Pub open Good Friday

wilddarts

The annual "can you not go without drink for one day" chestnut, ha. Just because some people (myself included) would prefer the option of going out with friends for a drink any night of the year doesn't mean we are all roaring alcoholics or have a bad attitude to alcohol. Hence why I don't drink on Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Thursdays and almost all Sundays in a year. I do however like to go out ( and dare I say it.... drink alcohol!!) on Friday and Saturday nights as this is when is most convenient for socialising for me and my friends. But then again I'm someone who would prefer to go to the pub tomorrow night so I'll get back to necking my bottles of gin and leave the "holier than thou" in peace.

Snake

me89 wrote: »

Why does the church have the right to say we cant drink that day?

The law is a government one, not one of the church

Snake

Did anyone ever think that the people who complain about it are only complaining... Because well **** it they can? If it's such an unfair thing for you then go and say it to someone who has power to change it.. A T.D or something

catbear

retrogamefan wrote: »

The law is a government one, not one of the church

It may be a state law but it's based on a religious tradition, hardly in the interest of a secular society. In this instance the line between church and state is permeable. There is no reason for the state to prohibit what it sanctions normally except the expectations of a religion.

RobertKK

I suspect Good Friday saves the state money in terms of the health sector, a breather for emergency workers who deal with alcohol related problems whether in A&E and crime.

The ban shortens a long weekend for emergency workers given a lot of problems are associated with alcohol.

Alcohol is easily available and those who need their alcohol will have bought it as if an eternal ban was happening.

I much prefer my tea....

RobertKK

catbear wrote: »

As far as I can see the biggest religion is Consumerism but the christian holidays which can number as many as 111 a year are just a denial of the fact.

The number of holy days of obligation that a Catholic have to observe as holy days are-
January 6th
March 17
August 15th
November 1st
December 8th
December 25th

111 is a slight exaggeration

Good Friday is not a holy day of obligation. The state chooses to have the ban and I think it is good for people who have to deal with the consequences of alcohol.

kikel

So, Who's drunk?

Do you think if pubs were to open today that it would just become like any other Friday and we'd actually be still looking at the clock for 5pm. The fact the pubs are closed makes it special and we get the day off.

catbear

RobertKK wrote: »

The number of holy days of obligation that a Catholic have to observe as holy days are-
January 6th
March 17
August 15th
November 1st
December 8th
December 25th

111 is a slight exaggeration

Good Friday is not a holy day of obligation. The state chooses to have the ban and I think it is good for people who have to deal with the consequences of alcohol.

I was quoting a medieval average from France, what the local total was I have no idea. Of the days you've noted only Patricks day and Xmas day are public holiday? I'm not counting the easter monday as it's not fixed.

As for catholicism you could double that list from what I've googled. Just shows you how much of a heathen I am. I guess a visit form the God squad would sort me out.


Anyway it's good Friday, in memory of a person who may or may not have existed, or if they did were adapted and elaborated upon to suit the agenda of a disintegrating Empire, l salute you sir and say let's get hammered!

Cabaal

kikel wrote: »

The fact the pubs are closed makes it special and we get the day off.

But its not a bank holiday so many business as operate as normal, certainly more then on a bank holiday anyway. Outside of the pubs being closed and off license not selling its really not a special day

kikel

Cabaal wrote: »

But its not a bank holiday so many business as operate as normal, certainly more then on a bank holiday anyway. Outside of the pubs being closed and off license not selling its really not a special day

I'd consider it a special day. Btw im not religous at all. Also spent most of the day working. But it is special as a large number of people are actually off. Just look at all the people sitting here in Castle park. The more people push for pubs to open the more a day like today becimes just another friday.

Remember 20 years as ago where everywhere would be shut at 3pm.

Give it another 20 years and today will just be another Friday.

tedobrien98

catbear wrote: »

Anyway it's good Friday, in memory of a person who may or may not have existed,

Just to be accurate (or annoying and pedantic, whatever you want to call it), Jesus existed whether you like or not. The Romans have it written down in some book somewhere that they crucified him and the Jews have him down as a blasphemer. Whether that happened on the first Friday after the first full moon after the 21st of March, and whether he was the son of God or first cousin of the flying spaghetti monster is open to interpretation.... :P
You're welcome!

As for Holy Days of obligation, add 52 onto whatever ye calculated there because a Holy Day of obligation is any day you're obliged to go to Mass, and a Catholic is obliged to go to Mass every Sunday...... Just to be reeeeeally off topic and annoying.

Snake

tedobrien98 wrote: »

Just to be accurate (or annoying and pedantic, whatever you want to call it), Jesus existed whether you like or not. The Romans have it written down in some book somewhere that they crucified him and the Jews have him down as a blasphemer.

Just because it's written down doesn't make it true

tedobrien98

retrogamefan wrote: »

Just because it's written down doesn't make it true

Does the same rule apply for all history we take as fact from the same period so?

Snake

tedobrien98 wrote: »

Does the same rule apply for all history we take as fact from the same period so?

Yes... Actually.. Just because the Romans say they murdered the son of god doesn't make it so.. Perhaps they were self aware of how they'd be recorded in history by saying such a thing and therefore decided to write it down... History is just a story... Backed up by things that were written... I don't tend to believe much unless there's a live witness who can say well yeah this happened... Maybe that's just me.. I'm not saying it's untrue, I'm just saying there's no proof other than a script that says so..

RobertKK

catbear wrote: »

I was quoting a medieval average from France, what the local total was I have no idea. Of the days you've noted only Patricks day and Xmas day are public holiday? I'm not counting the easter monday as it's not fixed.

As for catholicism you could double that list from what I've googled. Just shows you how much of a heathen I am. I guess a visit form the God squad would sort me out.


Anyway it's good Friday, in memory of a person who may or may not have existed, or if they did were adapted and elaborated upon to suit the agenda of a disintegrating Empire, l salute you sir and say let's get hammered!

It is sad you judge a group of people - priests in this case as all being like the man you posted in that picture.

Maybe we can judge all here in Kilkenny by the Kilkenny incest case , make out everyone in Kilkenny is having sex with family members and that we are all raping one another given we had the Kilkenny rape case.

We can all choose to judge everyone by the worst, but that would make us blind to the truth that there are also good.

It makes no difference to me if people drink today. The fact is there are a lot of livers in this country which would like a rest.
From a year ago:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/most-with-liver-disease-are-not-alcoholics-229256.html

“Habitual” drinkers, not alcoholics, account for most people with alcohol-related liver disease.
Experts are particularly concerned at the rise in the number of young people — up almost three-fold — and women with the potentially fatal disease.

From earlier this month
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/liver-disease-is-only-one-of-nations-top-five-killers-on-increase-30140254.html

The fact is the sale of alcohol should really be far more restricted than it is, and a base cost for a unit of alcohol brought in, with the cheap selling of alcohol banned.

Snake

RobertKK wrote: »

It is sad you judge a group of people - priests in this case as all being like the man you posted in that picture.

Maybe we can judge all here in Kilkenny by the Kilkenny incest case , make out everyone in Kilkenny is having sex with family members and that we are all raping one another given we had the Kilkenny rape case.

We can all choose to judge everyone by the worst, but that would make us blind to the truth that there are also good.

It makes no difference to me if people drink today. The fact is there are a lot of livers in this country which would like a rest.
From a year ago:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/most-with-liver-disease-are-not-alcoholics-229256.html



From earlier this month
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/liver-disease-is-only-one-of-nations-top-five-killers-on-increase-30140254.html

The fact is the sale of alcohol should really be far more restricted than it is, and a base cost for a unit of alcohol brought in, with the cheap selling of alcohol banned.

They won't do it because they couldn't deal with the headache it brought along. It's madness they'll add a bloody tax to fat and sugary foods but god forbid you touched the drink

catbear

Cabaal wrote: »

But its not a bank holiday so many business as operate as normal, certainly more then on a bank holiday anyway. Outside of the pubs being closed and off license not selling its really not a special day

That makes it even more annoying, we work a secular day but are restricted by one religions preference, that only justifies other religions expecting the state to enforce their religious prohibitions on everyone else.

catbear

Constantine instructed the bishops to give him unity regardless of how. Anyone can believe what they want about RCC but forced conversions and burning of heretics has been the norm in church history, the last execution for heresy being in the 19th century.

A friend who would identify her self as RCC was complaining that the church wasn't living up to its vow of poverty, I a heathen had to explain to her that the RCC never had a vow of poverty! Some orders do but not the church.

catbear

RobertKK wrote: »

It is sad you judge a group of people - priests in this case as all being like the man you posted in that picture.

Maybe we can judge all here in Kilkenny by the Kilkenny incest case , make out everyone in Kilkenny is having sex with family members and that we are all raping one another given we had the Kilkenny rape case.

We can all choose to judge everyone by the worst, but that would make us blind to the truth that there are also good.

It makes no difference to me if people drink today. The fact is there are a lot of livers in this country which would like a rest.
From a year ago:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/most-with-liver-disease-are-not-alcoholics-229256.html



From earlier this month
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/liver-disease-is-only-one-of-nations-top-five-killers-on-increase-30140254.html

The fact is the sale of alcohol should really be far more restricted than it is, and a base cost for a unit of alcohol brought in, with the cheap selling of alcohol banned.

The difference between a poison and a cure can be dosage.
Too much religion will have you burning heretics or flying passenger planes into buildings.

RobertKK

catbear wrote: »

The difference between a poison and a cure can be dosage.
Too much religion will have you burning heretics or flying passenger planes into buildings.

You have a strange view of religion.

It was the law of the monarchs that had people burning, Joan of Arc was very religious, she was burned.

So you would put all very devout and religious Muslims as being the same as people who fly planes into buildings?
A quarter or so of the world is Muslim, so about under 2 billion people, how many cases of flying planes into buildings can you name excluding 9/11 where you can link 72 virgins in heaven to?

Hate towards religion leads to blindness and Fr Kevin Reynolds affairs happening, where good people are falsely put into the same bracket as those who did wrong.

Like burning heretics, it is the law of the land that has alcohol sales restricted on Good Friday.

catbear

RobertKK wrote: »

You have a strange view of religion.

It was the law of the monarchs that had people burning, Joan of Arc was very religious, she was burned.

So you would put all very devout and religious Muslims as being the same as people who fly planes into buildings?
A quarter or so of the world is Muslim, so about under 2 billion people, how many cases of flying planes into buildings can you name excluding 9/11 where you can link 72 virgins in heaven to?

Hate towards religion leads to blindness and Fr Kevin Reynolds affairs happening, where good people are falsely put into the same bracket as those who did wrong.

Like burning heretics, it is the law of the land that has alcohol sales restricted on Good Friday.

You're hilarious, did you think the inquisition was a quiz show?

Sleeper12

England!

Einhard

catbear wrote: »

The difference between a poison and a cure can be dosage.
Too much religion will have you burning heretics or flying passenger planes into buildings.

Silly remark to make. Billions of seriously devout people in the world, and only a tiny minority ever act violently because of their beliefs.

RobertKK

catbear wrote: »

You're hilarious, did you think the inquisition was a quiz show?

You are among many who has fallen for propaganda, the victors write the history. England had the printing presses and made the Spanish out to be savages.
Historians who have examined the records will tell you the inquisition was actually the most most just system of law in Europe at that time and despite the myths that many believe, in total 1% of those before the inquisition actually died.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/jun/16/artsandhumanities.internationaleducationnews

Professor Agostino Borromeo, a historian of Catholicism at the Sapienza University in Rome and curator of the 783-page volume released yesterday, only 1% of the 125,000 people tried by church tribunals as suspected heretics in Spain were executed. Other experts told journalists at the Vatican yesterday that many of the thousands of executions conventionally attributed to the church were in fact carried out by non-church tribunals.

Spain and England were at war, the victors wrote the history, the non informed believed the propaganda, which has lasted for centuries.

It is like the lies about Hitler's Pope, this came about from a play the soviets put on in Berlin in 1956.
Yet a Rabbi, a Jew said this is all lies and that the Pope at the time saved upto 832,000 Jews by working quietly to get them to safety, that 3,000 Jews were housed at Castel Gandolfo and that Jewish children were born there.
It is easy to blacken the name of a person even if false, much harder for that person to get their good name back as lies breathes suspicion, the no smoke without fire syndrome.


One can blame religion for the alcohol ban on Good Friday, but then one can look and see if the right authority is being blamed.
The ban exists because of the state, not religion. The state could change it in the morning if they felt like it, they clearly don't feel the need to.

As the historians show, the church has being blamed for thousands of deaths it was not responsible for, but the lies make a better story if one hates religion, and spreading ignorance is what does if one keeps propagating the lies, even though they might not know they are spreading lies. They have believed the lies they were told by someone else.

catbear

Hilarious and delusional robert.
How you explain away the counter reformation and the coverup of sex abuse. I suppose you think the Ferns report and all testimony from victims are just attacks on the church.

All you've illustrated is that the church facilitates the process, including the propagandists like yourself who'd have us believe that the church is blameless in all things.

It's a human institution and is fallible as any political power. You want me to believe that the ban on alcohol is somehow inspired independent of RCC influence, what next? That sex abuse in the church was caused a direct result of external secular forces? That society is the churches enemy?

Perhaps you've imbibed too much church wine and think you aren't drunk and everyone else is.

RobertKK

catbear wrote: »

Hilarious and delusional robert.
How you explain away the counter reformation and the coverup of sex abuse. I suppose you think the Ferns report and all testimony from victims are just attacks on the church.

All you've illustrated is that the church facilitates the process, including the propagandists like yourself who'd have us believe that the church is blameless in all things.

It's a human institution and is fallible as any political power. You want me to believe that the ban on alcohol is somehow inspired independent of RCC influence, what next? That sex abuse in the church was caused a direct result of external secular forces? That society is the churches enemy?

Perhaps you've imbibed too much church wine and think you aren't drunk and everyone else is.

The inquisition had nothing to do with sex abuse, but the inquisition was actually the most just form of law in Europe at that time. The archives studied by historians and other experts show this.

Martin Luther had problems with indulgences, but is this any different than giving some money to a priest to say a mass for a loved one whose anniversary it might be?
Martin Luther had his issues, he dealt with them as he saw fit. One can agree or disagree with him.

The Ferns report was good as it brought to light wrong that had been done and helped others to expose the truth.
Quite clearly some bishops didn't act properly over what was their domain and the reports were necessary.
But that is one side of the reports, did the report say all priests were sex abusers?
This is my problem, I believe it is just as wrong to brand people wrongly when they have not done wrong. This is a form of abuse too.
The thing is we don't want any abuse of people, but making out everything with the church is wrong and only seeing priests as abusers is a form of abuse itself, and I just can't accept a priest if he is an abuser and I can't accept a person who only views all priests as being part of the problem. If we allow abuse in any form, we allow it to spread, this is what the silence of abuse in the church did and this has been replicated elsewhere where abuse of different forms is not tackled.

Catbear, when you go to church what child protection policies have noticed that changed since it all came to light? Do you actually know since you don't go to church? Are you living in the past where it was easy for a child abuser to join the church knowing it meant easy access to young people due to the trust given to priests?

There was a report on child safety in this country and it was said in it that the church now has the highest child safety standards and their standards are higher than the state's child safety standards.
Going by you, one would think nothing has changed.
btw a large crowd at mass today and I noticed over the past few years a lot more going to early morning mass.

I have not claimed the church is blameless. It is humans who lead the church on Earth, all humans do wrong of some sort. Some of the wrongs done by some are unforgiveable but if your parent murdered someone, does that make all in your family murderers? This is the logic some apply to the church when it comes to sex abuse.
I find that senseless, and a very uneducated way to view the world, For you it is black and white, for others they can see the black, they can see the white but can also see the grey in between and know you can't paint all with the one brush colour.
Pope's go to confession to, they know they are human and like the rest of us are not blameless in life.

Some people also don't understand papal infallibility. Papal infallibility doesn't mean everything the Pope says is infallible. There are very few things the Pope says that are and must be ex cathedra and ex cathedra statements tend to be used by the Pope in encyclials.

Tell the government party councillors that you need alcohol on Good Friday, how the need for alcohol is such an important issue in your life and you felt discriminated because the church is keeping the law in place.
OK they might think to themselves 'haha good this person is blaming the wrong people, they have no power to change the law, our parliamentary party in government do, but let this person blame religion, saves us the hassle, just agree with this person and say we will do what we can'.
I think they will not put it at a high priority, when they are trying to bring in more restrictive alcohol laws due to the problems and cost it brings to society.

I am being a realist here, some terrible things happened under the church, but on the other side of the scales some great things have been achieved because of the church. A lot want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, because all they see is the dirty bathwater.
I think one would have to be drunk if they cannot see the baby when the bathwater was being thrown out.
For the record, I don't drink church wine and don't drink any other alcohol for that matter.
Who is the person drinking the alcohol here? Is it I or is it you?

catbear

Robert you would have us believe that the Church is innocent in the inquisition, that any part it had was involuntary.

Your version of history is some of the worst denial propaganda I've ever read regarding Rome. I know there's people who say the holocaust and Irish famine never happened so I shouldn't be surprised to find people as misled about the church.
You would have us believe that the public prohibition on alcohol sales on good friday isn't inspired by the church.

Anyone could quickly see with a quick search that Rome was active in war, it even had a warrior pope but I'm guessing you'll dismiss the churches own version of that for some sanitised version where it was clean of any blemish. What need would they have for a swiss guard?

You say the church has learned and if I went to church I'd see that yet I know that where they can they challenge family planning laws and sex education. You know your church so I'll let you deny that this still happens and then I'll give the link.

You're not a realist, you just see the church as you find it in Ireland now in Ireland. I don't know how old you are but I still remember the real fear that people felt, I remember the sports car driving priest dropping into my mother asking why the envelop hadn't been dropped in when we really couldn't afford it.

How many children suffered at the hand of pedophiles protected by deluded fantasists like you? I've lived under the churches shadow long enough, I don't owe them another chance, your church owe me and those you've affected respect and I can think of no greater gesture than getting out of our secular lives. My secular ethos allows me to tolerate you so now you learn to tolerate us.

RobertKK

catbear wrote: »

Robert you would have us believe that the Church is innocent in the inquisition, that any part it had was involuntary.

Your version of history is some of the worst denial propaganda I've ever read regarding Rome. I know there's people who say the holocaust and Irish famine never happened so I shouldn't be surprised to find people as misled about the church.
You would have us believe that the public prohibition on alcohol sales on good friday isn't inspired by the church.

Anyone could quickly see with a quick search that Rome was active in war, it even had a warrior pope but I'm guessing you'll dismiss the churches own version of that for some sanitised version where it was clean of any blemish. What need would they have for a swiss guard?

You say the church has learned and if I went to church I'd see that yet I know that where they can they challenge family planning laws and sex education. You know your church so I'll let you deny that this still happens and then I'll give the link.

You're not a realist, you just see the church as you find it in Ireland now in Ireland. I don't know how old you are but I still remember the real fear that people felt, I remember the sports car driving priest dropping into my mother asking why the envelop hadn't been dropped in when we really couldn't afford it.

How many children suffered at the hand of pedophiles protected by deluded fantasists like you? I've lived under the churches shadow long enough, I don't owe them another chance, your church owe me and those you've affected respect and I can think of no greater gesture than getting out of our secular lives. My secular ethos allows me to tolerate you so now you learn to tolerate us.

I did not say innocent in the inquisition, I said the most just form of law back then according to historians.
I think you will find you are the person misled, you confuse the most just form of law at that time with innocent. You choose to take the propaganda of the English at that time who were the enemies of the Spanish.
We can question who is misled here.
I have not denied history, I have read what the historians had to say. We can all believe your idea of history is to believe what is not true.
We know the famine happened and the holocaust happened, but even with the holocaust the Soviets had to make up propaganda about the church which many believed.
When it comes to people making up history I suggest you read this book by Rabbi Dalin.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Myth-Hitlers-Pope-Against/dp/0895260344
He shows how lies are propagated and believed by the mass public even though it is lies people are made believe.
Inside the cover the Rabbi condemns those who rewrote history to turn the Pope from a man who saved Jews to a man who helped Hitler.

From inside the cover of the book:

"Was Pope Pius XII secretly in league with Adolf Hitler? No, says Rabbi David G. Dalin - but there was a cleric in league with Hitler: the grand mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Amin al-Husseini. As Pope Pius XII worked to save Jews from the Nazis, the grand mufti became Hitler's staunch ally and a promoter of the Holocaust, with a legacy that feeds radical Islam today." "In this shocking and thoroughly documented book, Rabbi Dalin explodes the myth of Hitler's pope and condemns the myth-makers for not only rewriting history, but for denying the testimony of Holocaust survivors, hijacking the Holocaust for unseemly political ends, and ignoring the real threat to the Jewish people."

It is not the church misleading people on history, it is people like you who ignore historians, who believe propaganda and who is quite happy to believe the English who hated the Spanish when the lies of the inquisition came into existence.

The alcohol ban currently exists because of the state , so blaming religion now is what makes the argument about religion irrelevant. The only people with the power to change it is the state.

The church in the past and we should remember it was the past and times were different, did engage in wars when it allowed crusades, the battleground between Christianity and Islam. In reality it is no different to the proxy wars that exist today whether in Syria between the west/Sunni Muslims/terrorists and Russia/Shia Muslims/Syrian minorities or the tensions in Ukraine between the west and the East. Where different ideologies with strong power behind them meet, there tends to be tensions and one wants to extend their power and the other wants to repel it.

The Swiss Guard are there to protect the Pope, not for going to war.

We know the teachings of the church on family planning, abortion and when I went to school we had sex education. The church doesn't have to support contraception because you want it. .

I am old enough to remember when the Pope came to Ireland, but here again you are judging all priests by one who drove a sports car and wanted money from a family who couldn't afford it. That is your experience, but you let that experience generalise your views. That makes you biased in your views. Priests don't take a vow of poverty but I like priests who live a simple life. I wouldn't be happy with a priest who had an expensive car and obsessed with money and you would hear about the odd one, but then I know priests who aren't.
A realist can see both sides and know it is not black and white.

Your last paragraph is a disgrace. Tell me how I protected paedophiles? By going to church where a priest has been never accused of doing anything wrong?

All victims of abuse - whatever form of abuse deserve respect and to be believed until it can be definitely decided - whether in a court of law or DNA testing.

You talk about secular yet the state wants involvement in the confession box....

Einhard

catbear wrote: »

Hilarious and delusional robert.
How you explain away the counter reformation and the coverup of sex abuse. I suppose you think the Ferns report and all testimony from victims are just attacks on the church.

But he neve rproposed to "explain away" the Counter-Reformation or anything of the sort. You're placing words in his mouth.

catbear wrote: »

Robert you would have us believe that the Church is innocent in the inquisition, that any part it had was involuntary.

Your version of history is some of the worst denial propaganda I've ever read regarding Rome. I know there's people who say the holocaust and Irish famine never happened so I shouldn't be surprised to find people as misled about the church.

This is absolutely out of order. The poster you are denigrating here did no such thing. He merely pointed out that some of the accusations levelled against the Church are questionable. This is completely true, and not some effort to whitewash events or propogandise. If you can't respond to substance with substance, but rather seek to have a go at the poster and misattribute remarks, then perhaps you shouldn't bother respnd at all.

For what it's worth, I'm an atheist with a background in history- I've no love for the Church but I do have a healthy regard for good historicism, and your contempt for the former is overriding any regard you might have had for the latter.

Schindlers Pissed

RobertKK wrote: »

I suspect Good Friday saves the state money in terms of the health sector, a breather for emergency workers who deal with alcohol related problems whether in A&E and crime.

The ban shortens a long weekend for emergency workers given a lot of problems are associated with alcohol.

Alcohol is easily available and those who need their alcohol will have bought it as if an eternal ban was happening.

I much prefer my tea....

Unfortunately what seems to happen is people go hell for leather the following night and the Emergency Services seem to get two nights work rolled into one.