Season 4; Episode 2: 'The Lion and the Rose'; *Have NOT* Read the Books

Artful_Badger

kryogen wrote: »

Nope, pretty sure he drank from it after that and was fine, it was only after the cup was left down unattended in from of the Oleanna that the trouble arrived

Dont think he did, he commanded Tyrion to kneel when he handed the cup. There was a bit of a stand off and then Margaery announced the pie was coming, took the goblet and laid it down on the end of the table where Olenna was. Far enough away from her from what I seen to make it hard to put something in it without being noticed considering everyone would be facing that direction as Joffrey cut the pie.

kryogen

Artful_Badger wrote: »

Dont think he did, he commanded Tyrion to kneel when he handed the cup. There was a bit of a stand off and then Margaery announced the pie was coming, took the goblet and laid it down on the end of the table where Olenna was. Far enough away from her from what I seen to make it hard to put something in it without being noticed considering everyone would be facing that direction as Joffrey cut the pie.

I must re watch it so, was sure he took another sip after getting it back when Sansa had it..........

It was during the cake cutting that I assume the poison was put in, which again led me to the old woman, while everyone was distracted, but I may have to take another look to be sure he did take a sip after Sansa touched it, didn't appear that she did anything other then pick it up and give it to Tyrion on first watch

Artful_Badger

kryogen wrote: »

I must re watch it so, was sure he took another sip after getting it back when Sansa had it..........

It was during the cake cutting that I assume the poison was put in, which again led me to the old woman, while everyone was distracted, but I may have to take another look to be sure he did take a sip after Sansa touched it, didn't appear that she did anything other then pick it up and give it to Tyrion on first watch

No you're right he did take a sip, I just re-watched it here. But Margaery also put it down on the corner of the kings table and not in front of Olenna as I first thought, it was only the camera angle that made it look like it was in front of Olenna I think. She stood when the pie came out but she'd have had to have moved to put something in it by the looks of it.

thefa

Artful_Badger wrote: »

No you're right he did take a sip, I just re-watched it here. But Margaery also put it down on the corner of the kings table and not in front of Olenna as I first thought, it was only the camera angle that made it look like it was in front of Olenna I think. She stood when the pie came out but she'd have had to have moved to put something in it by the looks of it.

Yes, and it would be just to the side of the crowds focus (Joffrey) and there's a Kingsguard standing guard right behind the King's table facing out who would see anyone attempting to go near the table.

Artful_Badger

thefa wrote: »

Yes, and it would be just to the side of the crowds focus (Joffrey) and there's a Kingsguard standing right behind the King's table facing out.

Yep, kingsguards at the back wall either side of the kings table. There's no way Olenna puts anything in that cup without being seen.

Which to me leaves three alternatives.

1. Margaery put it in the goblet when she took it from Joffrey as the pie came out.

2. Sansa dropped something into the goblet before handing it to Tyrion with Joffrey swallowing it when he drained the goblet.

3. The pie was poisoned as they knew Joffrey would be first to eat it.

Sulla Felix

rok wrote: »

Agreed, the purists/book fans may disagree but I'm sick to sh1t of the Bran Jojen and Meera storyline, makes for crap viewing.

I'm a reader and they make for crap reading too, I assure you.

Permabear

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thefa

Permabear wrote: »

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I think the necklace indicates she's being used as a pawn in others' plan and being set up to be framed. Why would a would be killer wear the poison in plain sight when she could have easily concealed one of the jewels somehwere on her dress? I thought it was clear from her encounter with Dontos that she was not part of any plan at that stage that made the necklace anything more than just a token of Dontos' appreciation.

Dontos telling her they have to leave now makes me feel like he was well aware of the plan given his timing. He may have been coerced into getting her to wear the necklace but is now trying to get her out of Kings Landing(as a genuine token of gratitude) as she looks guilty whether she stays or leaves if she is being framed.

Degag

Blay wrote: »

Jaime and Barristan were the only competent one's in Robert's kingsguard, now one is maimed and the other gone.

And The Hound ? Or was he just Joffreys bodyguard?

Mickeroo

Degag wrote: »

And The Hound ? Or was he just Joffreys bodyguard?

Yeah, he wasn't kingsguard.

Witcher

Degag wrote: »

And The Hound ? Or was he just Joffreys bodyguard?

Yeah, he was KG under Joffrey for a while.

Actually forgot all about him, he was definitely the deadliest of Joffrey's KG. Jaime was better than him but he was a bit tied up while the Hound was in it so he was the best of those actually with the king.

Very, very dangerous man the Hound.

ShoulderChip

Loras left in a huff because of the play and the portrayal of Renly,
OR
He left to get out of there before Joff took the poison???

Mickeroo

Blay wrote: »

Yeah, he was KG under Joffrey for a while.

Actually forgot all about him, he was definitely the deadliest of Joffrey's KG. Jaime was better than him but he was a bit tied up while the Hound was in it so he was the best of those actually with the king.

Very, very dangerous man the Hound.

Oh yeah you're right, completely forgot because he refused to wear the armour.

Dan_Solo

Permabear wrote: »

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Great theory! Though I think Margery would've made sure to take at least a few bites to be 100% free of suspicion then?

Permabear

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Grimebox

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Great theory! Though I think Margery would've made sure to take at least a few bites to be 100% free of suspicion then?

Given how heavy handed and abrupt the justice is in their world, I don't think Margery would need to do such a thing. They already have all the evidence they need by Tyrion and Sansa handling the goblet. I think Cersai has already screwed over her own family by accusing Tyrion.

storker

SherlockWatson wrote: »

But surely they'd plan it for after the marriage is consummated no?

I suspect Cersei, just to stop her wedding going ahead, and to become queen regent.

Interesting theory. She had already found out that she couldn't control Joffrey. She might see Tommen as being more malleable. With the possibility of framing Tyrion and denying the throne to Margery, bumping off Joff ticks all sorts of boxes for her.

That business with the leftovers for the poor was good. Cersei isn't just content to be a bitch; she works at it.

storker

nibtrix wrote: »

In the last episode the Red Woman said he still has a part to play, so Stannis cancelled his execution

Maybe he'll be sent on a quest to find Stannis a personality...

storker

tallpaul wrote: »

So another wedding in GOT and we have another dramatic death!!

Still a dull wedding by Dothraki standards, though...

Dan_Solo

storker wrote: »

Interesting theory. She had already found out that she couldn't control Joffrey. She might see Tommen as being more malleable. With the possibility of framing Tyrion

This could only have been a happy coincidence, as nobody could've planned Tyrion would be near Joff's cup. I reckon Tyrion will be exonerated when he points out to Tywen that he actually tried to leave long before the poisoning.
(Tywen will decide who's guilty or not I'm assuming)

Degag

Blay wrote: »

Yeah, he was KG under Joffrey for a while.

Actually forgot all about him, he was definitely the deadliest of Joffrey's KG. Jaime was better than him but he was a bit tied up while the Hound was in it so he was the best of those actually with the king.

Very, very dangerous man the Hound.

Maybe I'm biased (and I'm a fan of both characters but The Hound is my favourite) but I think The Hound would take him.

Mickeroo wrote: »

Oh yeah you're right, completely forgot because he refused to wear the armour.

Why was that - can't remember the scene?

witnessmenow

80s Child wrote: »

It's my opinion dude, you don't need to agree with it..

fair enough, but it sure is a crazy one :pac:

coL

Looking at the clip above and following who comes into contact with the cup closely, is it only me or does it look like Margery slips something into the cup as she takes it from Joffrey at the 3.28/3.29 mark?

Its hard to tell as the guys carrying the pie cross the shot (on purpose?) just at that moment. Also I am not sure why she would do it at the wedding as she would have full access and loads of opportunities to do it once they were married.

Like I say it doesnt make much sense for her to do it or to do it at the wedding but she does seem to be one of the few that had the opportunity to put something into the wine (if it was the wine). Plus in the lead up to it (from the 3 minute mark and in particular at 3.13) while he is being Joffrey (a p@?!k) she looks like she is struggling with some kind of internal decision/conflict.

Lady Olenna seems to be too far away from it and Sansa is too timid/clueless to do it without being noticed. I don't think Tyrion has it in him much and all as he hates Joffrey plus why would he put himself in such a position as a suspect.

The above assumes of course that the pie wasnt poisoned but I consider that unlikely as there might be too much collateral damage although like another poster said it might be two poisons working in combination (pie and wine).

Mr. CooL ICE

Also, Margaery handles the pie slice and feeds Joffrey the first bite. Would be easier to slip something onto the pie there than into the cup IMO.

Aaagh, so many variables, so many theories.

seligehgit

Margaerys appeared to place the goblet on a table adjacent to that of Oleanna's,tricky for her to place the poison unnoticed?
Does anybody think Sansa will eventually fall in love with Tyrion?

Permabear

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coL

Permabear wrote: »

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That is true but I was assuming that in light of the potential prize (her being "The Queen") the Tyrells would be prepared to endure a little hardship and risk Margery's wellbeing a little.

It being a calculated risk as Joffrey would be unlikely to do anything too extreme to his new wife if only because of the novelty and him not being sick/bored of her yet. It would have made a lot more sense to consumate the marriage and for her to get knocked up as quickly as possible and then arrange for Joffrey to have an "unfortunate accident". Same end result but she is the mother of the future king.

rok

Just wondering about Margaery and Oleanna's potential motives - does this not move Margaery down the pecking order as Cersei is Quenn regent?

coL

Permabear wrote: »

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That is true but I was assuming that in light of the potential prize (her being "The Queen") the Tyrells would be prepared to endure a little hardship and risk Margery's wellbeing a little.

It being a calculated risk as Joffrey would be unlikely to do anything too extreme to his new wife if only because of the novelty and him not being sick/bored of her yet. It would have made a lot more sense to consummate the marriage and for her to get knocked up as quickly as possible and then arrange for Joffrey to have an "unfortunate accident". Same end result but she is the mother of the future king.

Bacchus

Was chatting to the wife about this yesterday. We've settled on Cersei being behind it. She has the most to gain I think. It's been pretty clear for a long time that she is not happy about giving up her title as Queen Regent and would love nothing more than to knock Margery down a peg (she made idle threats to her didn't she at Tyrion's wedding). The fact that she was also being married off to the Tyrell fella infuriated her more. You can see how upset she was in episode 1 that Jamie took too long getting back.

So, I believe she hatched the plan to kill Joffrey so she could keep her position of power. She's made no secret that she knows he's a little c*nt and I think when push comes to shove, she'll put herself first. Also, there's a little bit of history with her and poison already i.e. during the big battle she was going to poison her other son.

The most telling thing is the conversation with the Grand Meister (sp?). She send him away quiet conveniently when he was possibly the only person who could have saved Joffrey. Also her comment "your QUEEN is telling you to feed the dogs" is an odd thing to say.

Finally, I think Jamie is in on it too. His conversation with the Tyrell fella "You'll never marry her". I think that was a knowing comment.

Dubh Geannain

SherlockWatson wrote: »

But surely they'd plan it for after the marriage is consummated no?

I suspect Cersei

+1

She was losing her grasp on power, which she obviously places as a priority above family.

She gets her power back and gets to shaft Tyrion and Margery as an added bonus.

@Bacchus: I hadn't considered some of the things you mentioned. Your post just reinforces my assumption. I had been trying to figure out the sending of the Old Geser to the kitchen of all people. She could have sent anyone.

Bacchus

Didn't think of that yeah, she gets the added bonus of implicating Tyrion in the murder too! Win win win for her really.

Saganist

The Big question on Cersei though is when did she have an opportunity to get the poison into King Jeofferys goblet ?

I'm loving this thread btw..

Bacchus

Saganist wrote: »

The Big question on Cersei though is when did she have an opportunity to get the poison into King Jeofferys goblet ?

I'm loving this thread btw..

I'd have to watch it again, watching her in particular to see if there's any moment where she could have. However, we're all assuming it was the wine or the pie. Could have been something else. Or maybe someone else is in on it with her.... not many candidates at that table though... if any. Could Sansa have been in on it too?

How about this...

Ser Dontos is instructed (by Cersei) to approach Sansa and gains her trust with gift of the necklace. Sansa strikes a with Cersei (via Ser Dontos, who also hates Joffrey) to slip poison to Joffrey in return for her freedom. So we have a conspiracy involving Sansa, Ser Dontos and Cersei (possibly Jamie). Cersei's actions fit in the episode. As do Sansa's. Ser Dontos is then ready to go at that moments notice as soon as Joffrey starts choking.

Dubh Geannain

Had a quick watch again of the closing sequence.

Continuity Error spotted: Grand Maester is sitting back in the crowd after he was supposedly sent to the kitchen. He's seen applauding the dwarf mock fight.

The wine bottle that Tyrion uses to fill the goblet is positioned right in front of Cersie and the camera even pans to show her looking at him as he picks it up from in front of her.

Bacchus

Dubh Geannain wrote: »

Had a quick watch again of the closing sequence.

Continuity Error spotted: Grand Maester is sitting back in the crowd after he was supposedly sent to the kitchen. He's seen applauding the dwarf mock fight.

The wine bottle that Tyrion uses to fill the goblet is positioned right in front of Cersie and the camera even pans to show her looking at him as he picks it up from in front of her.

Hmmm, could this mean that, from a filming perspective, they shot all those "dwarf" scenes and then realised that they could have a scene with Cersei getting rid of the Grand Maester. Only reason they'd do this would be to strengthen the "Cersei did it" case. Just a thought... probably over thinking it at this point

Artful_Badger

Could just mean it didnt take long for Pycelle to pass on Cersei's orders.

Dubh Geannain

Artful_Badger wrote: »

Could just mean it didnt take long for Pycelle to pass on Cersei's orders.

Unless she was speaking in code, she did say she didn't want to see him again (or words to that effect). My money's on a continuity error. These things happen after all.

Dan_Solo

What the hell is Tywen up to throughout all this? The wedding is obviously turning into a complete disaster even before Joff gets poisoned. Why is he standing idly by as all his allies see what an utter lunatic they've backed?
Maybe both Tywen and Oleanna are in on it!

Artful_Badger

Dubh Geannain wrote: »

Unless she was speaking in code, she did say she didn't want to see him again (or words to that effect). My money's on a continuity error. These things happen after all.

She didnt say she didnt want to see him again. She said the fact he was in her presence annoyed her and she wanted him to leave her presence, go to the kitchens and tell them to give the food to the dogs. She also had been showing her distaste of him on other scenes so just seems to me like she was just being harsh with him and ordering him to inform the staff to give the food to the dogs rather than meaning that he was to leave and not come back.

mayordenis

From another perspective Cersei can almost be absolved, if as you would expect she was doing this whole thing with the food going to the dogs to basically **** with Joffrey and Margery, then she clearly wasn't expecting anything untoward to happen, she was playing the long game. Trying to show that she is still the boss etc.

Naydy

thefa wrote: »

I think the necklace indicates she's being used as a pawn in others' plan and being set up to be framed. Why would a would be killer wear the poison in plain sight when she could have easily concealed one of the jewels somehwere on her dress? I thought it was clear from her encounter with Dontos that she was not part of any plan at that stage that made the necklace anything more than just a token of Dontos' appreciation.
.

I'm confused about this part, I watched the episode twice and didn't pick up any of this, can someone explain?


The first time I watched it, I thought it was Tywin. But now my money is on Granny Tyrell. When I watched the episode a second time, there is a scene with her and Tywin where she not so subtly reminds him that the Lannisters will still need the Tyrells money after the wedding, which makes me think she could easily renegotiate more betrothals between her grandchildren and the Lannisters.

I think she knows that Joffrey was liable to get killed by someone sooner or later, or somehow become a liability in other ways, and would rather tie her (only?) granddaughter with a more promising king (i'm assuming Joffrey's brother is heir, and he seems easier to manipulate, not to mention not a sadistic maniac). Plus she seemed completely disgusted by Joffrey and i'd say she was concerned about Maregery's welfare too.

Artful_Badger

Naydy wrote: »

I'm confused about this part, I watched the episode twice and didn't pick up any of this, can someone explain?

Dontos showed up in the previous episode and gave Sansa the necklace she was wearing at the wedding. He also showed up when Joffrey started to cough and splutter and said "If you want to live we have to go now". So there's a theory that the poison was in one of the jewels on the necklace. With Olenna Tyrell (Margaery's grandmother) behind it for the reasons you pointed out.

Its a theory though that has as much problems as any other theory. Why have it on the necklace other than to set up Sansa, why set up Sansa ? It didnt seem like anyone other than Sansa herself had an opportunity to get anything into the cup and she didnt seem party to any plot. If she was party to it then there would be no reason for her to think she'd be able get near Joffrey to poison him or any need for the necklace to contain the poison.

It'll probably turn out there was several different plots to kill him and all the poison mixed causing his head to start leaking which is why everyone was so shocked.

Naydy

Thank you for explaining :-)

Artful_Badger wrote: »

It'll probably turn out there was several different plots to kill him and all the poison mixed causing his head to start leaking which is why everyone was so shocked.

I'd love if this was true. I've a friend who is convinced that Tywin laced the sword with poison knowing that Joffrey would use it to cut the pie :-D

jamo2oo9

There are two possible causes of Joffery's death, the pie and the cup. The pie was only eaten by Joffery but I believe that pie isn't only for the king but for everyone so it's highly unlikely the pie as it could kill many others like all of the Lannisters and Tyrells.

The cup is the most likely to cause Joffery's death. I don't know if it's me or not, but wasn't it a different cup that Tyrion handed to Joffery after Sansa handed it to him. My guess is it that the fool dosed it with poison and when the cup rolled under the table, Sansa swapped the cups thus framing Tyrion for the murder of the king. Plus, the fool said to Sansa when Joffery was choking, "if you want to live, you must leave now".


Sansa and the fool are the most likely cause of the king's death.




Other than that, I am fúcking glad he's dead. He was such a prick to Sansa and that midget play in the wedding was obviously for Sansa. Thank god she did something finally!

mayordenis

The midget play was for everyone, it had Renly riding around on Loras for **** sake basically having a go at Loras, his now wife Margery and the Tyrells in gerneral,
having it be midgets was always going to be a dig at his uncle,
of course as you say chopping off Robb's head was mostly an ode to Sansa but equally there are so many disgusted at the whole red wedding fiasco that he was basically goading everyone.

Naydy

jamo2oo9 wrote: »

Sansa and the fool are the most likely cause of the king's death.

Other than that, I am fúcking glad he's dead. He was such a prick to Sansa and that midget play in the wedding was obviously for Sansa. Thank god she did something finally!

I think you're right about the fool knowing in advance, but Sansa poisoning Joffrey just goes against everything we know of her character up until this point for me. She arguably suffered most at his hands, but that also makes her a good scapegoat seeing how he has publicly humilated her again and again. Perhaps the fool was instructed to whisk her away just to make her look even more guilty.

I'm glad he's dead too, was hoping he would get knocked down a peg or two before he died, but ah well

wp_rathead

Imo the film writers are very clever, and have it done so that it seems to be The Fool and Sansa's plan.. Would not be surprised to have them do that as a curve ball or something - argh this show messes with your head ha

Have a feeling Little Finger is involved somehow

jamo2oo9 wrote: »

There are two possible causes of Joffery's death, the pie and the cup.

I re watched episode there, and when he started choking/poisoned he asked for more wine - that could indicate the pie was doing something to him..?

I still think he could have just chocked on the dead dove that he killed cutting open the pie - I'll be in America this Sunday so I'll get to see GoT on HBO :pac:

thefa

Bacchus wrote: »

Was chatting to the wife about this yesterday. We've settled on Cersei being behind it. She has the most to gain I think. It's been pretty clear for a long time that she is not happy about giving up her title as Queen Regent and would love nothing more than to knock Margery down a peg (she made idle threats to her didn't she at Tyrion's wedding). The fact that she was also being married off to the Tyrell fella infuriated her more. You can see how upset she was in episode 1 that Jamie took too long getting back.

So, I believe she hatched the plan to kill Joffrey so she could keep her position of power. She's made no secret that she knows he's a little c*nt and I think when push comes to shove, she'll put herself first. Also, there's a little bit of history with her and poison already i.e. during the big battle she was going to poison her other son.

The most telling thing is the conversation with the Grand Meister (sp?). She send him away quiet conveniently when he was possibly the only person who could have saved Joffrey. Also her comment "your QUEEN is telling you to feed the dogs" is an odd thing to say.

Finally, I think Jamie is in on it too. His conversation with the Tyrell fella "You'll never marry her". I think that was a knowing comment.

What Cersei has made clear is that she knew Joffrey had become a terror but loved him regardless. See videos.

Yes, Margaery is a threat because she is a strong woman who Cersei can't control and was due to gain more power than Cersei. Given that she loves her kids, I don't see why the logic would be to kill her own son rather than have Magaery killed which could ruin the ties with the Tyrells and possibly lead to Joffrey forming a new marriage pact with somebody who she can control.

Once the poison was in his system, Joffrey looked doomed given how fast it hit him and I doubt Pycelle was bringing him back from the brink unless he happened to be keeping the right antidote close at hand. That scene with Pycelle just looked like her showing her frustration as she was losing her grip on power and Margaery has influence over Joffrey which she hasn't had in a while. Joffrey had little time for the plebs until Margaery came along.

The poison she almost gave Tommen isn't relevant given the circumstances at the time. She thought enemy troops were about to come through the door and was going to spare them being taken hostage or killed. Poison would be seen as a less cruel and hands on end from a mothers perspective than say a blade (for example) I would think.


From1:40 on. Only three episodes ago.

From

Da Shins Kelly

Yeah, I don't think Cersei was in on it. She has made it clear numerous times that she puts her children before anything. She knew Joffrey was a loose cannon, but she wouldn't have killed him, I don't think.