Water Charges - figures don't add up?

Victor

Call me Al wrote: »

How are they working this out in the context of people with their own septic tank system, who are not using public sewage schemes but who are using a water mains system and have a water meter? Is there a separate charge for public sewage? How do they differentiate between those households in terms of their bills?

You should expect a reduction of perhaps 40-60% in your bill. However, you will still need to pay for inspections and periodic cleaning.

antoobrien

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/households-facing-240-water-charge-under-coalition-plan-30250408.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/turning-on-the-tap-tax-what-the-water-charges-will-mean-for-you-1.1785641

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/households-face-average-water-bill-of-240-a-year-1.1785404

Phil gave the obligatory interview on the six-one news last night, these are the figures he mentioned:

The average usage per person is 78,000L per year (which works out 30L/day higher than anything I've seen)
30,000L/y free allowance to households
38,000L/y extra allowance for each child under 18

Also from the articles:
No standing charge for Primary residences, the regulator may decide to apply one to holiday/second homes (presumably not rental properties)
Certain low income groups to get €100 towards water bills
"people with an illness requiring high water usage will have their bills capped" - this could be open to abuse.
€200m fund for a "free first fix" scheme for leaks
The meter installation programme is due to cover with 80pc of homes covered by the end of 2015 "and virtually all done by mid-2016".
"Irish Water will also have to take into account poor quality of services – such as where "boil-water" warnings have to be applied."

The final pricing structure will not be known until August, billing starts in October with the first bill due in January (that sucks, money is tight enough in January as it is).

Edit: Found the press release on the department website - http://www.environ.ie/en/Environment/Water/WaterServices/News/MainBody,37946,en.htm

Victor

antoobrien wrote: »

The final pricing structure will not be known until August, billing starts in October with the first bill due in January (that sucks, money is tight enough in January as it is).

Save up for the next 7 months?

Sam Russell

Well, well, well.

If there is no standing charge, and the average bill is still €240, then it follows that the cost per CuM will be higher.

If there is a 'free' allowance, and the average bill is €240, then the cost per CuM will be higher.

If children are given a 'free' allowance, and the average bill is €240, then the cost per CuM will be higher.

As a consequence, the cost per CuM will climb from €1 per CuM to €2 per CuM. This will have a significant effect on consumption, for those who have a metered supply.

If I were doing this, I would have a standard charge for the first year of €25 per quarter, with water usage shown at €0 per CuM, but a note saying that next year the charge will be €xxx for that consumption. I would also have a minimum charge for usage below a certain level.

Victor

I think they are making tariff structure a little bit too complicated. It will be interesting to find out how they define "household" for the purpose of the free allowance - it would be better to allocate it per adult.

Will they be collecting PPSNs to determine that free allowances aren't being abused?

padrepio

antoobrien wrote: »

Also from the articles:
No standing charge for Primary residences, the regulator may decide to apply one to holiday/second homes (presumably not rental properties)
Certain low income groups to get €100 towards water bills
"people with an illness requiring high water usage will have their bills capped" - this could be open to abuse.
€200m fund for a "free first fix" scheme for leaks
The meter installation programme is due to cover with 80pc of homes covered by the end of 2015 "and virtually all done by mid-2016".
"Irish Water will also have to take into account poor quality of services – such as where "boil-water" warnings have to be applied."

Its these unanswered questions that do the govt no favour here, then need to be transparent here with such a transformation. Citizens of this country dont like dripfed information and political kite flying. Might be just the nature of the beast in govt projects. These unanswered questions are fairly basis stuff to get right from the project outset but when decisions become politicised then I fear for the worst

Re standing charge for non PPR(principal primary residence), good idea imo and like the property tax is another reason for people not to hold onto multiple properties for the sake of it.

Low income groups, was always going to be discounted, but should also be efficient in their water consumption. A lot of self employed people are deemed low income for tax purposes but that may not be the case in reality.

Illness/Disability - wide open to abuse bit like its welfare counterpart

Meter installation - instead of handing the keys out to Siteserv surely incentives should be put in for people to put them in themselves, get Irish Water out to QA the installation and put an incentive in for the DIY approach. Might get the rollout happening a lot faster.

Poor Quality of Service - This is where the Consumer association should be all over, people should not be paying for unsafe services. So in the case of boil notices, no way should people be paying Irish Water for that. Have Irish Water made available SLA's that they must abide by? If Irish Water breach their SLA's then citizens cannot be expected to pay. I know the counterargument from Irish Water is that they are being handed over a decrepit infrastructure but imo thats not good enough.

Still think the initiative is more positive than negative to be honest

antoobrien

padrepio wrote: »

Its these unanswered questions that do the govt no favour here, then need to be transparent here with such a transformation. Citizens of this country dont like dripfed information and political kite flying.

In this case there's no helping it because the prices haven't been set. Then the question is which do you want complete information later or the headline bits now?

Lets call a spade a spade, the information provided in the press release is good enough for most of the country as it gives them a rough idea of what it will cost.

padrepio wrote: »

Re standing charge for non PPR(principal primary residence), good idea imo and like the property tax is another reason for people not to hold onto multiple properties for the sake of it.

Nope, not multiple properties like the PPR. From the press release

There will be no standing charge for domestic customers for social and environmental reasons (a minimum charge may be applied to properties that are not permanently occupied - e.g. holiday homes);

There's no incentive to get rid of investment properties as the costs will be carried by the occupants.

padrepio wrote: »

Illness/Disability - wide open to abuse bit like its welfare counterpart

Charges to be capped for people with high water usage due to certain medical conditions (these conditions to be determined in consultation with the Minister for Health

Get your lobbying in now for Consumptusbeeritis.

padrepio wrote: »

Meter installation - instead of handing the keys out to Siteserv surely incentives should be put in for people to put them in themselves, get Irish Water out to QA the installation and put an incentive in for the DIY approach. Might get the rollout happening a lot faster.

And give a boost to local business.

padrepio wrote: »

Poor Quality of Service - This is where the Consumer association should be all over, people should not be paying for unsafe services. So in the case of boil notices, no way should people be paying Irish Water for that. Have Irish Water made available SLA's that they must abide by? If Irish Water breach their SLA's then citizens cannot be expected to pay.

The boil water notices and poorly performing water schemes (group or council) are the first things I'd go after. The trick is to get past the propaganda that most councils have been putting out to see who is really losing water.

marmurr1916

If average annual consumption per person is 78,000 litres, and the free allowance is 30,000 litres, with a price of €0.02 per litre, the average cost per person will be €96.00 per year.

Sam Russell

The consumption in our house (2 people) is 65 cum per person (as measured over 5 years by meter).

Hope that helps.

I think the annual 30 cum allowance is per billing.

Ogham

Some useful worked out figures here for water charges - http://www.moneyguideireland.com/metered-water-charges-how-much-will-they-be.html