing to answer it. It's a loaded question with no right answer.

Fair enough. It is a loaded question because, as far as I'm concerned, it's a results based industry. If you're winning you're doing things right. It might not be pretty but it's effective. We went on the longest unbeaten run of any team in Europe up until last week. NZ won a RWC being outplayed. The history books only record one thing.

I'd be saying exactly the same things about our season whether we won or lost today. Our performances this season on the whole have not been good enough. A drop goal wouldn't have changed that. It's not like I've only been having this conversation for the last 2 weeks.

And if your auntie had balls yada, yada.

I know you've certainly been of this opinion longer than most and it's not a knee jerk reaction on your part. But there has been an explosion in the complaints department in the past 6 days. There's some embarrassing stuff on LF, for example. The complaints were far, far quieter earlier this season. When we beat the Ospreys, for example, there was barely a whisper but the week before against Munster people were very quick to give MOC stick. Results drive the bulk of comments.

How many people actually expect a similar type of display? I've lost count of the number of times I've clarified that I don't. But that doesn't mean I accept the constant basic errors we've seen. I expected a drop in performance, but I still expected and continue to expect a certain level of performance below previous years but also well above this years. No amount of crappy bonus point wins or what iffery changes that. Whether we win trophies or not isn't the issue here. How we play week in week out is. As Tox said, get the performances right and the results will take care of themselves.

I think a lot of people do, actually. They struggle to separate the last 3 years from this year. Can you honestly say that these comments would be taking place if MOC took over in 2008? I think the errors are unacceptable and the lack of clarity in attack is there to see. But I think we've done well all things considered. When I step back and look at things in black and white, I think we've done as well as last season if not better. My main gripe is that this season is being held do a different standard than last season. We were muck last season for long spells; worse than anything we've seen this year but there was never this outcry.

Getting the performances right and the results take care of themselves is true. But if we went on the longest run of any side in Europe, would that not suggest we are actually doing a lot of things right? We are not playing pretty rugby and we are not as clinical as we could be but there has certainly been a lot of good rugby.

Rightwing

T Ward's article succinctly sums it up.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/tony-ward-fickle-fans-a-blight-on-modern-game-30179408.html

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Rightwing wrote: »

T Ward's article succinctly sums it up.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/tony-ward-fickle-fans-a-blight-on-modern-game-30179408.html

ignoring that awful article. Why did you feel the need to post that in this thread?

on the river

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

ignoring that awful article. Why did you feel the need to post that in this thread?

there is nothing awful about it. WARD knows what he's talking about.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

on the river wrote: »

there is nothing awful about it. WARD knows what he's talking about.

There's plenty awful about it. He's equating rugby fans to sack crazed soccer fans when it's simply not the case. Not sure why you put his name in block capitals either

on the river

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

There's plenty awful about it. He's equating rugby fans to sack crazed soccer fans when it's simply not the case. Not sure why you put his name in block capitals either

To emphasis his greatness

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

on the river wrote: »

To emphasis his greatness

The same Tony Ward who wanted Billy Dardis drafted into the Irish squad when he was barely out of school?

on the river

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

The same Tony Ward who wanted Billy Dardis drafted into the Irish squad when he was barely out of school?

He had to start some where. Experience is everything the more the better.

Heroditas

Did Hugh Farrelly shadow write that for Wardy?

irishbucsfan

on the river wrote: »

He had to start some where. Experience is everything the more the better.

Sure why not start him in the international team.

Actually I need a bit of experience as well, they should chuck me in

Taco Corp

on the river wrote: »

He had to start some where. Experience is everything the more the better.

your posts remind me of KenM

Tox56

Captain_Hindsight wrote: »

your posts remind me of KenM

:pac::pac:

I knew he reminded me of something

.ak

Just watched the game there. God that was an awful display from the ref. thought we were the better team but as usual we weren't accurate enough.

CatFromHue

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

There's plenty awful about it. He's equating rugby fans to sack crazed soccer fans when it's simply not the case. Not sure why you put his name in block capitals either

The only problem I have in the article is that he doesn't say "some" fans.

He is pretty spot on other wise.

Some of the stuff you read online is embarrassing whether it's on a fans forum or newspaper comment section.

Tox56

CatFromHue wrote: »

The only problem I have in the article is that he doesn't say "some" fans.

He is pretty spot on other wise.

Some of the stuff you read online is embarrassing whether it's on a fans forum or newspaper comment section.

The difference between rugby and soccer with regards to coaches is still absolutely huge. See how long it took the possibility of sacking Kidney with Ireland to even be realistically discussed in the wider media. Nobody in the media (and most rational fans, although there are exceptions) will be realistically discussing sacking MOC after this season regardless of what happens from here on in.

Soccer is still almost game by game, a new coach with a rugby team will almost certainly see out his contract, or at the very least can see the end of the season. It would take something pretty exceptionally bad for a rugby coach to be sacked after a season (assuming his contract runs for longer than that). There's still a lot more of 'give them time' or 'see how it pans out'. Many soccer teams dont have anything like that sort of patience

CatFromHue

Schmidt came in for some serious heat already though!

In the IRFU/Leinster/Munster offices there is a huge difference between football and rugby managerial reigns but flick through the fans sites and newspaper comments and you get a very different view.

Tox56

CatFromHue wrote: »

Schmidt came in for some serious heat already though!

Serious heat is all very relative though. No matter how much I disagreed with it there was criticism of some of his selections, but sacking him? Did anybody seriously think that was on the cards?

CatFromHue

Sacking him no but he did come under alot more criticism already than Kidney or possible even EOS.

Actually there were plenty of calls for a non Irish coach with no links to the provinces online so the sacking thing was certainly touched to some degree.

thomond2006

This let's have a go at internet fans vendetta by newspapers is tiresome. I think the motive is pretty obvious: Newspapers are feeling irrelevant and want to discredit us.

Well Tony, from us to you: piss off and actually write something worthwhile.

shuffol

I think people are overstating the points tally/pro 12 results this season. With the exception of Ulster, Leinster, Munster the league is in awful shape at the minute. Not to mention that the Italian sides have only been in for 2 seasons so on the tally front your not comparing like with like.