Season 4; Episode 2: 'The Lion and the Rose'; *Have NOT* Read the Books

Witcher

Continuing on the trend of myself and Kunkka making these threads:pac:

This is the *Non-book readers thread*; No Spoilers

Promo for the episode;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZd7okKkGmI

thefa

Another season, another king's death!

I thought there was a brief glimpse of hope for Joffrey having some diplomatic ability and shrewdness when he accepted Tyrion's gift but he looked like a child again swinging the sword a minute later. Made an absolute tit of himself in the last 5/10 minutes of his life. The disapproval at his treatment of Tyrion and the re-enactment of the war was obvious on the faces of the Tyrells, Oberyn, Varys and more.

No shortage of suspects but surely Tyrion was not in a position to poison the wine in full view of everyone at that moment and the wine was presumably poisoned beforehand when Tyrion didn't have any solid motive to harm Joffrey. Whoever poisoned it mustn't have been too concerned if Margaery took some either since it was sitting at the head table.

Enjoyed the Tyrion/Shae scene as Tyrion realised that the only way of getting her to go was to be cruel rather than just warning of the danger she was in.

superglue

..........







BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Da Shins Kelly

Great episode. The 'recreation' of the battle against the 5 kings was one of the most disturbing moments of the show yet, I thought.

Don't really know how Tyrion could realistically be implicated in Joffrey's death since the sequence of events beforehand would not suggest he was poisoned by the wine. Everyone was drinking the same wine and I don't think the chalice could have been poisoned in that period of 10 mins or so where Joffrey was basically having a family feud in front of wedding-goers. I can't imagine why the Tyrells would want to kill him. They seem to have a great deal to gain from the arrangement. I'm putting my money on the knight turned fool or the lad who has a bone to pick with them for killing his family (although, I'm not that sure about him either).

Stannis is a loon.

expectationlost

could the clown have done it all on his own?

BMMachine

my reckoning is that its the guy we havent seen yet this season - Little Finger. he remembers cersei's treatment and we should also remember his meeting with margery, he wants everything - throne and all

Da Shins Kelly

I don't know really. The way the episode was shot, it was making a few people look suspicious. Could be a conspiracy between a few characters. Although the more I think about it, the more I think it could well be the Tyrells. The grandmother's 'it's an awful thing to kill a man at a wedding' line to Sansa was a bit strange. Although I don't really know what they have to gain from killing him apart from saving Margery from a psychopath for a husband, which they could have done by just refusing to marry her to him.

J. Marston

Oh that was a joy to watch.

Anachrony

They made sure to leave it ambiguous. There were a lot of possible suspects with opportunity and motive. They also left open a number of possible vectors for the poison. People mention the wine, but the cup itself moved around the table a fair bit, and remember that Joffrey was the only one to actually eat the pie, cut with his brand new sword and hand fed to him by Margaery. So many possibilities. Besides the obvious Tyrion and the Tyrells, the new guy in town is dangerous and has reason to hate Lannisters. Even Sansa had access to the cup for a moment. She's too passive to assassinate someone on her own, but she did have that strange meeting with the Fool, in the garden where she goes for privacy from everyone else. And there are plenty of other people out there in the world who could have been responsible too, those are just the most obviously visible ones around.

Kilkenny14

Anachrony wrote: »

They made sure to leave it ambiguous. There were a lot of possible suspects with opportunity and motive. They also left open a number of possible vectors for the poison. People mention the wine, but the cup itself moved around the table a fair bit, and remember that Joffrey was the only one to actually eat the pie, cut with his brand new sword and hand fed to him by Margaery. So many possibilities. Besides the obvious Tyrion and the Tyrells, the new guy in town is dangerous and has reason to hate Lannisters. Even Sansa had access to the cup for a moment. She's too passive to assassinate someone on her own, but she did have that strange meeting with the Fool, in the garden where she goes for privacy from everyone else. And there are plenty of other people out there in the world who could have been responsible too, those are just the most obviously visible ones around.

You're right, this season could take a very Agatha Christie turn, especially with Tyrion's trial.

1 thing I noticed; Lord Bolton must have gotten a **** tonne of gold marrying Frey daughter!

lertsnim

Finally!!!

Doodah7

Hmmm...don't think it was the wine. Joffrey was the only one to eat the pie which would have been much easier to poison.

Although I was gobsmacked to see him die. Would have preferred it to be a more bloody way to go...

So another wedding in GOT and we have another dramatic death!!

LuckyGent88

Quality episode once again.
For some reason, I'm a little disappointed in the kings death. While he is p***k and causes so much pain, he is such an intriguing and compelling character.
Lots of suspects in the audience; as said already the tyrrls grandmother could be the killer due to that beautifully delivered line to Sansa stark, the new city fool, Sansa herself under the table, the red viper who had an obvious hatred of the lannister family and then there is little finger of course who hasn't been seen yet this season.

So hurry the f**k on next week!!

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

It'll be interesting to see the bastard of Bolton go against the Iron Islanders, Theon obviously has a key role to play yet.

Still have no idea where Bran is going and why.

As for the main talking point, surely it can be only either Tyrell (grandmother) or Oberyn Martell? I can't see it being Ser Dontos considering his lowly position. Whoever did it needs backing.
I don't see why it would be the Tyrells though, I thought a marriage was only consummated when the couple ride? So then Margaery won't be the queen? But then again, poison is a woman's choice..
The obvious suspect is Oberyn Martell. He made a very explicit threat last episode and he has a clear hatred for the Lannisters.

One thing for sure is that it's not Tyrion. Cersei hates him so she was obviously going to blame him. Not a hope in hell Tywin will let Tyrion be harmed, especially considering he went to war over him with the Starks.

Very interesting episode, makes me regret not waiting until the penultimate episode to start watching them all. The wait is killing me..

degrassinoel

seven hells

best episode yet,

Jack Gleeson is a quality actor, Sorry to see him go, i loved to hate Joffrey.

DDC1990

For me everything is pointing to Sansa.

The long looks at the camera, the hatred of Joffrey and that scene where the goblet rolls under the table and it is Sansa that hands the Goblet to Tyrion.

I'd imagine a plan was hatched with the Fool. Also she wanted to leave straight after giving the Goblet.

About time she did something worthwhile.

The Starks are not finished yet :P

wp_rathead

I actually thought he was choking on a birds head - remember when he cut opened the pie and it showed that one of the doves had been decapitated. Very clever how episode was done out- and while it was great that he got his comeuppance, his character will be missed

Da Shins Kelly

THFC wrote: »

One thing for sure is that it's not Tyrion. Cersei hates him so she was obviously going to blame him. Not a hope in hell Tywin will let Tyrion be harmed, especially considering he went to war over him with the Starks.

Would Tywin care enough about Tyrion to save him st this stage though? I could imagine Tywin being fine with Tyrion being blamed.

Who is acting king now? Tywin?

StaticAge11

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

Would Tywin care enough about Tyrion to save him st this stage though? I could imagine Tywin being fine with Tyrion being blamed.

Who is acting king now? Tywin?

I think Thommen is (Cersei's next eldest son after Joffery)

Shane St.

So long Joffrey!!!

thefa

Anachrony wrote: »

They made sure to leave it ambiguous. There were a lot of possible suspects with opportunity and motive. They also left open a number of possible vectors for the poison. People mention the wine, but the cup itself moved around the table a fair bit, and remember that Joffrey was the only one to actually eat the pie, cut with his brand new sword and hand fed to him by Margaery. So many possibilities. Besides the obvious Tyrion and the Tyrells, the new guy in town is dangerous and has reason to hate Lannisters. Even Sansa had access to the cup for a moment. She's too passive to assassinate someone on her own, but she did have that strange meeting with the Fool, in the garden where she goes for privacy from everyone else. And there are plenty of other people out there in the world who could have been responsible too, those are just the most obviously visible ones around.

The goblet only gets touched by Tyrion and Sansa before Tyrion brings it to Joffrey who quickly observes that it is empty. If it had been slipped in at this point it would have been noticeable surely.

I doubt very much it was the pie. Why risk poisoning a pie of that size and possibly killing a multitude of important people if Joffrey decides not to have some and die in front of the crowd first. The wine at his table is far more subtle. He doesn't start spluttering until he has his first glass to wash down the pie and then quickly deteriorates when he takes a couple more swigs. A liquid poison probably gets through the system quicker I'd imagine.


Olenna Tyrell is an interesting suspect with all her remarks before and during the poisoning. If she organised it, does that mean Margeary was aware of the plan and knew to keep away from the wine?

Anachrony

thefa wrote: »

The wine at his table is far more subtle. He doesn't start spluttering until he has his first glass to wash down the pie and then quickly deteriorates when he takes a couple more swigs. A liquid poison probably gets through the system quicker I'd imagine.

Except he had already been drinking wine for a while before pouring out the first cup on Tyrion. As you mention, it did seem to get through his system very quickly once it started. I wouldn't call potentially poisoning everyone at the table who isn't a co-conspirator "subtle". It's also a risk that someone else would have had a drink first and alerted everyone to the problem.

I disagree that it necessarily would have been noticed when Joffrey looked in the glass. A small amount of clear liquid coating the side would be nearly indetectable. Secondly, I don't think that's the full chain of custody for the cup. That wasn't the only incident where other people would have had access to it.

DL Saint

The fact that Joffrey was going to get poisoned in season 4 had been spoilered to me. However that didn't hide my surprise at the way it was done. Have to give credit to Jack Gleeson as that was a terrific performance and I presume that was him singing in the closing credits? so fair play to him. Now who's the suspects? Oberyn, Lady Olenna, Ser Dontos, Sansa, Tyrion, Varys, Margaery, Balish, Pycelle...they all had some kind of a motive. Will be interesting to see how this one plays out.

Apart from the death scene this was a really strong episode. More insight into Ramsay, how much of a cnut he is and how Roose Bolton treats his bastard. We also got to see Bran warging and seeing something large flying over Kings Landing? Dragons? yes I think so

Da Shins Kelly

What's up with Bran, by the way? I don't understand where he's going or what he is hoping to achieve.

KerranJast

Another gripping episode. So much dread.

Sadly the ending was kind of spoiled for me with a load of Purple Wedding remarks after the Red Wedding episode and South Park dropped it in as a spoiler during the Black Friday episodes.

That said it was a great example of rising tension.

J. Marston

KerranJast wrote: »

Another gripping episode. So much dread.

Sadly the ending was kind of spoiled for me with a load of Purple Wedding remarks after the Red Wedding episode and South Park dropped it in as a spoiler during the Black Friday episodes.

That said it was a great example of rising tension.

Did they? What a bunch of dicks.

Niall09

DL Saint wrote: »

Have to give credit to Jack Gleeson as that was a terrific performance and I presume that was him singing in the closing credits?

That is actually Sigur Ros singing it. They were also in the episode singing it when Joffrey threw the coins at them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3QW8PVyyNM

Standman

Sad to think that that will be the last time we see Jack Gleeson on screen. What a way to go out though!

Roar

Gutted to see Joffrey go, one of my favourite characters. Had a feeling it was building up to his death, only I thought it would be Tyrion taking the Valerian sword and killing him in a fit of rage. My money's on Margery's grandmother doing it. There's no way Tyrion did it, obviously. It could also be the fool that Sansa ran off with.

Also, the scene where Tyrion repeatedly called Shae a whore in order to get her to leave was heartbreaking.

And I got a nice titter at the cut near the start - it goes from a shot of Theon to a shot of Tyrion being served a sausage. Clever!

GerB40

Standman wrote: »

Sad to think that that will be the last time we see Jack Gleeson on screen. What a way to go out though!

It would be a shame if he does go through with his plan to quit acting. He has a rare ability to play an absolute despicable cúnt while at the same time bein, by all accounts, as nice a chap you're likely to meet.

Most of the actors who worked with him for any length of time said in interviews that he could put people at ease between takes by being funny/sound despite the fact that the scenes were so intense.. Particularly Sophie Turner (Sansa) who has never had anything but good things to say about him which, when you consider how fúcked up their scenes together were, says a lot about young Jack Gleeson.

Regardless, fúck Joffrey. I'm delighted the prîck is gone. Hail the new king Tommen Baratheon, first of his name. Long may his reign last...

lertsnim

Niall09 wrote: »

That is actually Sigur Ros singing it. They were also in the episode singing it when Joffrey threw the coins at them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3QW8PVyyNM

Ha. Thought it was them but then figured "nah, couldn't be".

FortuneChip

I just got invited to a wedding in Westeros.
I might give it a miss.

thefa

Anachrony wrote: »

Except he had already been drinking wine for a while before pouring out the first cup on Tyrion. As you mention, it did seem to get through his system very quickly once it started. I wouldn't call potentially poisoning everyone at the table who isn't a co-conspirator "subtle". It's also a risk that someone else would have had a drink first and alerted everyone to the problem.

I disagree that it necessarily would have been noticed when Joffrey looked in the glass. A small amount of clear liquid coating the side would be nearly indetectable. Secondly, I don't think that's the full chain of custody for the cup. That wasn't the only incident where other people would have had access to it.

You took my ''subtle'' reference out of context by editing out the first lines of that paragraph. I was comparing poisoning the wine to the pie, not a comparision with slipping poison directly into the goblet.

There was multiple tables in the area if I recall correctly. Joffrey and Margaery had their own. I doubt a royal wedding would have had the need to be passing the wine between tables as you suggest. The wine bottle was sitting on his table when Tyrion got it. I also doubt his goblet was doing the rounds either.

Relying on Joffrey to give Tyrion or Sansa an opportunity to discreetly pour a clear poison into his cup (and display great sleight of hand) sounds far more of an opportunistic attempt to poison him than somebody arranging to have poisoned wine delivered to the head table.

RoyalMarine

Not read the thread, but I think it was tyrion's wife, sansa. She was given a vile of liquid previously to kill her self, and I reckon she slipped it into his cup when she got it from under the table.

Lenin Skynard

KerranJast wrote: »

Another gripping episode. So much dread.

Sadly the ending was kind of spoiled for me with a load of Purple Wedding remarks after the Red Wedding episode and South Park dropped it in as a spoiler during the Black Friday episodes.

That said it was a great example of rising tension.

I watched the first three seasons a few months ago in a few marathon sittings so this is my first time watching it week to week. I'm being driven crazy with spoilers. I knew Joffrey was going to die because of a seemingly innocent youtube clip I watched, and today after the episode I decided I may as well read a few of the online reviews of the episode. Stupidly enough my eyes wandered down to the bottom of the page where some twat wrote in the comments section the name of the person responsible for the King's death, right in the top comment.

It's going to be a tough couple of months avoiding spoilers (and failing) for those of us who haven't read the books

Da Shins Kelly

Lenin Skynard wrote: »

I watched the first three seasons a few months ago in a few marathon sittings so this is my first time watching it week to week. I'm being driven crazy with spoilers. I knew Joffrey was going to die because of a seemingly innocent youtube clip I watched, and today after the episode I decided I may as well read a few of the online reviews of the episode. Stupidly enough my eyes wandered down to the bottom of the page where some twat wrote in the comments section the name of the person responsible for the King's death, right in the top comment.

It's going to be a tough couple of months avoiding spoilers (and failing) for those of us who haven't read the books

I just never type Game of Thrones into the search engine, cos I know there'll be loads of spoilers. I had to frantically put my earphones in yesterday when I was in a shop because two lads who had clearly read the books were loudly talking about the upcoming episode.

Burt Macklin

Lenin Skynard wrote: »

It's going to be a tough couple of months avoiding spoilers (and failing) for those of us who haven't read the books

As a book reader, I see people posting spoilers everywhere these days.
My advice: don't read youtube comments, facebook comments or type anything into google (autocomplete can spoil things.)

On a side note, this thread is very entertaining!

GerB40

Lenin Skynard wrote: »

I watched the first three seasons a few months ago in a few marathon sittings so this is my first time watching it week to week. I'm being driven crazy with spoilers. I knew Joffrey was going to die because of a seemingly innocent youtube clip I watched, and today after the episode I decided I may as well read a few of the online reviews of the episode. Stupidly enough my eyes wandered down to the bottom of the page where some twat wrote in the comments section the name of the person responsible for the King's death, right in the top comment.

It's going to be a tough couple of months avoiding spoilers (and failing) for those of us who haven't read the books

I'll try to be as vague as possible here. Don't believe everything you read online. As per usual with GoT/ASoIaF nothing is necessarily as it seems.. The author has a knack for misdirection and what one person perceives to be the truth within the story doesn't make it so..

And what in the name of Jaysus were you reading comments on youtube for?? Avoid comment sections on anything GoT related like the plague.. Enjoy the rest of the season, it'll be a good un...

GottaGetGatt

RoyalMarine wrote: »

Not read the thread, but I think it was tyrion's wife, sansa. She was given a vile of liquid previously to kill her self, and I reckon she slipped it into his cup when she got it from under the table.

It wasn't Sansa and she definitely didn't put anything into the goblet.Sure after receiving it from Tyrion,Joffrey remarks that the cup is empty.Hence there was no liquid in it.So it wasn't them otherwise Joffrey would have seen the poison.

The only thing that bothers me is that if the jug was poisoned then shouldnt it have killed others drinking from it.

I reckon it was the grandmother,she did comment on the remark about killing a man at a wedding

Da Shins Kelly

Granny Tyrell also seems to be pretty peeved about having to pay for so much of the wedding, and wasn't there a conversation between her and Sansa in an earlier episode where Sansa tells her that Joffrey is a monster or something like that? Maybe she's trying to save Margery. And aren't the Tyrells historically supportive of the Targaryens, not the Lannisters? As in, they supported them whenever the mad king was usurped?

Also, it was Littlefinger who brought the Tyrells into the fold, wasn't it? So maybe he does have something to with orchestrating the whole thing.

It seems like Tyrion could end up taking the fall though, regardless.

RoyalMarine

GottaGetGatt wrote: »

It wasn't Sansa and she definitely didn't put anything into the goblet.Sure after receiving it from Tyrion,Joffrey remarks that the cup is empty.Hence there was no liquid in it.So it wasn't them otherwise Joffrey would have seen the poison.

The only thing that bothers me is that if the jug was poisoned then shouldnt it have killed others drinking from it.

I reckon it was the grandmother,she did comment on the remark about killing a man at a wedding

maybe joffey's remark that it was empty was due to the fact that tyrion didn't pour anything into it?

There was also that look Tyrion and Sansa had together under the table. Tyrion looked pretty serious when she gave it to him.

Sansa, of all people has more cause to kill him than anyone else that was there.

Da Shins Kelly

On a side note, I enjoyed Oberyn's back and forth with Tywin and Cersei. He seems to have a lot of unfinished business with them. Is his being in King's Landing not a little bit dangerous for him?

Brendan Filone

DerekDGoldfish

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

On a side note, I enjoyed Oberyn's back and forth with Tywin and Cersei. He seems to have a lot of unfinished business with them. Is his being in King's Landing not a little bit dangerous for him?

Well they have one of Cercei's daughters in Dorn so the Lanisters would be wary of harming him.

GottaGetGatt

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

On a side note, I enjoyed Oberyn's back and forth with Tywin and Cersei. He seems to have a lot of unfinished business with them. Is his being in King's Landing not a little bit dangerous for him?

Well from the season 4 trailer,it shows him fighting someone.Looks like the Mountain.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

Would Tywin care enough about Tyrion to save him st this stage though? I could imagine Tywin being fine with Tyrion being blamed.

Who is acting king now? Tywin?

Tywin has used the line "because you're Lannister" numerous times already. He will not let Tyrion die, especially as he is the key to the North. And I can't imagine him having had any particular like for Joffrey. The only threat to Tyrion is Cersei.

Anyone know who the king/queen regent is now? Tommen can't be king until he comes of age. I don't think it can be Margeary as the marriage wasn't consummated (i.e. they didn't ride). So surely Cersei is the queen regent, with Tywin obviously running the show behind closed doors?

DL Saint

THFC wrote: »

Anyone know who the king/queen regent is now? Tommen can't be king until he comes of age. I don't think it can be Margeary as the marriage wasn't consummated (i.e. they didn't ride). So surely Cersei is the queen regent, with Tywin obviously running the show behind closed doors?

Gendry But in all seriousness, I think it will just be Cersei as Queen Regent...

K4t

DL Saint wrote: »

Gendry But in all seriousness, I think it will just be Cersei as Queen Bitch...

...

arch_stanton

I knew something was due to happen today due to the references to purple wedding popping up all morning. When the huge pie came out for a minute I was sure Shae was in it, triggering Tyrion to kill Joffrey with his shiny new sword.

thefa

Enjoyed the Ramsay Snow scenes. First scene made him look like more of a psycho and the second with his father showed that there's some brains to him too but a strained relationship since he's not accepted as a Bolton. It a nice change from just the torture scenes from last season.

Felt a little sorry for theon the traitor when he heard of robbs death. Should have cut ramsays throat to make up for some of what he'd done.

irishfeen

For someone who never read the books and has escaped spoilers that was some surprise to get - a great episode, great acting -10/10, up there with one of the best.