Tenants' union

steddyeddy

Hey guys myself and a few legal students from UCD want to set up a "tenants union" in Ireland. This was originally intended solely for students but we're enlarging to fit the general demand.

A tenant union for students basically holds deposits that students give to landlords ect, we also balcklist and report any landlord suspected of denying student's rights regarding living arrangements ect (which has happened more times than you would believe).

Anyway we have made massive success with the student version so I was just wondering would this type of thing work in the real world? Any input or suggestion would be most welcome.

The_Conductor

If it is working in the student sector- I'm quite surprised, as two previous attempts to implement it- once by tenants, once by landlords, were smashed, on data protection grounds. Personally I think there should be some manner of blacklisting both landlords and tenants- alongside some mechanism for chasing those who cause undue damage to property, or undue cost or inconvenience to either tenants or landlords.

I can only foresee stress and annoyance in trying to set up this.........

steddyeddy

The_Conductor wrote: »

If it is working in the student sector- I'm quite surprised, as two previous attempts to implement it- once by tenants, once by landlords, were smashed, on data protection grounds. Personally I think there should be some manner of blacklisting both landlords and tenants- alongside some mechanism for chasing those who cause undue damage to property, or undue cost or inconvenience to either tenants or landlords.

I can only foresee stress and annoyance in trying to set up this.........

It's set up already (in UCD). By blacklisting I mean the accomadation officer (our one) and other people keep a list of people they won't advertise to the students. It's not a matter of going into detail just advising students against certain landlords. Students who abuse landlords decency should also be blacklisted IMHO. There's too many students giving people a bad name and wrecking houses ect.

hfallada

Would the tenants union be happy for LLs to blacklist potential students? My parents are LLs are there students who clearly dont understand the concept of renting which is use of a house for a period of time. It doesnt entitle tenants to throw parties with as many people as they want. It doesnt entitle them to move out without cleaning the house at all, it doesnt entitle them not to have to pay for damages like breaking windows or having walls repainting after fake tan destroying them.

The media never reports about how difficult letting to students is in Ireland. Most LLs dont bother letting to third level students any more due to the high demand from foreign nationals working or studying English in Dublin. A tenant union is just going to further distinctiveness letting to third level students. I have yet to hear from any of my parents LL friends, who together have hundreds of properties every being brought to the PRTB. LLs are reasonable people and often rely on reputation to ensure they have potential customers in the future. There is little incentive for them to tarnish their reputation for a few hundred euros. They are business people.

I think a greater priority for a students union, is how third level students are going to find accommodation in the next academic year. I was speaking to friends who tried booking apartments that filled up mid-september last year, but they were completely booked up this in 2 hours. Most rental properties in Areas like Dublin 1,7 & 9 have all been sold. Drive up the NCR and you see nothing but for sale or sale agreed signs. And all those properties are no longer going to be bed sits. A lot of student accommodation tax relief schemes like section 50s are gone. Meaning accommodation for third level students maybe let to professionals now

Its a LLs market and tenants are just going to have to realise that.

steddyeddy

hfallada wrote: »

Would the tenants union be happy for LLs to blacklist potential students? My parents are LLs are there students who clearly dont understand the concept of renting which is use of a house for a period of time. It doesnt entitle tenants to throw parties with as many people as they want. It doesnt entitle them to move out without cleaning the house at all, it doesnt entitle them not to have to pay for damages like breaking windows or having walls repainting after fake tan destroying them.

The media never reports about how difficult letting to students is in Ireland. Most LLs dont bother letting to third level students any more due to the high demand from foreign nationals working or studying English in Dublin. A tenant union is just going to further distinctiveness letting to third level students. I have yet to hear from any of my parents LL friends, who together have hundreds of properties every being brought to the PRTB. LLs are reasonable people and often rely on reputation to ensure they have potential customers in the future. There is little incentive for them to tarnish their reputation for a few hundred euros. They are business people.

I think a greater priority for a students union, is how third level students are going to find accommodation in the next academic year. I was speaking to friends who tried booking apartments that filled up mid-september last year, but they were completely booked up this in 2 hours. Most rental properties in Areas like Dublin 1,7 & 9 have all been sold. Drive up the NCR and you see nothing but for sale or sale agreed signs. And all those properties are no longer going to be bed sits. A lot of student accommodation tax relief schemes like section 50s are gone. Meaning accommodation for third level students maybe let to professionals now

Its a LLs market and tenants are just going to have to realise that.

I just said some students should be blacklisted. I posted a thread here yonks ago stating that I was acting as landlord in a house full of students. Most were grand but two moved in and caused so much disruption I left. They later destroyed the house that I had a lot of happy memories in. For no reason whatsoever. So by all means blacklist bad tenants (not those who are struggling to pay rent) because I know the stress involved.

steddyeddy

hfallada wrote: »

Would the tenants union be happy for LLs to blacklist potential students? My parents are LLs are there students who clearly dont understand the concept of renting which is use of a house for a period of time. It doesnt entitle tenants to throw parties with as many people as they want. It doesnt entitle them to move out without cleaning the house at all, it doesnt entitle them not to have to pay for damages like breaking windows or having walls repainting after fake tan destroying them.

The media never reports about how difficult letting to students is in Ireland. Most LLs dont bother letting to third level students any more due to the high demand from foreign nationals working or studying English in Dublin. A tenant union is just going to further distinctiveness letting to third level students. I have yet to hear from any of my parents LL friends, who together have hundreds of properties every being brought to the PRTB. LLs are reasonable people and often rely on reputation to ensure they have potential customers in the future. There is little incentive for them to tarnish their reputation for a few hundred euros. They are business people.

I think a greater priority for a students union, is how third level students are going to find accommodation in the next academic year. I was speaking to friends who tried booking apartments that filled up mid-september last year, but they were completely booked up this in 2 hours. Most rental properties in Areas like Dublin 1,7 & 9 have all been sold. Drive up the NCR and you see nothing but for sale or sale agreed signs. And all those properties are no longer going to be bed sits. A lot of student accommodation tax relief schemes like section 50s are gone. Meaning accommodation for third level students maybe let to professionals now

Its a LLs market and tenants are just going to have to realise that.

On this point we are making progress. Many are overcharging for shoddy accommodation and those who over charge won't be listed as suitable for students now or ever.

hfallada

steddyeddy wrote: »

On this point we are making progress. Many are overcharging for shoddy accommodation and those who over charge won't be listed as suitable for students now or ever.

We live in a free market. Demand and Supply sets the price. Overcharging is very much subjective. If potential tenants dont like the price, then dont rent the house. Most tenants look for houses using daft.ie and arent bothered with list of houses that student unions give out.

ted1

Is there not an issue that the LL can sue for defamation if blacklisted.
Why would a landlord trust such body with the deposit. A proper government escrow is what is needed.

hardCopy

ted1 wrote: »

Is there not an issue that the LL can sue for defamation if blacklisted.
Why would a landlord trust such body with the deposit. A proper government escrow is what is needed.

How do sites like menupages get around this?

The_Morrigan

ted1 wrote: »

Is there not an issue that the LL can sue for defamation if blacklisted.
Why would a landlord trust such body with the deposit. A proper government escrow is what is needed.

Would you trust them more?

In theory the idea is great and I can see the merits of it for students, who probably are renting for the first time and don't know their arse from their elbow in relation to renting.


I'm curious as to how you manage this list of renters and landlords - do they have contracts with the Union for holding deposits? Or do they sign up to be part of the scheme as an approved landlord/renter?

Is the union operating like a letting agent?

steddyeddy

ted1 wrote: »

Is there not an issue that the LL can sue for defamation if blacklisted.
Why would a landlord trust such body with the deposit. A proper government escrow is what is needed.

UCD will be holding the deposit. They have deep pockets.

Gatling

Personally I'd rather see tenants get rights to form or be part of housing /apartments association

steddyeddy

Gatling wrote: »

Personally I'd rather see tenants get rights to form or be part of housing /apartments association

Interesting idea Gatling. What's the difference?

ted1

steddyeddy wrote: »

UCD will be holding the deposit. They have deep pockets.

Is the CFO willing to take on that responsibility. I don't think ucd are mandated to take the money and it may not be legal for them to take the money from private renters

The_Conductor

ted1 wrote: »

Is the CFO willing to take on that responsibility. I don't think ucd are mandated to take the money and it may not be legal for them to take the money from private renters

Big time.
UCD do not have the 'deep pockets' that you imagine them to have.
The lions share of their finances are directly from the exchequer- and of the paid research etc- a shocking portion of the income is squandered on the likes of PhDs in liberal arts subjects- which is one reason the income generating faculties don't put as much effort into fund raising as they might- why bother, when their own faculties won't see the benefit.

Frankly- a scheme for blacklisting either tenants or landlords- is on shakey ground before you do anything at all- and once you start compiling lists of people- you immediately have data protection to contend with. All it takes is a single complaint from someone you blacklist- and you're in court and bankrupt in no time flat.

As for blacklisting landlords who overcharge students- if landlords can get the rent they are seeking- it is the market rate. If you want students to pay less than the market rent- identify who you want to make up the shortfall. Its not magic- and no-one has any entitlements- landlords get a bad rap a lot of the time- however I would from both personal experience and the various reports from UCD on damage to onsite accommodation over the 2000-2010 period- hazard that students bring a lot of the folly onto themselves.

If you're bored some day- have a look through the archive of the College Tribune at the damage caused by students to some units at Belgrove and Merville- its quite staggering what some students have managed to do........ Landlords have this to contend with - is it any wonder that a significant cadre of landlords refuse to let to students under any circumstances.

If you have a blacklist setup already- advising people of its existence here- is not necessarily the brightest of ideas- its an advertisement to any landlords in the general area to report you to data protection commissioner...........

steddyeddy

Well they can try to be honest. The "blacklist" terms are done in a way to not allude to negativity. The blacklist is simply an absence of ones name on "suitable" landlords in Dublin.

steddyeddy

The_Conductor wrote: »

Big time.
UCD do not have the 'deep pockets' that you imagine them to have.
The lions share of their finances are directly from the exchequer- and of the paid research etc- a shocking portion of the income is squandered on the likes of PhDs in liberal arts subjects- which is one reason the income generating faculties don't put as much effort into fund raising as they might- why bother, when their own faculties won't see the benefit.

Frankly- a scheme for blacklisting either tenants or landlords- is on shakey ground before you do anything at all- and once you start compiling lists of people- you immediately have data protection to contend with. All it takes is a single complaint from someone you blacklist- and you're in court and bankrupt in no time flat.

As for blacklisting landlords who overcharge students- if landlords can get the rent they are seeking- it is the market rate. If you want students to pay less than the market rent- identify who you want to make up the shortfall. Its not magic- and no-one has any entitlements- landlords get a bad rap a lot of the time- however I would from both personal experience and the various reports from UCD on damage to onsite accommodation over the 2000-2010 period- hazard that students bring a lot of the folly onto themselves.

If you're bored some day- have a look through the archive of the College Tribune at the damage caused by students to some units at Belgrove and Merville- its quite staggering what some students have managed to do........ Landlords have this to contend with - is it any wonder that a significant cadre of landlords refuse to let to students under any circumstances.

If you have a blacklist setup already- advising people of its existence here- is not necessarily the brightest of ideas- its an advertisement to any landlords in the general area to report you to data protection commissioner...........

Well I'm in the science facility in UCD and I can tell you they make big money (biochemical research anyway).

The_Conductor

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well I'm in the science facility in UCD and I can tell you they make big money (biochemical research anyway).

Yup......
And have a look at the annual accounts.........
Your biochemistry research (which is really really good research and to be highly commended)- pays for some nutter doing a PhD is ancient Greek civilisations or Old English. The pure sciences massively subsidise the humanities. Its a massive bone of contention with both faculty staff- and the bodies who commission research........

Stheno

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well I'm in the science facility in UCD and I can tell you they make big money (biochemical research anyway).

so are you already running the union or is it just something you are thinking about? Your posts are confusing in this regard

The_Conductor

Stheno wrote: »

so are you already running the union or is it just something you are thinking about? Your posts are confusing in this regard

Sounds like they have a list of 'approved' landlords. There is an implicit understanding that if you're not on the list- you've been blacklisted for one reason or another..........

Mrs OBumble

Don't most universities approach this by providing student accommodation? And isn't there massive bitching about how tough the rules applied for getting deposits back are?

(eg I've heard of one where you have to put the bins out every single week, even if they're almost empty, or you lost your deposit. Obviously they've found that they have to teach the first-year hoardes about simple things like rubbish removal ...)

And why should a landlord accept the deposit being lodged with a tenant-controlled 3rd party, instead of with the landlord - especially now when they can so easily rent to non-students.

And TBH, I'm not sure about the blacklist: it gives scummer students no incentive to out-grow their early silly years.

anncoates

I fully support a more regulated system of tenancy to root out rogue landlords but the recent controversy about landlords also makes me chuckle.

I have a friend that a few years ago was always boasting about the freedom of renting and on more than one occasion bargained his landlord down on rent by threatening to move out. Now, however, the market favours the landlord and he's suddenly massively into the government helping out tenants.

steddyeddy

The_Conductor wrote: »

Yup......
And have a look at the annual accounts.........
Your biochemistry research (which is really really good research and to be highly commended)- pays for some nutter doing a PhD is ancient Greek civilisations or Old English. The pure sciences massively subsidise the humanities. Its a massive bone of contention with both faculty staff- and the bodies who commission research........

Yea I agree there. The money goes back into other departments.

quietsailor

The_Conductor wrote: »

Sounds like they have a list of 'approved' landlords. There is an implicit understanding that if you're not on the list- you've been blacklisted for one reason or another..........

UCC operate an accommodation office and while they carefully won't blacklist a landlord they simply won't allow the landlord to advertise on their website. I'd say from talking to my tenants over the years that the majority of students use this service as the landlords are somewhat vetted. Ie regular complaints or upheld serious complaints gets you taken off the list.

I've butted heads with them before but in the accommodation offices defence once they get the full story from both sides and a few residents they will come down on the right side - doesn't matter if it's tenant or landlord

ted1

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well they can try to be honest. The "blacklist" terms are done in a way to not allude to negativity. The blacklist is simply an absence of ones name on "suitable" landlords in Dublin.

What happens if an approved landlord leaves students out to dry with regards their deposit. Is there any responsibility taking by the union. After all the union approved them.

Valentine1

steddyeddy wrote: »

UCD will be holding the deposit. They have deep pockets.

Isn't this the kind of student thinking that got the UCD SU into serious financial difficulty not so long ago?

The idea itself could be great but if I were advising UCD on it I would be telling them to be very careful, it could be a liability minefield.

Eric Cartman

Not to be bad but if i was renting a property and there was a chance i was going to get blacklisted over a dispute id be putting 'tenants union renters need not apply' on all my ads

steddyeddy

The_Conductor wrote: »

Sounds like they have a list of 'approved' landlords. There is an implicit understanding that if you're not on the list- you've been blacklisted for one reason or another..........

Or simply we haven't heard of landlords not in or forgot to put them on ect ect. There is no implicit understanding.

steddyeddy

quietsailor wrote: »

UCC operate an accommodation office and while they carefully won't blacklist a landlord they simply won't allow the landlord to advertise on their website. I'd say from talking to my tenants over the years that the majority of students use this service as the landlords are somewhat vetted. Ie regular complaints or upheld serious complaints gets you taken off the list.

I've butted heads with them before but in the accommodation offices defence once they get the full story from both sides and a few residents they will come down on the right side - doesn't matter if it's tenant or landlord

And that's exactly what we're doing and it's working.

steddyeddy

Stheno wrote: »

so are you already running the union or is it just something you are thinking about? Your posts are confusing in this regard

Someone is already running an approval system yes.