Dog warden entering property-allowed?

Goat the dote

Hi.
A "dog warden" (not sure if it was genuine or not) was skulking around our ara. I live beside family and this warden went snooping around the garden, to their dog pen, and started whistling at our dog pen. He then knocked on the door and asked about dog licences.
Can they just enter property and snoop around without permission?

Galway K9

Goat the dote wrote: »

Hi.
A "dog warden" (not sure if it was genuine or not) was skulking around our ara. I live beside family and this warden went snooping around the garden, to their dog pen, and started whistling at our dog pen. He then knocked on the door and asked about dog licences.
Can they just enter property and snoop around without permission?

If its private property it is trespassing unless he has a court order and escorted by gardai it is illegal.

Tranceypoo

No they bloomin well can't! I'd be very wary, there seem to be a lot of stories about dogs being stolen from peoples gardens etc etc, I'd keep an eye on your dog and let your neighbours know as well!

Goat the dote

No court order and no Garda escort. Ill let them know thank you. My husband was furious to hear that, the neighbour is his mother who would have been there alone.

time lord

Goat the dote wrote: »

Hi.
A "dog warden" (not sure if it was genuine or not) was skulking around our ara. I live beside family and this warden went snooping around the garden, to their dog pen, and started whistling at our dog pen. He then knocked on the door and asked about dog licences.
Can they just enter property and snoop around without permission?

Yes a dog warden can enter any property other than a dwelling. The defination of a dwelling is not in the control of dogs act but it reasonable to assume its the house and gardens. It is very reasonable for a dog warden to enter private property though how else would one reach the front door? The questions you pose are interwoven into a senario where you don't know who was on your property. It would be a very silly warden who would go straight to a back garden for instance.
Wardens also have to have valid I.d on their person too ready to show anyone they are dealing with.
The post I fear will turn into dog warden bashing set of replys. So let's be straight we don't know if it was a dog warden. Calling for a dog is not a crime.
I would say though a warden without clothing to readily identify themselves are not supporting near best practice, same goes for their vans. If they presented themselves as a dog warden I would ask for in date, valid i.d. and would tell them to please come to my door next time they have any business at my house and finally if they really peed me off at that moment I'd of asked them quick smart to leave and use the post for correspondence.

baby and crumble

Actually dog wardens are authorised to enter the grounds of a property to ascertain what conditions dogs are in. So can ISPCA Inspectors and the like. They can't seize any dogs from that property without the Gardai present, but they can ask for dogs to be surrendered. (That might just be Inspectors from ISPCA etc, not 100% sure). They don't need a warrant to do so.

From the citizens info website:

Dog wardens
Dog wardens have the power to request the name and address of a person suspected of an offence under the Control of Dogs Act. They also have the power to seize and detain any dog and to enter any premises with 5 or more dogs, other than a residence, to seize and detain a dog. You are guilty of an offence and can be arrested by a Garda if you obstruct a dog warden in the course of his or her work, refuse to give your name and address or give a false name and address.

muddypaws

baby and crumble wrote: »

Actually dog wardens are authorised to enter the grounds of a property to ascertain what conditions dogs are in. So can ISPCA Inspectors and the like. They can't seize any dogs from that property without the Gardai present, but they can ask for dogs to be surrendered. (That might just be Inspectors from ISPCA etc, not 100% sure). They don't need a warrant to do so.

From the citizens info website:

If you read the link that you posted, it actually says to enter any premises with 5 or more dogs, other than a residence So as this was the OP's home, i.e., residence, no they don't.

baby and crumble

muddypaws wrote: »

If you read the link that you posted, it actually says to enter any premises with 5 or more dogs, other than a residence So as this was the OP's home, i.e., residence, no they don't.

The residence is the actual building, not the surrounding property.

Not trying to be a bitch but I know people working in the area. Trust me, they can enter the grounds of your property, but can't go inside your house unless you give them permission, or they have a warrant and are accompanied by the Gardai.

DBB

baby and crumble wrote: »

Not trying to be a bitch but I know people working in the area. Trust me, they can enter the grounds of your property, but can't go inside your house unless you give them permission, or they have a warrant and are accompanied by the Gardai.

The Control of Dogs Act 1986 refers only to the "dwelling". A dwelling or residence is considered in Irish law to include the curtilage of the house, which is the garden or yard directly attached to the house and used as such by the residents of the house. Any member of the public is entitled to enter your property if they are simply making a call to your front door: this is not trespass. But veer away from this condition of access and you're into dodgy turf.
So if a warden, or any other officer of the State enters the curtilage (other than accessing the front door) without permission or warrant, they are themselves breaking the law. Entering a dwelling/curtilage requires a serious amount of power, and I know of no other officers of the State that can do so without warrant, or without a member of AGS, other than the AGS themselves under some very specific circumstances. Even at that, off the top of my head I'm not savvy enough with the powers of the AGS to be 100% sure that they can enter the curtilage at all, for any reason, without warrant.. I stand to be corrected on this in relation to AGS. However, I'm pretty familiar with the powers of non-AGS law enforcement officers in Ireland, and they cannot enter a curilage without permission/warrant.
ISPCA Inspectors have no powers whatsoever, unless that has been/will be changed by the new Welfare Act, which I haven't quite digested in full yet.
That some non-AGS officers enter curtilages and get away with it is contrary to the law, and a potentially big problem if the officers enter the wrong person's curtilage!

time lord

DBB wrote: »

The Control of Dogs Act 1986 refers only to the "dwelling". A dwelling or residence is considered in Irish law to include the curtilage of the house, which is the garden or yard directly attached to the house and used as such by the residents of the house. Any member of the public is entitled to enter your property if they are simply making a call to your front door: this is not trespass. But veer away from this condition of access and you're into dodgy turf.
So if a warden, or any other officer of the State enters the curtilage (other than accessing the front door) without permission or warrant, they are themselves breaking the law. Entering a dwelling/curtilage requires a serious amount of power, and I know of no other officers of the State that can do so without warrant, or without a member of AGS, other than the AGS themselves under some very specific circumstances. Even at that, off the top of my head I'm not savvy enough with the powers of the AGS to be 100% sure that they can enter the curtilage at all, for any reason, without warrant.. I stand to be corrected on this in relation to AGS. However, I'm pretty familiar with the powers of non-AGS law enforcement officers in Ireland, and they cannot enter a curilage without permission/warrant.
ISPCA Inspectors have no powers whatsoever, unless that has been/will be changed by the new Welfare Act, which I haven't quite digested in full yet.
That some non-AGS officers enter curtilages and get away with it is contrary to the law, and a potentially big problem if the officers enter the wrong person's curtilage!

A lot of sound advice there. We have to understand that reading a piece of legislation does not mean we are all understanding the same meaning out of it. Sometimes that is only solved when a case is ruled on. There is no hard and fast explanation of a dwelling in Irish law and many a good barrister would debate the fact that one does not dwell in ones garden. Taking meanings from other acts will not always be agreed upon in court from what's an abandoned car to when is the 20 acres about a country house curtilage, a dwelling, farm fields, the farmers brothers property separate to the house etc.
There are other officers who can enter a private dwelling without a warrant or any a.g.s. with them. They usually have nothing to do with animals and are authorised under the Waste Management Act. They must give 24 hrs written notice and then they are entitled to enter a private dwelling. That's just one example I know of but the law is full nuances and such. Having laws and exercising them is sometime a revelation to the public when they are little known. That is why it is so important for authorised officers to know their law when dealing with the public. The Irish public are very knowledgeable on many aspects of law but when enforcing aspects of law for them you are better off knowing more than them. Ps as an example who can tell me other than a Garda who can arrest you? Some people think its 100% only the Gardaí.

muddypaws

time lord wrote: »

Ps as an example who can tell me other than a Garda who can arrest you? Some people think its 100% only the Gardaí.

Customs officer? I've always been under the impression that they have more powers than AGS.

That link still states more than 5 dogs though, so if you have less than 5, whether in a garden or in the house, does that not mean they can't enter?

sligoface

Wouldn't be the first time I've heard about dog wardens being overzealous in their license checks.

Pro Hoc Vice

time lord wrote: »

Ps as an example who can tell me other than a Garda who can arrest you? Some people think its 100% only the Gardaí.

The usual way a Garda gets a power of arrest is statute. Both the misuse of drugs act and road traffic act give right to arrest. But the main right to arrest is section 4 of the Criminal Law Act which in fact allows any person arrest another who they believe is guilty of committing an arrestable offence.

That is defined as

“arrestable offence” means an offence for which a person of full capacity and not previously convicted may, under or by virtue of any enactment, be punished by imprisonment for a term of five years or by a more severe penalty and includes an attempt to commit any such offence;

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2005/09/29/00103.asp

http://www.revenue.ie/en/about/publications/rev_powers.pdf page 106

So in answer to your question anyone can arrest another in certain circumstances. AGS have broad power of arrest mostly by statute.

DBB

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

So in answer to your question anyone can arrest another in certain circumstances. AGS have broad power of arrest mostly by statute.

I could be wrong, but I think time lord is referring to other Authorised Officers of the State that have powers of arrest by statute, other than AGS.

Pro Hoc Vice

DBB wrote: »

I could be wrong, but I think time lord is referring to other Authorised Officers of the State that have powers of arrest by statute, other than AGS.

Yes see my link to revenue.

DBB

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Yes see my link to revenue.

And they're not the only ones either!

Edited to add: I've only had time for a quick glance through that revenue link, and haven't found any mention of revenue officers having the power of arrest under statute. I have found mention of AGS doing the arresting for them, but no mention of revenue officers doing the arresting themselves. Have I missed it somewhere?

Pro Hoc Vice

DBB wrote: »

And they're not the only ones either!

Yes ticket inspectors on public transport have statutory powers of arrest as an example but AGS have the most powers to arrest.

Pro Hoc Vice

DBB wrote: »

And they're not the only ones either!

Edited to add: I've only had time for a quick glance through that revenue link, and haven't found any mention of revenue officers having the power of arrest under statute. I have found mention of AGS doing the arresting for them, but no mention of revenue officers doing the arresting themselves. Have I missed it somewhere?

They may have some newer powers but in general AGS have the most power to arrest. I'm not too sure Revenue have a stand alone power to arrest except in cases of a person getting in the way of revenue then AGS step in.

But in general powers of arrest are limited as a person has a constitutional right to freedom.

DBB

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Yes ticket inspectors on public transport have statutory powers of arrest as an example but AGS have the most powers to arrest.

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

They may have some newer powers but in general AGS have the most power to arrest. I'm not too sure Revenue have a stand alone power to arrest except in cases of a person getting in the way of revenue then AGS step in.

But in general powers of arrest are limited as a person has a constitutional right to freedom.

Sorry if I'm being a pain, but I can't find any powers for ticket inspectors to arrest a person (under statute), all I can find in the legislation is that AGS make any arrests on behalf of CIE, as they do for revenue inspectors. I have found some anecdotal discussion that inspectors can hold passengers until AGS arrive, but I can't find it in the statute books. Can you clarify this re CIE inspectors? It'd save me trawling through the various Transport Acts, amendments and bye-laws if you have this information to hand!
In other words (and I may stand corrected on this), neither CIE ticket inspectors nor revenue inspectors have powers of arrest under statute... Which is what time lord appears to be looking for, as opposed to the general power of citizen's arrest.

And now to get back to Time lord's question, I know one State agency whose officers have powers of arrest under statute in certain situations, and that's the fisheries service. Have you any more that you know of?

Pro Hoc Vice

DBB wrote: »

Sorry if I'm being a pain, but I can't find any powers for ticket inspectors to arrest a person (under statute), all I can find in the legislation is that AGS make any arrests on behalf of CIE, as they do for revenue inspectors. I have found some anecdotal discussion that inspectors can hold passengers until AGS arrive, but I can't find it in the statute books. Can you clarify this re CIE inspectors? It'd save me trawling through the various Transport Acts, amendments and bye-laws if you have this information to hand!
In other words (and I may stand corrected on this), neither CIE ticket inspectors nor revenue inspectors have powers of arrest under statute... Which is what time lord appears to be looking for, as opposed to the general power of citizen's arrest.

And now to get back to Time lord's question, I know one State agency whose officers have powers of arrest under statute in certain situations, and that's the fisheries service. Have you any more that you know of?

The bye laws contain a right to detain if the person does not show identification or the inspector is not sure of identity. I am using detention and arrest interchangeably as in effect they both deny liberty. I'll try and find the legislation.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/About-Us/Dublin-Bus-Bye-Laws/Enforcement-Procedures/

I believe Irish Rail and LUAS have the same power.

Without a trawl through the legislation I'm not sure of any other statute powers but I guess they exist. SFPO have power as do naval personal who by virtue of their service are SFPO's again the power is limited in that as soon as possible the arrested boat must be transferred to AGS on making port. Not sure of their powers on land as SFPO's.

DBB

Thank you for that link to the bye-law, interesting stuff.

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Without a trawl through the legislation I'm not sure of any other statute powers but I guess they exist. SFPO have power as do naval personal who by virtue of their service are SFPO's again the power is limited in that as soon as possible the arrested boat must be transferred to AGS on making port. Not sure of their powers on land as SFPO's.

I was just about to clarify that it is inland fisheries protection officers that have powers of arrest under statute, as well as sea fisheries protection officers. Inland FPO powers of arrest are limited to specific circumstances when the offender refuses to stop the illegal activity, or refuses to give a name and address.
It goes without saying that authorised officers must, having arrested the person, deliver them to a Garda station, as where else can the offender continue to be detained? As such, the delivery of an arrested person to AGS can hardly be termed as a "limited power", as even Gardai have to return arrested people to the station for continued detention!
Leaving specific details aside, the fact remains, AGS are not the only State officers who are authorised to carry out arrests under statute, which is was I believe the question being posed in the first place!