Yellow card followed by a black card

flasher0030

Just a quick question in relation to the practical workings of the black card system.

Was at a match yesterday where one of our players got a yellow card, and later received a black card. Of course he is sent off, but when we tried to replace him with another player, the ref refused to let the new player on - and claimed that a black card which follows a yellow card is a red card offence, and the offending player cannot be replaced.

To be honest, the ref didn't seem sure, and tried to sound convincing. His logic was that "a black card is worse than a yellow card, and therefore a yellow and black is worse than 2 yellows. On that basis, the player should at least get a red".

Was he right?

Yavvy

yep

Yavvy

MayoSalmon

So complicated and so unncessary.

Cynical foul should be a yellow....another cynical foul should also be a yellow...resulting in a RED.

There was nothing wrong with the previous system...it just was not implemented correctly.

Yavvy

according to the CCCCCCCC the black card has been a successful innovation and its not just about cynical fowling - there are 5 offenses covered. Apparently Red cards and fowling are down while scoring is up .. seems legit.

Hesh's Umpire

Ref was right. It's not really that complicated once we get used to it.

MayoSalmon

Yavvy wrote: »

according to the CCCCCCCC the black card has been a successful innovation and its not just about cynical fowling - there are 5 offenses covered. Apparently Red cards and fowling are down while scoring is up .. seems legit.

I am well aware of the 5 offenses.


#1 The pull down...give a Yellow card...repeated send him off.

#2 Deliberate Trip...give a Yellow card...repeated send him off.

#3 Deliberate body collide...give a Yellow card...repeated send him off.

#4 Verbal abuse to a teammate/opponent ...give a Yellow card...repeated send him off.

#5 Remonstrate with a Match Official.....give a Yellow card...repeated send him off.

Just enforce the bloody rules without extra complication.

elefant

I don't think it's too complicated at all, and it should help cut out cynical fouls, especially at the end of games when a lead is being protected.


I've two questions I've been wondering about though, and maybe this a good place to ask them:
1) The pull down. Is it necessary for the player to be pulled down to the ground? If it's just a pull back of the jersey and the player isn't brought to ground can it be a black card by the rules?
2) I don't see how cynical pushing is covered under this. If a player is running onto a ball, one on one with the goalkeeper, and he's shunted in the back onto the ground, can it be a black card? Obviously it's very cynical, but it doesn't fall under one of the instances mentioned.


What do ye reckon?

Yavvy

Simple enough alright cept in practice I think there are times when a yellow card isnt enough or there are times when a Red is just too harsh. SO the black card is a decent middle ground. Having said that I would be fine if at the end of this review period they revert back to yellow / black system.

I think it actually enables Ref's to enforce the rules with additional flexability so as to account for what is actually happening and the 'spirit' of the game

Yavvy

@elefant I think you are correct that in practice the cynical push in the back or the cynical foul without a pull down are not directly legislated for but I think they will be added in at some point. However i have just this weekend seen a ref give a black card for exactly that and no one seemed to complain too much. A player was through on goal and was pushed in the back and lost balance. Black card was given.

MayoSalmon

Yavvy wrote: »

Simple enough alright cept in practice I think there are times when a yellow card isnt enough or there are times when a Red is just too harsh. SO the black card is a decent middle ground. Having said that I would be fine if at the end of this review period they revert back to yellow / black system.

I think it actually enables Ref's to enforce the rules with additional flexability so as to account for what is actually happening and the 'spirit' of the game

This is the inherent problem.

What is the spirit of the game??

This ridculous lark of people roughing it up with each other just for the sake of it does nothing for the game.

Lads passing the ball of and then getting cleaned bodychecked is complete nonsense and if anything is thuggish in nature.

Emphasis should be put on skill and tough but fair play.

Boom__Boom

elefant wrote: »

1) The pull down. Is it necessary for the player to be pulled down to the ground? If it's just a pull back of the jersey and the player isn't brought to ground can it be a black card by the rules?

No it can't - happened in a Kerry game in the league - to Daithi Casey. His jersey was blatantly pulled when running through but because he was strong enough not to go to ground it wasnt a black card.

http://hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=211152

In the same game Griffin's back card was overturned on the exact same technicality in that while Griffin had cynically held back Freeman he hadn't pulled him to the ground. Freeman pretty much crumpled to the crowd without any pressure from Griffin and because of this Griffin's black was overturned.

There's a need to refine the rule further to make it any pull = black card.

the exact wording of the offences is as follows

Cynical Behaviour Fouls
1. Deliberately pull down an opponent.
2. Deliberately trip an opponent with the hand(s), arm, leg or foot.
3. Deliberately body collide with an opponent after he has played the ball away or for the purpose of taking him out of a movement of play.
4. Threaten or to use abusive or provocative language or gestures to an opponent or a teammate.
5. Remonstrate in an aggressive manner with a Match Official.

I would say change 1 to make it Deliberately pull or catch hold of an opponent.

In the case of your 2nd scenario I think a black card could be given under the second part after the or bit of part 3 if it's read as Deliberately body collide with an opponent after he has played the ball away or Deliberately body collide with an opponent for the purpose of taking him out of a movement of play.

Not sure if I'm explaining myself clearly.

Yavvy

The spirit of the game ...there are times when a ref has had to send a guy off when perhaps it was a little harsh but the rules is the rules. This sending off would have a dramatic effect on the game and so seems even more harsh. Thats an example of what I mean.

Im not sure what your comment about roughing it up means ? totally agree about the off the ball tackle and I think the black card is a great option for ruling this out totally. Come to think of it I have seen little or none of it this year where as in previous years it would be rampant in the early stages of a game.

im not sure how the current emphasis isnt on skill and fair play ..were you suggesting that it wasn't ?

GBXI

Yavvy wrote: »

@elefant I think you are correct that in practice the cynical push in the back or the cynical foul without a pull down are not directly legislated for but I think they will be added in at some point. However i have just this weekend seen a ref give a black card for exactly that and no one seemed to complain too much. A player was through on goal and was pushed in the back and lost balance. Black card was given.

Not that I've popped in here just to have a rant at the GAA, but it shows you how incompetent the administrators are when this wasn't originally written into the new rules. I've lost count of the amount of goal-scoring opportunities that have been denied by cynical pushes, jersey pulls, or poor tackling. Makes me really think that the rule changes were heavily influenced by Joe Brolly's rant against Sean Cavanagh last year.

keane2097

MayoSalmon wrote: »

So complicated and so unncessary.

Cynical foul should be a yellow....another cynical foul should also be a yellow...resulting in a RED.

There was nothing wrong with the previous system...it just was not implemented correctly.

Do you really find it "so complicated"? A child could understand it.

MayoSalmon

Yavvy wrote: »

Im not sure what your comment about roughing it up means ?

im not sure how the current emphasis isnt on skill and fair play ..were you suggesting that it wasn't ?

I am referring to physicality just for the sake of physicality.

For instance...when a substitute comes onto the pitch. He runs on and the first thing he does (ball still dead) is some type of joustling/bumping match with his opponent.

I wouldn't say the emphasis has always been on skill and fair play at all.

The emphasis in recent years has been on superb fitness, speed, and physicality. Take Aidan O'Shea for example. Extremely limited footballer the guy is a brute and can catch a high ball. That's it.

But with that said and done I do think this is finally changing hence we have the introduction of the black card now etc.

GBXI

MayoSalmon wrote: »

The emphasis in recent years has been on superb fitness, speed, and physicality. Take Aidan O'Shea for example. Extremely limited footballer the guy is a brute and can catch a high ball. That's it.

This is a bit off-topic but that is a ridiculous comment. Extremely limited is completely untrue, he has oodles of ability - the only thing between him and a footballer of the year award (other than being on the winning team!) is to improve his decision making some what.

Yavvy

I have to disagree about AOS only being able to catch and be strong. More to him than that, not quite as dynamic as MDMC but then he looks like his going to fall over at any moment and has all kinds of silly jump things he does. also not the marksman that Sean Cav is but Sean goes missing for periods of games too.

I think Adain is a decent footballer and plays to his strengths.

MayoSalmon

GBXI wrote: »

This is a bit off-topic but that is a ridiculous comment. Extremely limited is completely untrue, he has oodles of ability - the only thing between him and a footballer of the year award (other than being on the winning team!) is to improve his decision making some what.

I'm sorry but he is limited. He doesn't cover ground well enough, his fitness is questionale at times and doesn't score enough for me.

It is funny that you mentioned footballer of the year because McAuley is the complete opposite of Aidan. McAuley is fast, great stamina and can score.

Oodles of abilty, no. He has oodles of strength and determination...NOT ABILITY!!

GBXI

MayoSalmon wrote: »

I'm sorry but he is limited. He doesn't cover ground well enough, his fitness is questionale at times and doesn't score enough for me.

It is funny that you mentioned footballer of the year because McAuley is the complete opposite of Aidan. McAuley is fast, great stamina and can score.

Oodles of abilty, no. He has oodles of strength and determination...NOT ABILITY!!

He's a fcuking All Star mid-fielder. Arguably the most important player on arguably the 2nd best team in the country. He covers as much ground as any other mid-fielder and there's absolutely nothing wrong with his fitness.

No doubt MDMA is faster and more athletic - but O'Shea can score just as well. O'Shea played very well at full-forward at the age of 18 in his 1st full year at senior level, and I'd argue he's a lot more natural than MDMA when it comes to kicking points. Easily as good a 'footballer' as McAuley.

flasher0030

Thanks for the answer to my opening post. Very useful.

I'm not sure how the thread led onto a battering of Aidan O'Shea's footie ability. I'd like to apologise to him for starting the thread, just in case he ever bumps in to me at Everleigh Garden nightclub. Ah no, that won't happen. He's still barred!!!

Hammer Archer

MayoSalmon wrote: »

So complicated and so unncessary.

Cynical foul should be a yellow....another cynical foul should also be a yellow...resulting in a RED.

There was nothing wrong with the previous system...it just was not implemented correctly.

The previous system was implemented correctly. The problem was some teams were making an art of cynical fouling. A player would take one for the team if the opposition were breaking through and get a yellow. The next time, a different player would do exactly the same thing. And so on and so forth. I remember a game a few years ago where one team ended up with (I think) 8 yellows and at least 5 of them were for black card offences now.
I think the rule certainly needs tweaking, especially for reasons already mentioned. But overall I'm happy enough with it so far.

kilmac14

Was at a match over the weekend, where a current Cork Senior panelist punched a fella into the chest and was only given a yellow, while he teammate got a blackcard for a jersey tug. How is that right that a fella can punch a fella in the chest and stay on the pitch, while an innocent jersey tug means a player has to leave the pitch....madness absolutely mad. Plus its fine at intercounty level were refs are confident with the rules, not so fine at Junior A, B, C, D level were refs arent excatly up to speed with the rules....

Boom__Boom

kilmac14 wrote: »

Was at a match over the weekend, where a current Cork Senior panelist punched a fella into the chest and was only given a yellow, while he teammate got a blackcard for a jersey tug. How is that right that a fella can punch a fella in the chest and stay on the pitch, while an innocent jersey tug means a player has to leave the pitch....madness absolutely mad. Plus its fine at intercounty level were refs are confident with the rules, not so fine at Junior A, B, C, D level were refs arent excatly up to speed with the rules....

Bit in bold is key - intercounty players always and ever get a bit more leeway from refs, and on occasion it gets completely ridiculous

bruschi

kilmac14 wrote: »

Was at a match over the weekend, where a current Cork Senior panelist punched a fella into the chest and was only given a yellow, while he teammate got a blackcard for a jersey tug. How is that right that a fella can punch a fella in the chest and stay on the pitch, while an innocent jersey tug means a player has to leave the pitch....madness absolutely mad. Plus its fine at intercounty level were refs are confident with the rules, not so fine at Junior A, B, C, D level were refs arent excatly up to speed with the rules....

define how pulling someones jersey is innnocent

Hulk Hands

flasher0030 wrote: »

Thanks for the answer to my opening post. Very useful.

I'm not sure how the thread led onto a battering of Aidan O'Shea's footie ability. I'd like to apologise to him for starting the thread, just in case he ever bumps in to me at Everleigh Garden nightclub. Ah no, that won't happen. He's still barred!!!

At least he got in to be fair! Word is he's the first Mayo man to get into a Dublin nightclub since Mortimer snuck in the back entrance in 04

keane2097

Hulk Hands wrote: »

At least he got in to be fair! Word is he's the first Mayo man to get into a Dublin nightclub since Mortimer snuck in the back entrance in 04

I can confirm this is 100% inaccurate :pac:

premierstone

kilmac14 wrote: »

Was at a match over the weekend, where a current Cork Senior panelist punched a fella into the chest and was only given a yellow, while he teammate got a blackcard for a jersey tug. How is that right that a fella can punch a fella in the chest and stay on the pitch, while an innocent jersey tug means a player has to leave the pitch....madness absolutely mad. Plus its fine at intercounty level were refs are confident with the rules, not so fine at Junior A, B, C, D level were refs arent excatly up to speed with the rules....

Surely any games involving Cork Senior panelists would have been off with them playing in a league Semi Final on the Sunday??

Do people really think it will help the end of a game, and cynical fouling which is what it was introduced for?.

I honestly don't think it'll make a bit of difference.

1. You're allowed replace the 3 players, so the losing team won't see any sort of numerical advantage for a while, if at all.

2. The team gets to sub the player, so he'll walk off the pitch and waste time which we all know GAA refs never add on properly to compensate.

It would work better if we used a stop clock to delay the substitution and if any black cards in the last 5mins were an auto red and no replacement issued.
Most teams will enter the end with 3 blacks remaining and to lose 4 players to one will take a while.

elefant

gilberto_eire wrote: »

Do people really think it will help the end of a game, and cynical fouling which is what it was introduced for?.

I honestly don't think it'll make a bit of difference.

1. You're allowed replace the 3 players, so the losing team won't see any sort of numerical advantage for a while, if at all.

2. The team gets to sub the player, so he'll walk off the pitch and waste time which we all know GAA refs never add on properly to compensate.

It would work better if we used a stop clock to delay the substitution and if any black cards in the last 5mins were an auto red and no replacement issued.
Most teams will enter the end with 3 blacks remaining and to lose 4 players to one will take a while.

You can still only sub 6 players max. Teams aren't going to avoid making subs through fatigue/injuries just so they can cynically foul without punishment in the last 5 minutes if needed.

keane2097

gilberto_eire wrote: »

Do people really think it will help the end of a game, and cynical fouling which is what it was introduced for?.

I honestly don't think it'll make a bit of difference.

1. You're allowed replace the 3 players, so the losing team won't see any sort of numerical advantage for a while, if at all.

2. The team gets to sub the player, so he'll walk off the pitch and waste time which we all know GAA refs never add on properly to compensate.

It would work better if we used a stop clock to delay the substitution and if any black cards in the last 5mins were an auto red and no replacement issued.
Most teams will enter the end with 3 blacks remaining and to lose 4 players to one will take a while.

Teams almost never get to the last five minutes without having made four or five subs.

The delay to the game for walking off the pitch will be nullified from 2015 when they introduce the hooter system.

It's an incremental improvement, it's not meant to fix every problem that ever has or will arise in GAA, but it should help. Probably a lot.

elefant

elefant wrote: »

You can still only sub 6 players max. Teams aren't going to avoid making subs through fatigue/injuries just so they can cynically foul without punishment in the last 5 minutes if needed.

Fair enough, but teams will rarely use all 6 before crunch time hits.

In a game where they'll play a role, it'll be close so most managers wouldn't use all his subs if things are going reasonably well.
Then with the addition of the card, I'm sure more managers will hold at least 2 subs for the exact purpose of replacing black carded players.

But again it still comes down to the time that'll be wasted with players strolling off the pitch.

The GAA has to be the WORST organisation for time wasting that's not adequately replaced.
You get a 5 minute injury along with the rest of the stuff and 2/3 mins is added on and played to the button.

Players will waste a good 2/3 minutes(accounting for 3 subs/3 black cards) in total between getting the cards and getting off the pitch that the losing team will lose any incentive in most cases to close the gap as the time runs out.

slingerz

The black card is all fine and dandy for intercounty where you will have decent referee's and linesmen involved. the problem exists at club level and specifically the lower level that you go to where the worst referees will interpret these rules completely incorrectly and adversely affect matches in that regards.

keane2097

slingerz wrote: »

The black card is all fine and dandy for intercounty where you will have decent referee's and linesmen involved. the problem exists at club level and specifically the lower level that you go to where the worst referees will interpret these rules completely incorrectly and adversely affect matches in that regards.

Sounds like an argument for having no rules at all at club level to me if the refs are too crap to apply them.

Hulk Hands

keane2097 wrote: »

I can confirm this is 100% inaccurate :pac:

Well I did hear a story about 3 lads managing to get by the Coppers bouncers after the '12 All Ireland. They were promptly thrown out though after going to the bar and ordering 3 cans of bulmers and a packet of chipsticks

elefant

Hulk Hands wrote: »

Well I did hear a story about 3 lads managing to get by the Coppers bouncers after the '12 All Ireland. They were promptly thrown out though after going to the bar and ordering 3 cans of bulmers and a packet of chipsticks

I heard it was linden village and chicaroos.

CrabRevolution

GBXI wrote: »

Not that I've popped in here just to have a rant at the GAA, but it shows you how incompetent the administrators are when this wasn't originally written into the new rules. I've lost count of the amount of goal-scoring opportunities that have been denied by cynical pushes, jersey pulls, or poor tackling. Makes me really think that the rule changes were heavily influenced by Joe Brolly's rant against Sean Cavanagh last year.

You'd be wrong so. The black card was approved at congress in March 2013, Cavanagh's tackle occured in August 2013. Unless the GAA actually predicted that tackle 5 months in advance, the 2 are totally unconnected.

Boom__Boom

gilberto_eire wrote: »

Fair enough, but teams will rarely use all 6 before crunch time hits.

In a game where they'll play a role, it'll be close so most managers wouldn't use all his subs if things are going reasonably well.
Then with the addition of the card, I'm sure more managers will hold at least 2 subs for the exact purpose of replacing black carded players.

But again it still comes down to the time that'll be wasted with players strolling off the pitch.

The GAA has to be the WORST organisation for time wasting that's not adequately replaced.
You get a 5 minute injury along with the rest of the stuff and 2/3 mins is added on and played to the button.

Players will waste a good 2/3 minutes(accounting for 3 subs/3 black cards) in total between getting the cards and getting off the pitch that the losing team will lose any incentive in most cases to close the gap as the time runs out.

In fairness efforts are being made to tackle the timewasting issue by introducing the hooter system.

However the rules that were initially planned for Championship 2014 which would have meant that substitutions wouldnt have stopped the game clock were shown to be less than perfect when trialled in the Sigerson and Fitzgibbon so the GAA put the changes to the time-keeping on hold until 2015 when they hopefully will have new adjusted rules will hopefully sort this out.

kilmac14

premierstone wrote: »

Surely any games involving Cork Senior panelists would have been off with them playing in a league Semi Final on the Sunday??

As I said he was a Cork senior panelist, he was named in the squad against Kerry but wasnt condsidered for the Dublin game as he decided the play with his club instead

kilmac14

bruschi wrote: »

define how pulling someones jersey is innnocent

Well in fairness the player in question, just tugged the jersey of one of our players and he was blackcarded, while the cork senior panelist struck one of our players straight into the face in front of the linesman and was only given a yellow. Now im full sure a striking action is a red and I play Junior football and this type of thing occurs regularly where Cork players get more protection than ordinary club players

harpsman

MayoSalmon wrote: »

So complicated and so unncessary.

Cynical foul should be a yellow....another cynical foul should also be a yellow...resulting in a RED.

There was nothing wrong with the previous system...it just was not implemented correctly.

Ah cmon-youre joking surely. There was plenty wrong with the previous system,theres plenty wrong with the new system as well but it might be a slight improvement. I do have major issues with it though,which ive been through before.
TBH I would have preferred the introduction of the time keeping system they have in rugby with the ref stopping the clock for injuries,when theres a "melee",substitutions and when he wastes 30 seconds talking to a player while booking him when its obvious why hes booking him and the offending player is delighted to have more time wasted. That to me would be a bigger improvement than the deeply flawed black card.